The Big Picture: Done With Dark

[NinjaDeathSlap]

I wasn't remotely worried about Thor going down the Transformers route. Surely after Spiderman, Spiderman 2 (not so much Spiderman 3 though), Iron man, Iron man 2, (haven't seen The Incredible Hulk so I can't comment) we know by now that Marvel know how to make good movies. (Let's just pretend the X-Men trilogy never happened, it was their first try)

One thing I do want to know as I'm not a comic buff myself even though I like superhero movies...

Is Spiderman going to be in The Averngers movie? I don't think I've ever seen him on any of the original comic book images of them that Bob has shown but seriously, what is Marvel without Spiderman?

 

[Jennacide]

Oh c'mon Bob, we all know McFarland isn't the one to blame for comics going to shit in the 90's. That is entirely on the shoulders of Liefeld and his offensive level of influence somehow.

 

[mcnally86]

I really like your episodes about comics. This one was very well done.

That said I think the "gritty reboot" has to do with aging audience. If, say, you had 10 million fans 12-16 for your franchise you might be pretty set. Then oh no puberty hits and they don't care. Now that your bread and butter consumers are 18-25 you company may try a gritty reboot. Rugrats grew up and transformers stars real dolls. This seems sound you loose and gain viewers each year will this be a good decision? Usually not but the industry keeps making it. Hell we know that the next generation population it always, ALWAYS, bigger than the last. People forget nostalgia but there is a new group of 7 year old each day. Pokemon will always sell more and more because they refuse to grow up, nabbing every child, and encourage their aging "watched it as a kid" group to look back.

 

[Rivers Wells]

Good video, Bob, with once concern as a viewer.

This video calls out the desperate need of movies to 'grit' up their franchises to appeal to older audiences instead of the original market for which they're more naturally inclined. In other words, making the goofy space people go through depression and a couple of other psychoses is shoe-horning in concepts that don't need to be there to grab an older market since it was originally made for a younger group. Ok, I get that and I see the logic in it.

But, pretty much any good movie does that. Iron Man is a movie about obsessing over legacy mixed with a need to mature and take responsibility. At the same time: robots fighting robots with impossible laser light shows. Everyone's happy. Not to compare the movies directly, but it is a lot like the challenging concepts in Star Wars mixed with a lot of great action, a movie you held up as an example of things done "the right way" in the video. The Dark Knight? Yes, there were heavy political over tones (and some parts might be a bit too much for the kiddies) but the movie also just told a great "Holmes/Moriarty" style meeting of the characters thats a ton of fun to watch. Beyond the presented examples, doesn't The Incredibles touch on Ayn Rand's beliefs? Doesn't Up have kiddie humor while offering a deep study of coping with loss?

This more than any video from Bob so far left me with an unclear idea of his stance. All the older movies that did exactly what he said he was concerned about (larger morals in what 'should' be a simpler story) are fine because... well, its okay for them to be. Any newer movie with more traditional concepts that still keep in mind the larger issues are "making him sick."

I think the point of this video was that "remakes" or "reimaginings" were making him sick with their need to appeal to a wider audience through toning up the material artificially. Not making things grittier for narratives sake, just for the hell of sexing things up a bit. I see the point, but then again if the characters are more appealing to the older kids, aren't they more appealing to the younger kids who just want to be cool? Maybe thats why when we get older, they become "Ok" and make us a little less "sick". Just thinking out loud.

 

[NinjaDeathSlap]

Im sorry but Im in full support of all this "comics for adults" business- I dont want childish stupidity in my movies.

If Thor is overly childish Im gonna be incredibly dissappointed.

(Oh and doesnt this run contrary to that whole "stuffs better when it means something" spiel Bob gave awhile back?).

Kids aren't stupid you know. You can make a kids film that both entertains and educates. Just look at anything Pixar has ever made, ever.

The problem comes when you get movies that ARE just stupid masquerading as dark and gritty. Key difference: The Dark Knight = good dark movie, Transformers = shitty movie period.

 

[brazuca]

I should stay shut about this topic, because I was not an avid reader of comic books. My kid years were too much troubled and out of ordinary. Imagine being tought to talk in two different languages. Now for gritty reboots. They are the own notion of an coutry getting older. See the numbers of kids in the US now. Statistically it's smaller than 30 years before. Face it America will sooner, rather than latter, be like Europe. You can not market Batman, Super, Iron Man (well he is also a cold war american hero, no cold war...), The Punisher or any other to an small audience fewer and fewer every year.
This topic should also bring you Bob to Marvel Knights, Max and the other one I forgot the name. Also to DC ramifications as well. You see I was not a very avid reader of comic books.

 

[Axolotl]

After surveying the mess he have wrought with Watchmen in the 90's, Alan Moore decides he had enough of the GrimDark in comics, and answers back with the more positive Tom Strong, an old-school throwback to the HappyFun superhero stories of yore, only this time with modern twists on that.

Then he made a comic reinterpreting childldren's fairytales as peadophilia, so it's not like he totally rid himself of making grimdark stuff.

But the 90's trends weren't that bad, sure most of it sucked alot but we got Sandman so it wasn't all bad.

 

[luvd1]

Huh. Thor is out here in the uk as well.... That's odd it's out here and auss before the USA. Saw it yesterday. Nice film. Kenneth B did very well all in all. Reminded me of he-man the movie but not so rubbish. Kiddy fantasy but with a little nod for adults as in a pixel style if you know what I mean.

 

[Togs]

Kids aren't stupid you know. You can make a kids film that both entertains and educates. Just look at anything Pixar has ever made, ever.

The problem comes when you get movies that ARE just stupid masquerading as dark and gritty. Key difference: The Dark Knight = good dark movie, Transformers = shitty movie period.

