The Big Picture: Leave Michael Bay Alone

PhantomEcho

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I think, rather than the public really being 'The Problem', the problem is that we seem to think there is actually a problem where there isn't. The only problem that exists is the same problem that has existed since money first began exchanging hands:

One person with creativity finds a way to make a shiny silver coin, and now eight billion slack-jawed idiots will try to repeat that same formula, ad nauseam, until the people paying for these things get bored and move on to another new and creative thing.

Movie-goers want things that will entertain and excite them, make them feel things, or just give them something to think about. Some directors focus on giving them satisfaction through great scenery and wonderful colors and shapes and sounds. Some directors focus on the chaos and the destruction, the excitement and explosiveness (often literally) of action. Others just try to tell an emotional story, using charm and humor and wit to entice the audience to feel.

But are these the -only- ways to make a movie? Of course not! These aren't even the ONLY motivations for people who go to the movies. These are just trends, thematic observances by myself and the movie critics and Hollywood/The Movie Industry... as to what brings in the money. And so the uncreative bankrollers of these films say "Here's five billion dollars. Make us an actiony-explode-'em-up that'll double our investments."

Why? Because it has the greatest probable chance of being successful ACCORDING TO THE TRENDS. When the trends change, so will the movies... but the problem will remain the same.

They'll want a billion copies of the same NEW idea.
 

SonOfVoorhees

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Sorry, i lost you when you compared Bays action to Woos action. Have you seen Red Cliff? An their is more style to the gunplay in one John Woo movie than in any Bay movie. Regardless of what people say, Bay makes dumb action movies, and he does that stuff extremely well. In alot of ways the gunplay in woo movies isnt so much the fight but whats behind it. (Also im a massive John Woo fan, so maybe a bit biased. ) But one thing i want is a Bad Boys 3.
 

Hutzpah Chicken

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canadamus_prime said:
The Transformers movies where way better than DragonBall: Evolution so he's alright by me.
You got that right!

I've never really cared one way or another about Bay's movies. They could be good or they could be bad, but to me they are all part of the hum that is Hollywood. Of course, I can always find several examples of actual bad movies (and the worst movie ever made, in my opinion) that will always be worse than anything Michael Bay will produce.
 

PotatoeMan

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Pain and gain is a great movie. I think it's seen as cool to dislike him but he's okay. I know loads of people that hate him but will happily watch other movies that they consider bad but not his.
 

youji itami

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ImBigBob said:
I saw the first Transformers movie out of curiosity and thought it was crap. Then they kept coming out with more, and people kept going to see them. All I could think was "Why the hell are these movies popular?"

Especially in a post-Avengers world, where you can have awesome explosions combined with good characters and stories. Guardians of the Galaxy can't get here fast enough.
I liked the Avengers but it didn't have a good story it was good action and funny quips with a 1 page story spread over 2 hours.
 

ron1n

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Be interested in seeing a Big Picture on the whole chicken/egg - studio/audience relationship.

I mean, while I agree with Bob's summary that the mainstream movie goer is the problem to a large extent, something also has to be said about the way Studios operate.

The current litany of 'reboots' and nostalgia shovel-ware being pumped out shows just how willing they are to milk every single successful IP dry, regardless of any damage done.

Not to mention the power of advertising of course. At the end of the day, are people watching things because they want to or because the marketing departments made them want to? *shrug* Age old debate that can be applied to a lot of things, but would love to hear Bob's arguments for and against.
 

bdcjacko

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Jun 9, 2010
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Jim Gaffigan has a routine about McDonald's being a guilt pleasure. Micheal Bay is a form of McDonalds.
 

Grim Sterling

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Ok now apply this kind of logic to Video games and the fact that so many practices and evolutions of the business is because of the audience, not entirely the publishers, and I'll be right there front row at yer other project (game overthinker). This logic, sadly, applies to a lot of modern (american) culture nowadays. For all the demonizing of Walmart lately, I still see people generally flocking to it come every holiday or event to stock up on stuff. For all the hate to EA and Activision and Ubisoft, they still somehow magically sell their games to million of fans. You want ot see schlock go away? Educate the masses. become a voice to inform and not just complain. Sadly, I still don't believe everyone is on the internet (a lot of folk are, but not nearly enough) so there is still this large swarm of uninformed, clueless populous that buy sell and make their decisions based on television, word of mouth, or gut instinct. And that is what drives sales.

Who do you think buys those shovelware budget games that are barely functional, rip off titles no real gamer would admit to trying (except for a laugh or to make a youtube video out of it as a laugh)? Who is buying up enough low budget schlock movies on dvd (or for those who can recall VHS) so they continue to be worth investing and making sequels to? A flock of people who just impulse buy, or buy accidentally thinking it is something else, or buy it completely ignorant of the poor quality.

I really don't see anything changing anytime soon, cause, ya know, "different strokes for different folks". I don't appreciate watching a lot of Kevin Smith's films, but I know a LOT of people really love them. No need to rally against them and decry all movies by him crimes upon humanity and ask for his resignation.

