The Big Picture: Done With Dark
- Thread starter MovieBob
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Although i do agree that sometimes grim'n'gritty goes too far I don't really have problems with movies like Hulk (the 2003 one) and Iron man, as I really like to see movies bring depth to the characters and iron man manages to balance its themes with a crapload of humor, so i think it can really play well to all ages. The fact is it has to be done WELL, and if it's not, it sucks.
They were pretty well done, I just hated them. I wasn't looking for deep psycho darkness from my "blowing up cars with wacky weapons" game. A lot of what TM was always skirted bad taste, but in a light-hearted way. The suicide-bomber religious nut was just another manifestation of that.Father Time said:Twisted Metal was always kind of dark (or at least the stories were), this game just ran with it.walsfeo said:Loved that game, even though I pretty much hated the back story. A perfect example of where darkly comic should be used instead of darkly gritty. The game concept was designed to appeal to kids - shape shifting icecream truck mechs and a guy welded into giant wheels do combat? Heck yeah! But I couldn't let my son play the campaign 'cause the cut scenes would have given him nightmares.Father Time said:I don't know I kinda like my dark stories, although I don't think I've had to experience something light from my childhood all of a sudden becoming gritty (most of my childhood entertainment consisted of game boy games, crash bandicoot, spyro and nickelodeon shows though).
Also because I think it's relevant besides Batman I can think of exactly one dark reboot that worked (and oh man did it work).
Also in this game you have a car (Brimsotne) whose special weapon is suicide bombers (this came out before 9/11 so it wasn't meant to be bad taste).
Oh and I thought the back stories were really well done, but yeah definitely not for kids.
However game play and sound track rocked mightily, and for all of that I love the game.
Michael Bay's 'Transformers' is a darker and edgier [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DarkerAndEdgier] remake of the original series?
I remember the trailers did foreshadow a mature portrayal of an apocalyptic tale of extraterrestrial sentient machines bringing a millennia old civil war to Earth.
The movies themselves however, seemed more like comedy films with a little action thrown in here and there. I have no problem with that - if that's you're thing then go for it. I'd wish the marketing campaigns had been honest about it though.
The films certainly do contain a lot of sex jokes as you point out Bob, but I'm not sure that sex jokes qualify as a gritty remake.
I remember the trailers did foreshadow a mature portrayal of an apocalyptic tale of extraterrestrial sentient machines bringing a millennia old civil war to Earth.
The movies themselves however, seemed more like comedy films with a little action thrown in here and there. I have no problem with that - if that's you're thing then go for it. I'd wish the marketing campaigns had been honest about it though.
The films certainly do contain a lot of sex jokes as you point out Bob, but I'm not sure that sex jokes qualify as a gritty remake.
I just find it ridiculous that superhero comics are still basically dictated by the direct market, and all but ignoring all the potential preteen readers who are potential future customers. I actually think the Disney/Marvel merger is a good thing, since Disney clearly purchased the latter with the intention of marketing to young boys.
Can you still have superhero books for 25+ year old males? Sure. But why can't you also publish books for the 6-18 year old market, boys and girls?
Can you still have superhero books for 25+ year old males? Sure. But why can't you also publish books for the 6-18 year old market, boys and girls?
Nolan's Batman might be gritty compared to previous film and television versions of Batman. He's not particularly gritty compared to Batman comics of the last 20-30 years.Frozen Donkey Wheel2 said:
now to just get the message out that dark is not the best thing since sliced bread.
a lot of things from card games to video games to movies seem to think that there is a morality system needed here, and that the bad guys need to be cooler than the good guys... why exactly?
a lot of things from card games to video games to movies seem to think that there is a morality system needed here, and that the bad guys need to be cooler than the good guys... why exactly?
Because they sell like shit. Although I imagine trying to get comics sold outside of comic stores would help towards that a little (that's easier said than done though really).Falseprophet said:
Nah, the best age of comics is right fuckin' now.Abandon4093 said:
Well it was mature in the sense that it wouldn't be appropriate for children. If it weren't made inappropriate for children it wouldn't have been remarkable. It was awesome because it was violent, over the top, and "mature" camp, yet still in the kids movie trappings. It was that take on cliche that made it the awesome movie that it was.Spangles said:
Firstly i'd just like to say i'm a 20 year old man, so i grew up in the 90s, and i never read a comic in my life. Might have something to do with not living in the US.
Because of that i can't really voice an opinion on "cartoony cheese" over "darkly edgy" aside from taking it all at face value. Personally, i always found the notion of men in spandex beating up bad guys to be really... odd. (COMICS ARE WEEEEEIRD) I never understood the appeal of it. Nor did i get why comic book heroes were so popular when each one only had one or two powers and that's it. Look at the X-Men. Cyclops has his laser thing. Wolverine has his claws and regeneration. That blue chick can change shape. The point is i always saw comic book heroes as nothing more than pokemon for western man-children. Disclaimer: I actually grew up playing pokemon on the Game Boy, so i'm not really one to talk down to man-children. But the point still stands that to an outsider looking externally toward a culture predominated by man-children they're going to think it's weird, stupid and pointless - the one thing my mother always went on about when i was a young kid was how spastic pokemon was / is, for example, and no amount of trying to explain it could change her mind on that, and that's exactly how i feel when it comes to comic books and comic book heroes.
