The Big Picture: Destined for Disappointment, Part 2

Roxor

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So, is Bob saying that the balance is due to Obi-wan and Yoda expiring and Vader taking out the Emperor, and leaving Luke as a neutral Force user?

I do get the impression that he's saying that Luke's forging his own path makes him neutral, as opposed the the extreme good/evil of the other two factions.
 

BunnyKillBot

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Oct 23, 2010
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To all the people quoting 'balance to the force' as the culling of the Jedi,

Sorry, but that is an overly simplistic and quantitatively specific view of 'balance' to the 'force' as an unknown and unknowable quotient.

If the force is a plank about some pivot, your analogy assumes the pivot is central and the quantities of jedi/sith are the weights on either end. None of this is known or stated anywhere.

Five thousand feathers weigh the same as one brick
One feather can balance a brick with the proper momentum about an offset pivot

With the information we have, it is not possible to know what constitutes 'balance to the force'
 

Eddie the head

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Joos said:
Well, as far as I'm concerned, Anakin did bring balance to the force.

As we can see in at the beginning of episode 1, there are a handful of Sith Lords and hundeds of Jedi. At the start of episode 4, there are a handful of both Sith and Jedi. Balance achieved.
In the same way the news media portrays balance sure.
 

Lono Shrugged

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All these wildly different points of view gleaned from taking one flimsy and contridicting source and applying your own experiences and prejudices to it reminds me why I hate religion. So many leaps of logic and struggles to find patterns that resonate with you.Setting up rules and conventions and assuming that this must conform to them. All because of one incredibly vague line. It's crazy how history repeats itself in different scales.

It's like poetry...
 

daibakuha

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BunnyKillBot said:
To all the people quoting 'balance to the force' as the culling of the Jedi,

Sorry, but that is an overly simplistic and quantitatively specific view of 'balance' to the 'force' as an unknown and unknowable quotient.

If the force is a plank about some pivot, your analogy assumes the pivot is central and the quantities of jedi/sith are the weights on either end. None of this is known or stated anywhere.

Five thousand feathers weigh the same as one brick
One feather can balance a brick with the proper momentum about an offset pivot

With the information we have, it is not possible to know what constitutes 'balance to the force'
Actually we can, "Bring balance to The Force" has a canon explanation that makes perfect sense within the narrative of Star Wars.

And in my analogy the Jedi weren't a force on the other end of the plank, they were the ones trying to maintain equilibrium while the Sith were the weights. It's a confusing metaphor I know, but it's the only one I could think of to actually get through to you people.
 

BunnyKillBot

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Oct 23, 2010
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daibakuha said:
BunnyKillBot said:
To all the people quoting 'balance to the force' as the culling of the Jedi,

Sorry, but that is an overly simplistic and quantitatively specific view of 'balance' to the 'force' as an unknown and unknowable quotient.

If the force is a plank about some pivot, your analogy assumes the pivot is central and the quantities of jedi/sith are the weights on either end. None of this is known or stated anywhere.

Five thousand feathers weigh the same as one brick
One feather can balance a brick with the proper momentum about an offset pivot

With the information we have, it is not possible to know what constitutes 'balance to the force'
Actually we can, "Bring balance to The Force" has a canon explanation that makes perfect sense within the narrative of Star Wars.

And in my analogy the Jedi weren't a force on the other end of the plank, they were the ones trying to maintain equilibrium while the Sith were the weights. It's a confusing metaphor I know, but it's the only one I could think of to actually get through to you people.
Please do enlighten an ignorant fellow and quoth me this perfect sense canon explanation. Please quote actual source text and not your own inferences.
 

daibakuha

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BunnyKillBot said:
Please do enlighten an ignorant fellow and quoth me this perfect sense canon explanation. Please quote actual source text and not your own inferences.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Chosen_One

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/The_Force#The_Jedi_Order

Canon explanation. That's actually what it means.
 

BunnyKillBot

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Oct 23, 2010
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daibakuha said:
BunnyKillBot said:
Please do enlighten an ignorant fellow and quoth me this perfect sense canon explanation. Please quote actual source text and not your own inferences.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Chosen_One

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/The_Force#The_Jedi_Order

Canon explanation. That's actually what it means.
Grand Master Fae Coven cautioned those who studied the prophecy into interpreting the idea of balance correctly; describing it as a fulcrum, Coven insists that good will not accept evil. Instead, the dark side has nothing to do with and is not present in the balance. The balance is in fact the Living Force, the circle of life and the symbiosis that exists within the natural order of the universe. The dark side, through agents such as the Sith, acts as a cancer on the Living Force that must be excised by the Jedi.
Referencing a book released in 2010, while maybe canon, is a rather hacky way of posthumously justifying a flaw.