Except Uwe Boll. Fuck Uwe Boll lol

But seriously, it seems we're moving more and more into an age where tolerance is an afterthought and if things don't fit into MY SPACE and frame of reference it must be destroyed. And that is sad. I can appreciate seeing Del Toro films and still appreciate "The Room" (for very different reasons, mind you), so why can't others? I guess thats where I'm truly lost. Why does 'Dislike a thing' now sound like "hate the enemy" ?
 

RJ Dalton

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GamemasterAnthony said:
Yes...just, yes. The viewing public has, and always will be, the problem because they would much rather watch the flashy visuals and action sequences over the slower movie with an actual story.
A movie doesn't even have to be slow to have a solid plot. You can have intelligent, well-constructed movies that are fast-paced. It's exactly what Bob said, we're an ignorance worshiping culture. We hate the people who are intellectual because, give it long enough and any intellectual will say something that disagrees with our cherished political and/or religious beliefs and we are completely intolerant of anything that challenges what we believe.

Despite that, I still dislike Michael Bay and I don't consider either Bad Boys 2 or Pain and Gain to be that good. They aren't any better than his other films, they just happen to hit notes that film critics like instead of ones they don't. It's that, "I like what I agree with" mentality at play. His popularity may be a problem for the masses that consume his work, but he still makes that shit. There are people who make good movies that are still liked by the masses, so that doesn't excuse him.

. . .

Don't ask me what those movies are just at the moment, because I can't actually think of any. I'm sure one will occur to me if I devote enough time to thinking about it. At least, I hope one will.
 

wswordsmen

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Mar 27, 2009
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Bob evidently forgot he apologized to Michael Bay already, didn't take back any of the bad things he said about the movie, but he apologized for what he said about the man.
 

Symbio Joe

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Dec 7, 2010
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Well..... this .... It is all because you hate MURRICA, Bob!

It is going out on a limb in this genre I guess, but what happens everyday. The McDonalds analogy fits very well. The trick you manged here to do is not to sound like a smug/childish person but just present facts. We are wittnessing the full redemption ark from episode two to bob apologises to bob taking the moral highground without anyone being mad at him.
Go make a movie out of that one internet ;D.
 

BlumiereBleck

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Dec 11, 2008
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I'm actually surprised Bob admitted fault and agreed that he's part of the problem. Good job Bob.
 

el_emmens

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God I love how completely off the cuff and unscripted that last minute and fifteen seconds feels. It's like bob was going to go on to something completely rehearsed but he just lightbulbed a a revelation into his head and just rolled with it.

Bravo Bob
 

Lightknight

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Nov 26, 2008
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If it's what these people like, then why is it intrinsically a "problem"? I don't like a vast majority of "modern art" but I don't consider it to be a problem that a lot of people like. I just consider it to be a form of art that isn't suited to my tastes but is to other people.

I don't like the transformers movies for all the reasons Bob and so many others have espoused, but I'm not going to go so far as to call them a "problem" that needs to be fixed if there is a significant audience that enjoys them. It just means that suddenly we're not the target audience for a product that we grew up with and love. That's an odd concept that these movies aren't really for fans of the product, but I think Bob brings a reasonable case to the table on it.
 

LobsterFeng

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Well you apologized for the things for the things you said in that one Transformers review which is good, but I recall you insulting the intelligence of the people who like these movies which I didn't really appreciate. Then you ended up making the audience's intelligent the main problem for all of this. Way too go, Bob.

Oh and could you please make a video or something detailing why you think ASM2 is worse than Transformers 2? Because I find that pretty hard to believe. Your hatred for that franchise is becoming really ridiculous to the point where you can say Transformers is better.
 

Trishbot

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I will say, yes, I detest Michael Bay movies because, yes, he embodies almost ALL of the worst tropes of sleazy, greedy, stupid, ignorant Hollywood, turning minorities into wacky stereotypes, women into interchangeable sex objects, and "action" from something dynamic and interesting into unbearably boring, dull, sense-numbing meaninglessness.

But he's not alone. Yes, we hate on Michael Bay, but people are plenty upset at Brett Ratner as well, or Uwe Boll, or any other direct that has taken something positive and beloved and sucked the heart, soul, and joy out of it.

Yes, audiences are chiefly the problem (How to Train Your Dragon 2 and Edge of Tomorrow struggle at the box office, while Transformers 4 opens to record numbers...). This is the FOURTH stupid awful Transformers movie. Fool us once, shame on Michael Bay. Fool us twice, shame on us. Fool us three times, we're dribbling idiots. Fool us FOUR times, we're proof to aliens that intelligent life doesn't exist on earth.

From Optimus Prime vowing to leave humanity to die, "Tranformium" making Avatar's "unobtanium" look sensible by comparison, My Little Pony machine guns, and STATUTORY RAPE (seriously, Michael Bay?!) involving two of the lead human characters... the movie is bad, and the audience is bad for supporting it.

I haven't. I had enough. I'm done. A trailer of Optimus Prime riding a robot dinosaur into battle with a broadsword may sell tickets, but people aren't paying to see the rest of the crap. They are paying for a mountain of crap to find the gold nuggets buried inside, because that SHOULD be awesome and yet somehow isn't, or it's surrounded by so much filth that it doesn't matter.