Agreed on almost every point, a kids film can still be good for adults but when it comes to action films (much like Thor is purported to be) the kiddified versions always stink really badly.

 

[themilo504]

I complete agree but I have to say that unlike transformer movie iron man and batman really work as adult movies. but they also work as kids movies take batman yes he is a guy with a lot of issues but he is also a guy who wears a bat costume and fights a evil clone.
I hope that the atmosphere of thor is like that of the dc animated universe not too dark not too kiddy
There is a unintended side effect that keeps kids away from comics. That is that once you star embracing the grim and gritty style of comics it while be harder and harder to make your comic kid friendly again and still use continuity and like you said comic fans love continuity.

 

[lord.jeff]

I've made this same rant many a times myself. Although my rants revolve around more how to mature something properly because you can make mature superhero stories and have it be good, here are some guidelines to start out with:
Rule one- Don't throw in drugs, prostitution, or rape just because it controversial.
Rule two- Adding more shadows and making everything black does not make it a mature story.
Rule three- Characters need more then two emotions, just using anger and regret isn't enough.
Rule four- Happiness is allowed and encouraged, I may be an adult but I still read/watch to be entertained, and whiny assholes aren't very entertaining.

 

[Altercator]

After surveying the mess he have wrought with Watchmen in the 90's, Alan Moore decides he had enough of the GrimDark in comics, and answers back with the more positive Tom Strong, an old-school throwback to the HappyFun superhero stories of yore, only this time with modern twists on that.

Then he made a comic reinterpreting childldren's fairytales as peadophilia, so it's not like he totally rid himself of making grimdark stuff.

But the 90's trends weren't that bad, sure most of it sucked alot but we got Sandman so it wasn't all bad.

Yeah, I was supposed to bring that up, alongside League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, but at least with Tom Strong, Alan Moore showed us that it's possible to make a post-modern take on old-school superheroics without going down the GrimDark route.

 

[MB202]

I agree with Bob, but not really for his reasons. I don't like grim and gritty settings because... Well, they just don't appeal to me. Never have. I don't like excessive violence and I almost loathe anything sexually-related, mostly because it makes me feel like a pervert or sicko whenever I watch something like that.

Also, WALL-E FTW! My favorite movie of all time, by the way.

 

[JUMBO PALACE]

One thing I do want to know as I'm not a comic buff myself even though I like superhero movies...

Is Spiderman going to be in The Averngers movie? I don't think I've ever seen him on any of the original comic book images of them that Bob has shown but seriously, what is Marvel without Spiderman?

No, spiderman will not be in The Avengers. Spiderman is getting a reboot of his own. Everyone has been recast and it's now going to be more of a teen/highschool driven story. Think Twilight with Spiderman.

 

[Blindswordmaster]

I'm going to say this right now: I don't give two shits about the political subtext of the Dark Knight, I just want to see fucking Batman. Did I like The Incredible Hulk and both Iron Men? Of course I did, but I really don't care about the subtext or underlying message, or even the extremely obvious message, I just want to see my fucking superheroes! Since when does an absence of subtext make something juvenile? Like Freud said:"Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar."And sometimes a space viking with a magic hammer, is just a space viking with a magic hammer.
-Also, I love Batman. I love Adam West Batman, Michael Keaton Batman, Kevin Conroy Batman, Diedrich Bader Batman, and Christian Bale Batman. I think the world is big enough for The Brave and the Bold and The Dark Knight. But not George Cloony Batman, no world needs that.

 

[TheEnglishman]

Yeah, watching Thor tommorow (Britain got it early too!) and looking forward to it.

I'm totally for this message, I love Batman The Animated Series and Batman The Brave and the Bold equally. Though I am coldly indifferent to The Batman.

 

[Killing_Time]

I totally agree that comic movies are getting way too gritty and dark. I thought the seriousness of the Spider-Man movies pretty much ruined them in comparison to the original comics. I hope the reboot will be more faithful to the original source material. It would be a dream come true to see a goofy teenage Spider-Man spouting out funny one-liners as he beats up super villains. I love the humor and lightheartedness in the series, and it's something that got COMPLETELY lost in translation from comic to film.

 

[LordLundar]

I've made this same rant many a times myself. Although my rants revolve around more how to mature something properly because you can make mature superhero stories and have it be good, here are some guidelines to start out with:
Rule one- Don't throw in drugs, prostitution, or rape just because it controversial.
Rule two- Adding more shadows and making everything black does not make it a mature story.
Rule three- Characters need more then two emotions, just using anger and regret isn't enough.
Rule four- Happiness is allowed and encouraged, I may be an adult but I still read/watch to be entertained, and whiny assholes aren't very entertaining.

HELL YEAH! I'd like to add something though:

Rule five- Sex and violence is not automatically mature, it just increases the minimum age limit to watch/play said entertainment. Stop throwing it around saying you're catering to a mature audience, because you're not.

I totally agree that comic movies are getting way too gritty and dark. I thought the seriousness of the Spider-Man movies pretty much ruined them in comparison to the original comics. I hope the reboot will be more faithful to the original source material. It would be a dream come true to see a goofy teenage Spider-Man spouting out funny one-liners as he beats up super villains. I love the humor and lightheartedness in the series, and it's something that got COMPLETELY lost in translation from comic to film.

I wouldn't say completely lost, as he had a couple of good shots against Jameson in the movies. Apart from that, you're right. One of spidey's main traits is that he can crack a joke or pun in almost any situation, but in the movies there's almost nothing there. Those shots on Jameson were the only time I actually felt I was watching spiderman, and not "whiny kid with spider powers."