As i'm now a "mature adult" (or so i like to think) i tend to look at things like films for something that will appeal to that more eclectic taste of the gritty and mature themes that we as adults deal with and can now appreciate after having gotten out of childhood and puberty. Political, sexual and sociological themes are suddenly much more relevant to us, so we respond greater to them when it's presented to us in a film and why we identify so strongly with characters we recognise who go through those same struggles.
I've not seen the transformers films or even the X-Men films so i don't know how this merging of the cartoon comic and the gritty serious real world really works, though i have seen Sin City and Watchmen and loved them both. Aren't they examples of the above, of "comics not for kids"? That said, i and most everyone i know loved the Spiderman films, and they definitely had that pre-90's cartoon comic book vibe of a wacky city with a wacky hero and wacky (if emotionally and mentally unstable) villains, though that feeling did ebb away after the first film. Once Spidey has his powers, the tone darkens significantly as we no longer have the whole introduction-of-fantasy element in the way.
Because of that i can't really voice an opinion on "cartoony cheese" over "darkly edgy" aside from taking it all at face value. Personally, i always found the notion of men in spandex beating up bad guys to be really... odd. (COMICS ARE WEEEEEIRD) I never understood the appeal of it. Nor did i get why comic book heroes were so popular when each one only had one or two powers and that's it. Look at the X-Men. Cyclops has his laser thing. Wolverine has his claws and regeneration. That blue chick can change shape. The point is i always saw comic book heroes as nothing more than pokemon for western man-children. Disclaimer: I actually grew up playing pokemon on the Game Boy, so i'm not really one to talk down to man-children. But the point still stands that to an outsider looking externally toward a culture predominated by man-children they're going to think it's weird, stupid and pointless - the one thing my mother always went on about when i was a young kid was how spastic pokemon was / is, for example, and no amount of trying to explain it could change her mind on that, and that's exactly how i feel when it comes to comic books and comic book heroes.
As i'm now a "mature adult" (or so i like to think) i tend to look at things like films for something that will appeal to that more eclectic taste of the gritty and mature themes that we as adults deal with and can now appreciate after having gotten out of childhood and puberty. Political, sexual and sociological themes are suddenly much more relevant to us, so we respond greater to them when it's presented to us in a film and why we identify so strongly with characters we recognise who go through those same struggles.
I've not seen the transformers films or even the X-Men films so i don't know how this merging of the cartoon comic and the gritty serious real world really works, though i have seen Sin City and Watchmen and loved them both. Aren't they examples of the above, of "comics not for kids"? That said, i and most everyone i know loved the Spiderman films, and they definitely had that pre-90's cartoon comic book vibe of a wacky city with a wacky hero and wacky (if emotionally and mentally unstable) villains, though that feeling did ebb away after the first film. Once Spidey has his powers, the tone darkens significantly as we no longer have the whole introduction-of-fantasy element in the way.
I think Bob is pointing fingers at McFarlane because his role in defining role in 90s comics. Liefeld is more of a destructive force of pure terrible whose role was to show no class.Arqus_Zed said:
Also, yes Linkara did this. And has mentioned it again and again.
Aw crap, seriously? What did they look at the previous movies and say "Wow these were really good, but I think what would be even better is if audiences spent the entire thing watching pre-spidey Pete get the shit kicked out of him while making goo-goo eyes at MJ"?JUMBO PALACE said:
To me, the very worst part of this whole "dark and gritty" trend is the insultingly imbecilic things the writers consider "grown up". Drugs, sex, and bloody death. Yeah, I TOTALLY identify with this crap. (sarcasm)
I've reached the point where I actually prefer the "family oriented" stuff because it is usually MORE MATURE.
I've reached the point where I actually prefer the "family oriented" stuff because it is usually MORE MATURE.
I couldn't really think of any other way to put it. If i'm owning up to having done something that is also something man-children do, i'd have thought i'd be ripping on myself just as much or at least creating a level ground with everyone else - clearly not. I wasn't intending to make a derogatory statement, or rather, it wasn't the point of using that phrase. I'm afraid i just can't think of a nicer term for it. But if you can, feel free to suggest one. I just feel the comparison between pokemon and comic book heroes is there, and we all know pokemon are pretty much for man-children (for those who aren't of the younger demographic), and so comic book heroes carry over that same aspect of the comparison in my head, especially when you consider comic book heroes really played on both the imagination of younger audiences, the escapism from mundane school life, and the fact nothing really bad happened to them. There might be a few "ooh, aaah" moments, but at the end of the day you always knew the hero was going to beat the baddies and save the day. Otherwise there'd be no hero and no comic. To me, adults who identify with these comic book heroes are clinging on to old childhood fantasies - hence man-children. But that does not have to be a negative connotation. It's negative because you believe it to be. I know people who are self-proclaimed proud man-children, just like you have those who are proud to be geeks, and dare i say, proud to be gamers. Grown men who play pokemon into their 30s will look you in the eye like a boss while they finish catching a pokemon and say with all seriousness that yes, they do want to catch 'em all and couldn't give a toss what others think about their hobbies or labelling them as man-children.GiantRaven said:
Well...Audiences get the movies they deserve, sadly. Hollywood is smart enough to realize that the viewers are dumb enough to pay for shallow sex and violence masquerading as "mature themes". Hollywood's also smart enough to capitalize on the conflict between their audiences' fetishizing of their childhood nostalgia and their desire to pretend to be adults that are interested in adult things.Dom Kebbell said: