The Big Picture: Going Green: Part I
- Thread starter MovieBob
- Start date
The problem was that KNOWLEDGEABLE fans could point the numerous logical and continuity hole in Emerald Twilight (Emerald Toilet by Hal fans) had:LaughingAtlas said:
1) The Yalan Gur story (post-Crisis explanation for Earth-2 GL) showed that the Guardians could change the weakness of on GL's ring. But the Guardians don't do the obvious and make Hal's ring weakness green.
2) Post-Crisis it was revealed that Hal was NOT fearless enough for the ring and so got an emotional lombotomy which he had the ring remove and spent the rest of the issue terrorified of his own shadow before finally getting his act together.
3) In the 1993 Trinity two issue crossover the Guardians who live in a Universe filled with shapeshifters and Superscience just roll over and cringe when Hal shows them an image of something claiming to be Quarra the Creator one of their old Gods never thinking for a moment that perhaps she was a fake. No wonder these same Guardians don't bat an eye at Hal acting out of character.
4) The Guardians never consider the possibility of other peoples duplicating their GL energy. But it happened twice - the Poglachi (1990) and Lord Malvolio of the Green Flame's ring (Action #632-#635). In fact Lord Malvolio's ring was the ring Hal was wearing when he went nuts and is the ring Kyle now wears.
5) The Guardians not knowing Sinestro was playing dictator of a whole sector, or that there were false Guadians giving out GL ring like Cracker Jack prizes (with one making a whole *planet*- for his personal amusement), that Lord Malvolio had made his own GL ring, or dozens of things that make Hal recreating a city look like small potatoes.
6) The Fist of the Guardians (Emerald Dawn II) were created as a more flexible manner to deal with a GL who was out of control. But for some strange reason the Guardians never use them to stop Hal.
7) Hal KNEW that GL ring power is NOT cumulative but he still goes and collects GL rings to get more power.
8) The Guardian's brilliant last ditch idea for stopping Happy Hal was to bring Sinestro back from the dead. They seem to have forgotten that Sinestro wanted to destroy to Corp and once he was done with Hal they would have been next.
9) Seems that Gathnet forgot to put safeguards in the ring he made for Kyle (or Lord Malvolio set it up so such safeguards would fail). As a result Kyle creates what appears to be a 'I want to destroy the universe' nut case called Oblivion. Turns out as Hal's ring post-Crisis removed his fear while Kyle's removed his bad feelings; guess what Oblivion really was?
But it was NOT all this that pissed of Hal fans but rather the fact that story we got was NOT the one originally planned (Gerard Jones' original plot is out there). In THAT story Hal would have been in a Catch-22 situation of deciding which of two sets of Guardians are the real deal with the fate of the universe in the balance. The way THAT story ended Hal could have have started his own corp with Kyle as his first recruit and so you didn't need to destroy Hal to create Kyle.
The possession angle had been suggested by Hal fans nearly from the beginning but it did NOT involve s fear eating space bug but a villain called Lord Malvolio (Action #632-#635; 1988-1989) who destroyed Hal's ring forcing Hal to take Malvolio's ring which curiously DID effect yellow.Abandon4093 said:
It should be mentioned the Lord Malvolio story NEGATES the explanation of Parallax possessing Hal through his GL ring as Hal WASN"T WEARING A GL RING AT THE TIME.
Loved it!
Yep, always thought that weakness to yellow to be ridiculous, but I really like the idea of a super hero turning evil, what was the big deal? I get the political complaint and they shouldn't have forced a new hero to take his place, but still, sounds like an epic story, and would actually like to read that one and the one where he's the bad guy. I hope all the stuff that Bob talked about will be told in the new movie, cuz for once that stuff actually seems reasonable and interesting. The Superman dies stuff, not so much, but looking forward to that episode!
I don't know anything about the new movie, so don't spoil anything, but I think he should get all mad because of his GF turning evil, and then end the movie with the big cliffhanger of him becoming evil. I'd totally watch that.
Oh, and the green arrow/lantern crossover sounds epic, I wants it!
Yep, always thought that weakness to yellow to be ridiculous, but I really like the idea of a super hero turning evil, what was the big deal? I get the political complaint and they shouldn't have forced a new hero to take his place, but still, sounds like an epic story, and would actually like to read that one and the one where he's the bad guy. I hope all the stuff that Bob talked about will be told in the new movie, cuz for once that stuff actually seems reasonable and interesting. The Superman dies stuff, not so much, but looking forward to that episode!
I don't know anything about the new movie, so don't spoil anything, but I think he should get all mad because of his GF turning evil, and then end the movie with the big cliffhanger of him becoming evil. I'd totally watch that.
Oh, and the green arrow/lantern crossover sounds epic, I wants it!
Not to go under anyones skin, but H.E.A.T reminds me of the debates often seen between Atheists and Christians.
The lantern constructs cannot interact with or control things of a yellow color. So if you had a yellow ball, you can't use the ring to just scoop it up with a giant green hand.Exterminas said:
Hahaha you forgot to mention one thing.
KYLE RAYNER OUTSOLD SUPERMAN AND BATMAN! He outsold EVERYTHING that wasn't Grant Morrisons JLA series... and he was ON the JLA. When Ron Marz was writing the book we finally had a hero who wasn't boring as shit. Hal Jordan was as dull a you could make a superhero, the most basic interpretations of Superman were more intresting than Hal Jordan.
You wanna know why he sold? because it was GOOD, seriously go back and actually READ these storylines, don't just parrot wikipedia, the comics are awesome as hell. And here's the worst thing, Hal Jordan as a villain? he was MAGNETO.
He was not "Mwahahahaha I'm evil" he was "I want to make things right, I just want to be a hero and save lives" because this image people THIS is the image of a completely crazy evil man!
Yeah look at that insane evil villain and how he curls into the fetal position because he hates himself for failing all those people.
Hal Jordan was a COCK! He was an asshole through out the entire book, he utterly snapped at Guy Gardner calling him a brain damaged idiot, beating him up and taking his ring. Him snapping was the most humanizing thing that ever happened to him.
Any you want to talk Plot Derailment and Character Derailment? look no further than Green Lantern RIGHT FUCKING NOW! Not only does Geoff Johns play so fast and loose with the continuity that many GL storylines no longer make any sense, but he also had THE most bullshit excuse for Hal going crazy.
See it wasn't that Hal was human and knowing he failed 7 Million lives caused him to try his best to go back in time and save them, it was that a giant yellow space bug was possesing him. And not only that but EVERYTHING that happened that wasn't Hal being his bland boring self, ever doubting himself, going with Green Arrow on his trip around America? all that was the work of a Yellow Space Bug too.
Of course this makes no sense when Hal as Parallax did good things, like knowingly erasing his own memory so he could fail at resetting the universe. Or giving up his life in 'Final Night' to Reignite the Sun.
Conversly, THIS is Kyle Rayner
Faliable but with a heart of gold, he OVERCAME his fear, the price the ring had, the people he loved dying, he fought through it all and he was dedicatedly ANTI-DARK AGE. He didn't kill, he was a hero, a good hero.
HEAT never gave him a chance because Hal Jordan could eat shit each comic and they would be pleased. Hell it's the same for ALL the lanterns.
The Jerk with a heart of gold that most people think of Guy Gardner as was in Justice League International, Ron Marz's Green Lantern and Peter Tomasi's Green Lantern Corp. Otherwise he was a one dimensional jerk
John Stewert was only slightly less bland than Hal Jordan where his big characterization was "I'm black and I accidently blew up a planet" in Ron Marz's GL John actually got to be a fleshed out character, the fact he was an Architect was important.
KYLE RAYNER OUTSOLD SUPERMAN AND BATMAN! He outsold EVERYTHING that wasn't Grant Morrisons JLA series... and he was ON the JLA. When Ron Marz was writing the book we finally had a hero who wasn't boring as shit. Hal Jordan was as dull a you could make a superhero, the most basic interpretations of Superman were more intresting than Hal Jordan.
You wanna know why he sold? because it was GOOD, seriously go back and actually READ these storylines, don't just parrot wikipedia, the comics are awesome as hell. And here's the worst thing, Hal Jordan as a villain? he was MAGNETO.
He was not "Mwahahahaha I'm evil" he was "I want to make things right, I just want to be a hero and save lives" because this image people THIS is the image of a completely crazy evil man!
Yeah look at that insane evil villain and how he curls into the fetal position because he hates himself for failing all those people.
Hal Jordan was a COCK! He was an asshole through out the entire book, he utterly snapped at Guy Gardner calling him a brain damaged idiot, beating him up and taking his ring. Him snapping was the most humanizing thing that ever happened to him.
Any you want to talk Plot Derailment and Character Derailment? look no further than Green Lantern RIGHT FUCKING NOW! Not only does Geoff Johns play so fast and loose with the continuity that many GL storylines no longer make any sense, but he also had THE most bullshit excuse for Hal going crazy.
See it wasn't that Hal was human and knowing he failed 7 Million lives caused him to try his best to go back in time and save them, it was that a giant yellow space bug was possesing him. And not only that but EVERYTHING that happened that wasn't Hal being his bland boring self, ever doubting himself, going with Green Arrow on his trip around America? all that was the work of a Yellow Space Bug too.
Of course this makes no sense when Hal as Parallax did good things, like knowingly erasing his own memory so he could fail at resetting the universe. Or giving up his life in 'Final Night' to Reignite the Sun.
Conversly, THIS is Kyle Rayner
Faliable but with a heart of gold, he OVERCAME his fear, the price the ring had, the people he loved dying, he fought through it all and he was dedicatedly ANTI-DARK AGE. He didn't kill, he was a hero, a good hero.
HEAT never gave him a chance because Hal Jordan could eat shit each comic and they would be pleased. Hell it's the same for ALL the lanterns.
The Jerk with a heart of gold that most people think of Guy Gardner as was in Justice League International, Ron Marz's Green Lantern and Peter Tomasi's Green Lantern Corp. Otherwise he was a one dimensional jerk
John Stewert was only slightly less bland than Hal Jordan where his big characterization was "I'm black and I accidently blew up a planet" in Ron Marz's GL John actually got to be a fleshed out character, the fact he was an Architect was important.
They didn't cut Hal to make Kyle, they cut Hal because Green Lantern dropped below the threshold for cancellation, like it or not Green Lantern was changing, if Hal didn't die the book would simply have been cancelled. The new issues coming out weren't anything out of the normal, and it's not like they weren't betraying their own continuitymaximara said:
Well if I say it, it'll ruin part II so I'll put it in spoilers and keep in vague.Gindil said:
As you might be able to guess there is some serious retconning where they make Hal Jordon no longer evil. Basically he's all good again and the JLA all forgive him. Apart from Batman who feels he most atone for his crimes, he throws a Bat grapple around him and starts lecturing Jordon on being evil and Jordon evaporates the grapple and turns round and punches him. It be fair you can sort of see how Geoff Johns is a quite a big green lanter fan. Because I still think Batman could've/should've blocked it.
I never understand when this kind of thing happens (ie people bitching about replacing one character with another). No matter how much you like a character, theres a point where they need to be sent of into the night. These H.E.A.T. People seems to just want thing to stay exactly the same, which annoys me because I like to see a series develop, rather than stagnate.
Is it just me, or does that finale for the original green lantern actually sound pretty awesome? Insane after the events of crisis and becoming a mega-supervillain actually sounds pretty badass in my book.
Of course comic geeks will be comic geeks and essentially nothing should ever change, but I do see why people would be annoyed at the implications if not so much the actual events happening on-page.
Of course comic geeks will be comic geeks and essentially nothing should ever change, but I do see why people would be annoyed at the implications if not so much the actual events happening on-page.
Thanks for that, Mr. Movie Bob. I would never have even heard of this stuff unless you brought it up. Very interesting. Can't wait to see how it turns out. I'm not going to Google it or anything. I was 14 in 1994, so I remember the world pre-interwebs. I am curious to see how these H.E.A.T. guys won. Keep up the good work Bob! You're awesome!
This gets all confusing when DC introduced yet another Green Laturn in the Justice League cartoons...