I believe audiences pay for it because there's nothing else. No one else is making a Transformers movie. No one has been given that chance. The series, at heart, is beloved, if mutated by another man's juvenile vision involving robot testicles and humping dogs. It's like if the ONLY Batman movies you could ever see were directed by Joel Schaumacher and you never even knew a film like The Dark Knight could ever or would ever exist, so you pay to see your favorite hero on the big screen because nobody else is doing it and it's better than nothing, right?

I'll stick with nothing. Marvel has proved you can respect your material, respect your audience, and make more money than Transformers has at the box office. IMAGINE a Transformers film with the same level of sharp writing, joyful celebration of its history and fanbase, and tell me it would somehow make less money than what we continue to settle for.

Michael Bay is neither THE problem nor THE victim. He's one broken cog in a giant broken machine. He's an enabler. He's a contributor. He's not alone, but he's not someone I'll ever "leave alone".

Because how dare I stand against the masses, against him, and demand of him better quality. To demand he show my race, my culture, my gender, more respect than any of his movies have ever portrayed them as. How dare I sit back and let him peddle his wares and reap his millions while intelligent, thoughtful, creative directors out there struggle to pitch ideas outside of the "transformers" safe money zone.

So, welcome to our hell, MovieBob. Welcome to the same disgust and sad ambivalence you felt watching Amazing Spider-man 2 and realize, for us, that something like Transformers will not EVER get better because his films make money, while at least ASM2 under-performed. There is hope for Spider-man, and you can even tell, for all its flaws, that the people involved are TRYING not to suck, but just lack the talent or time to make it happen. Michael Bay, in his own words, "doesn't care" if you like the movie. His writer openly admitted "I don't care about making sense". Nobody cared...

... but I do. And it sucks to see both the industry and the audience give him a pass.
 

Oskuro

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Hmmm, I think the problem is not the audience per-se, but the culture of instant gratification and ignorance that creates it. Pity that Bob just briefly mentions it.
 

Seracen

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I never really had a problem with Bay, his movies are entertaining, if mindless, schlock...and there are plenty of films I can enjoy for such premises (eg: most 80's action movies).

However, that doesn't mean he gets a pass when he churns out crap, or entertains foolish ideas. After all, without such fan outcry...we'd likely STILL have TMNT with alien turtles (this is only a negative if the aliens would have somehow been a better story than what we are likely to get). These "soapbox" episodes aren't really my thing, so I shall end my comments here before they become rants...

It's always nice to hear Bob's anecdotes and dissection of popular culture. But this stuff...well, I just hope that Bob doesn't get too stressed out over this stuff...b/c he's really starting to sound dejected of late (then again, with this and last year's E3, who isn't?).
 

Netrigan

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Speaking as a Michael Bay convert... and one who enjoys all the "right" entertainment which so many bemoan doesn't have an audience because there aren't enough intelligent folks out there who support quality (although I confess I'm mystified by the obsession over Community which strikes me as a "aren't we so clever for referencing everything you ever loved" type of show), I don't think the problem is the audience.

Bay makes movies which a sizable chunk of the world find easy to be entertained by, and while you can't justify them on any kind of intellectual level, there's something to be said for just enjoying something because you like it.

Throughout my life I've seen people try to convince the world that has some greater meaning about the stupidity of people. At one point The Monkees were put forth as everything which was wrong with pop music (The Pre-Fab Four), right up until everyone decided that they were actually pretty damn good and worthy of our respect. I saw the same thing happen to a lot of the boy bands of the 80s, which are widely mocked at the time but are now a part of shared pop culture heritage and you can admit to liking a New Kids on the Block song without someone thinking you're retarded (I imagine one day the same will happen to Justin Bieber).

Big dumb action movies like Commando actually get put forth as good, not because of any previously unknown intellectual quality, but because everyone decided to agree that it was big, stupid fun and it's alright to enjoy big, stupid fun from time to time.

The best term for it is "lowest common denominator", which, sadly, has a fairly negative connotation. It shouldn't mean something bad, it should just mean that it's designed to be enjoyed by as many people as possible... and it shouldn't be surprising when it outperforms more targeted entertainment. The success of Transformers doesn't prevent the success of smaller, more intellectual fare... something which we're pretty much awash with on TV at the moment. It's just an exercise in pleasing the crowd. Back in the 90s, the most successful comic franchise was X-Men, which was as dumb (if not dumber) than anything Michael Bay has ever produced... and the industry still managed to create a whole lot of classic comics like Sandman and Preacher and Starman and so many more.
 

Ishigami

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Well I?m certainly not part of that particular problem since I avoid movies directed by Michael Bay or produced by Jerry Bruckheimer like the plague. Their names scream to me: You don?t like that, stay away!
As for why I don?t like these you said it Bob: Because of reason 1 and 2.
I stick to Christopher Nolan.

As for the majority of the US audience: Yea well fuck you guys for Master & Commander - The Far Side of the World.