and

Although the book has 160 pages, at Celebration V it was revealed that pages 13-16 discuss the prophecy of the Chosen One, and are missing, with the in-universe reason being that Darth Sidious tore them out.
Is just laughable

We don't know so errrrrr, we will chuck some **** and hope that it sticks
However, the article also states:

George Lucas himself has stated that Anakin is the Chosen One and that the prophecy is true, although it had been misinterpreted by the entire Jedi Order.[9][10]
Which, quoting the man himself, means Grand Master Fae Coven is wrong, her teaching of the 'correct interpretation of the idea of balance' is wrong, if not downright harmful to the order, and you are wrong also. :p
 

daibakuha

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BunnyKillBot said:
Which, quoting the man himself, means Grand Master Fae Coven is wrong, her teaching of the 'correct interpretation of the idea of balance' is wrong, if not downright harmful to the order, and you are wrong also. :p
I fail to see how that idea of the "Bringing Balance to the Force" is wrong by that quote. It's correct, Anakin does bring balance to the force by killing the Emperor and then subsequently dying. The sith are gone and the force is in balance.

EDIT: Lucas actually backs up the claims made in that book:

In an interview, Lucas compared the difference between the light and dark sides as being a symbiotic relationship and a cancer. A symbiotic relationship is one which benefits both parties and in which neither is harmed, whereas a cancer takes without giving back, eventually causing the death of both parties.
 

Seracen

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Sep 20, 2009
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INeedAName said:
To be honest, Bob, I'm wondering if you're not giving Lucas too much credit. I mean, I think George came out and said that Anakin actually /was/ the Chosen One all along (since he did kill the Emperor in the end and brought "balance to the Force"). Granted, they--Vader in the narrative and George when writing the films--did the whole destiny thing in a very round-about way that no one anticipated, but they did it.
Agreed. Although, I might also add that, "bringing balance to the force" would be a terrible idea in the prequel trilogies. Consider how the Sith were reduced to 2-3 people, yet the Jedi were legion. "Balance" would entail pretty much what happened, with the Jedi getting annihilated.

It would be interesting to have seen a "destiny" story where the prophecy caused the great cataclysm, but any uniqueness in the writing here was likely done by accident. After all, the original trilogy had enough decent content that Lucas' editors were able to filter a great story from the schlock he presented them with. It wasn't all bad, but poorly presented in either event.

If you see certain fan edits, the same thing happened here (indeed, Episode 1 became imminently watchable after the edit, which included redubbing all the alien dialogue). Unfortunately for the prequels, there was nobody around to reign in Lucas from ruining his own work.
 

gargantual

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This'll get lost in the fray but actually, I think one of the better users of the "Destiny" concept is Brandon Sanderson author of(Mistborn/Elantris/the final "Wheel of Time" books/Stormlight Archive)

usually in his thick tri or quad-character arc novels. There are main characters with power they don't understand, yet you get the sense they are going to fulfill it before the book is over. Sometimes they don't or their destiny isn't exactly a 'power fantasy' and he'll pull a fast one on you.


Still these same fated characters like (Raoden from Elantris/ Kaladin & Dalinar from The Way of Kings) don't really have any (Mr. Miyagi, or Gandalf, Obi-Wan, Yoda, or Jor-El, or any cipher character to make things easier for them. They may have support systems in other characters, but others are more confused than they are. Part of their ascension is more of a mystery than an explicit 'hero's journey'

Their power is never completely defined from the beginning. Any prophecies in the novels are too jumbled or broken in early chapters to make complete sense of before the main characters do. In the tradition of good suspense, you don't know whats going to happen unless it's just before its about to happen.

These people are drowned into situations of grim necessity and severe physical or social handicap, slavery, hellish disease and quarantine, seemingly schizophrenic episodes. So their 'destiny' becomes a psychological buoy to hang onto.

They get clues from different people and sources and really have to struggle by themselves to come into such power. They can even struggle with the possibility they're going crazy, believing in something others don't, and make risky decisions.

I noticed characters like that are still largely making their own choice, dealing with consequences and uncertainty, despite destiny. Their occupation, their future and being isn't completely written in stone, just a particular facet of them is.


This is what hollywood's missing. They use destiny like a tax exempt card before the cashier starts ringing, a pre set convenience, to put in a two dimensional hero, or fit in that deus-ex machina solution to all ils.

Hollywood's problem is when they choose not to 'simulate' the idea that 'all victories are earned, not bought'.

And in our jaded age where people draw unto lecherous villains or anti-heroes because they are "self-made" convincing, and they embody 'The American Dream' better, it seems there is a need for popular fiction to better explain why certain warriors would chose the role of the hero, and what they stand for instead of being ham-fisted into one.
 

