The Big Picture: Maddening

[Takeda Shingen]

I respect Bob's opinion, as well as the opinion of many people here regarding Vick's worthiness for the Madden Cover. You are all certainly entitled to your view that Vick is a vicious man. You can argue that he is worthy of some of the worst labels we can give a person. I understand that some people will never forgive Vick for his actions, and that is ok.

Also, I agree that Americans give athletes far too much credit over other professions that provide equal if not greater contributions to the betterment of society. Americans built a ridiculous, messed up culture over here that certainly defies a rational first glance. And the NFL has a deeply sinister dark side. So many players have RAP sheets and dark pasts. Many players are grossly irresponsible individuals (80% of retired NFL players are in financial ruin). The NFL needs reform, as do America's priorities. I agree that there are many profoundly troubling problems here that Americans need to confront.

I would ask you guys to look at some of the other issues at hand here. For one thing, look at the way the media handled coverage of Vick's trial and crimes. Granted, Vick did not conduct himself at all admirably during the trial (the judge compelled him to tell the truth with a lie detector machine), yet at the same time the media would not stop haranguing Vick. Meanwhile, far worse things happened in the world. In just the NFL alone, plenty of NFL athletes and coaches have done despicable things. Roethlisberger, for instance, raped a woman and got away with it before the most recent season; most people do not talk about this incident anymore. Brett Favre sexually harassed a female team employee, and more people blame her for the incident. But Vick's crimes will continue coming up. Yes, they were brutal. Yes, they were unconscionable. Michael Vick is also African American. And in this country, we keep allowing our media to paint black men as criminals. People still bring up Ray Lewis' murder trial even though his charges were dropped a decade ago. People will keep talking about Vick's crimes for the rest of his life too. While his crimes were heinous, keep in mind that we keep hearing about Michael Vick partially due to American society still tacitly condoning the racist antagonism of American Americans.

Furthermore, consider Vick's background and you start to understand more of his psychology. I'm not asking you to excuse his crime, yet consider the way you judge the crimes. Vick grew up in a horrible neighborhood. He also grew up in the South. Dog fighting, cock fighting, and other such contests carry a little more social acceptance in that region of the nation. And some African American people hold very justifiable fears of dogs or even hate dogs, due to the fact that police excessively used dogs against civil rights demonstrators (not to mention that white supremacists and even slave owners also may have used dogs against black people). Getting back to Vick personally, he used his athletic ability to find success, but he also surrounded himself with many of the poisonous influences and relationships too many young athletes allow into their lives. There are plenty of stories about Michael Vick's (and his brother Marcus') bad behavior and notorious misdemeanors while at Virginia Tech. Michael Vick made it in the NFL, but even he admits his did not work as hard as he could and conducted himself unprofessionally. He made excuses for himself, and kept people in his life that encouraged him to make more excuses for himself. When you consider all of this information, it's easier to understand (while certainly not condoning) what Michael Vick did to those poor animals.

I understand why people get as emotional as Bob did about Michael Vick. Dogs are family members to some people. I owned a dog during childhood, I understand the perspective. At the same time, I cannot fathom relating Vick to the second coming of Hitler. Bob, I respect you a lot, so I need to say that I felt really disappointed to hear you say that about Vick. If you feel that way personally, fine, yet I do not think it?s responsible for someone with a large audience to make such a leap in a comparison. You vastly distort Vick?s actions while simultaneously undercutting your own argument by making this wildly emotional statement.

In conclusion, I will say that it?s fine to hate Vick for what he did. It?s fine to say he doesn?t deserve the Madden cover. When you judge Michael Vick, just keep in mind the way that you judge him, and why you judge him. To casually dismiss him as a scumbag diminishes his responsibility. To casually dismiss Michael Vick as a scumbag also lets us all off the hook for everything our society contributed to this awful crime.

 

[Takeda Shingen]

Dear Bob.