Shjade

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Feb 2, 2010
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daibakuha said:
Again, like I said in the previous video thread, you two are both working from a fundamental misunderstanding of what "bring balance to The Force" actually means.

It doesn't mean balance between light and dark. It means that dark no longer exists. Dark Side practitioners naturally imbalance the force by twisting it to their own selfish and nefarious purposes. The main purpose and goal of the Jedi order is to bring The Force back it it's natural state, balanced.
To quote a fictional wise man: "Yeah, well, y'know, that's just, like, your opinion, man."

You can make up new definitions for "balance" if you want, but that one doesn't sound convincing. If there are people manipulating the Force in the service of order, but there's no one using it for chaos, that's not balanced. Or good vs evil, whatever you want to call it. The Jedi certainly aren't "neutral," so having them around without a counterpoint isn't balance.

The other guy's response about Luke being a "gray hat" I'm more inclined to get behind, though it would still mean wiping out the Jedi order was indeed contributing to balancing the Force.
 

daibakuha

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Shjade said:
To quote a fictional wise man: "Yeah, well, y'know, that's just, like, your opinion, man."

You can make up new definitions for "balance" if you want, but that one doesn't sound convincing. If there are people manipulating the Force in the service of order, but there's no one using it for chaos, that's not balanced. Or good vs evil, whatever you want to call it. The Jedi certainly aren't "neutral," so having them around without a counterpoint isn't balance.

The other guy's response about Luke being a "gray hat" I'm more inclined to get behind, though it would still mean wiping out the Jedi order was indeed contributing to balancing the Force.
Like I said earlier. This is not really a debate. That's what it actually means. It's official canon.
 

ProjectXa3

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Nov 6, 2012
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A theory: Anakin actually *was* the chosen one after all. Think about it- Luke might be the one who goes to fight the Emperor, but who's the one who actually goes and chucks ol' Palps down the shaft?
 

Thespian

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Bob, the prequels are there to turn Star Wars into one big destiny story. The Jedi misinterpreted the prophecy - however, Return of the Jedi ends with Anakin fulfilling the prophecy.

So! Luke did not forge his own path. He HAD to be there in order to convince Vader to turn back to the good side because Vader had to do that to kill himself and the Emperor, thus purifying the force or whatever and bringing balance. Luke wasn't forging his own path, he was a pawn in the prophecy and the stodgy old jerks were right all along.

This smells a bit to me of "Bob talks about something controversial but inconsequential" which I don't really appreciate, but hey he took a good stab at it.

I do however, really appreciate the discussion of how Luke forged his own path. Assuming the prequels never happened and prophecies don't exist in SW, we have a young headstrong protagonist who ignores the traditional teachings of his elders and goes with the compassionate route - and he is rewarded, he saves his friends and wins the day and doesn't have to kill his father. The old men in robes were wrong. Beautiful.
 

Shjade

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Feb 2, 2010
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daibakuha said:
Like I said earlier. This is not really a debate. That's what it actually means. It's official canon.
So is a Gungan being put in a position to legitimately initiate Senate rulings because someone said, "Sure, he can have my seat for a few days."

Frankly, "it's canon" doesn't mean much to me when it comes to Star Wars.
 

daibakuha

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Shjade said:
So is a Gungan being put in a position to legitimately initiate Senate rulings because someone said, "Sure, he can have my seat for a few days."

Frankly, "it's canon" doesn't mean much to me when it comes to Star Wars.
"I mean who cares what things actually mean when I can just make shit up on the spot?"
 

Aitamen

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Dec 6, 2011
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Alternatively, to me, this is a great reason to have shopkeepers still charge "The Chosen One" for potions...
 

Shjade

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Feb 2, 2010
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daibakuha said:
Shjade said:
So is a Gungan being put in a position to legitimately initiate Senate rulings because someone said, "Sure, he can have my seat for a few days."

Frankly, "it's canon" doesn't mean much to me when it comes to Star Wars.
"I mean who cares what things actually mean when I can just make shit up on the spot?"
"Balance" has a meaning. What you're calling "canon" is what was made up on the spot, so you're not really helping yourself there.
 

daibakuha

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Shjade said:
"Balance" has a meaning. What you're calling "canon" is what was made up on the spot, so you're not really helping yourself there.
You mean like this one?

"A condition in which different elements are equal or in the correct proportions."

I'm still trying to figure out why you even bother commenting. This isn't a debate, these aren't opinions. You are 100% incorrect. Apparently that's not good enough for you, having the creator of the work itself tell you exactly what it means.