Here's the quote from you that has me livid:
"We're talking about Michael Vick, the guy who catches and throws a ball pretty good. He ain't really worth cutting a lot of slack to, you know what I mean?"
To suggest that we should make Michael Vick's life more difficult in part because you don't think his job is worth anything is ridiculous. It's not ANYONE'S right to judge a life based on a profession.

We SHOULDN'T overlook Vick's case or dismiss him as a thug because he's a talented football player. For one, athletes ARE valuable.
Many of us spend just as much time being entertained and inspired by their hard work than those who are entertained by blog talks like the one you write.

Today you belittled another person and encouraged your fans to make his life worse because "He ain't really worth cutting a lot of slack to, you know what I mean?" You have a wide and dedicated audience of people that listen to you. I'd hope that in future you write things with a little more responsibility and a little forethought.

Thank you for you time.

-Sebastien

Great point man. I hear you.

 

[ydkwidrmw]

This weeks topic is not the something I would describe as 'the big picture'.

 

[Takeda Shingen]

So Bob if you do really believe in forgiveness and rehabilitation, extend it to Vick. It happened years ago, he has been focusing on his career and not being the pokemon wiz-kid of dog-fighting.

There is too much emotion behind your statements. You don't forgive, you don't think he can suffer enough. Look up forgiveness and consider how you contradict yourself in the video.

Agreed. Forgiveness. Redemption. I think that they extend to Vick. I believe he is turning his life and his career around. Ray Lewis did a similar thing after his murder trial back in 2000. He's a pillar of Baltimore now. I really respect the man, for his game and what he does off the field.

Same thing about Vick. He talks to kids all over the country about the wrongs he committed so he can try to make things right. Not to mention, did you see his game against the Redskins? It was phenomenal. Amazing performance. Athletes like Vick, who can do incredible things, entertain us, and energize a whole city...they do have significant worth. Misplaced American priorities and unchecked capitalism have overblown their worth, but nonetheless I would hesitate from belittling the accomplishments of Vick and other NFL athletes.

 

[saxybeast418]

Moviebob, while I respect your opinion and sympathize with your moral objections to celebrating a man who tortured animals for sport, I completely disagree with this video.

First of all, animals are not afforded much weight on the morality scale unless you are, say, a practitioner of Hinduism, a vegan, etc. etc. However, assuming that you are not living on tofu and soy milk, your very existence depends on the rather horrific treatment of animals. Forget cutting them up and eating them, google some images of a milk farm some time, of cows hooked up to the Matrix's great great grandfather, literally sucking the life out of them (and yes, I am actually typing this while drinking a glass of milk).

It's not that I am unmoved by the suffering of animals, or cruelty directed against them. It's simply that I was born and raised in a tradition about as old as the human race itself:

Animals are not people. They are prey and tools. They do not think like we do, remember like we do, or possess morality as we do, and as they lack that higher thinking, the usual standards do not apply.

Does this excuse dog fighting? In my opinion, no. It is needlessly cruel, and puts the animals in a horrific amount of pain. It is unnecessary. However, in the same way that I have been raised in a culture in which the exploitation of animals for utilitarian purposes is not only accepted but often embraced, Michael Vick grew up in a culture in which the exploitation of animals for recreation was acceptable. This is how he was raised; I find the argument that he simply did not know better very convincing.

The point I'm trying to get at is that Michael Vick is not (necessarily) a monster. Again, this judgment is dependent on one's moral code, but as I am responding to an argument that arbitrarily singles out one form of animal cruelty amidst a myriad of animal cruelties that are commonly accepted, said moral code is not solid ground to stand on in this case.

And as far as his crime is concerned, I do believe him to have repented, served his time, and even rehabilitated. I'm not talking about the jail time, the financial losses, or the horrible publicity and public outrage that he endured.

No, I'm talking about his community service: He has become a spokesman for stopping dogfighting.

Yes, I know he became an advocate against animal cruelty out of necessity, and that he could very well not regret a single moment of his own dogfighting. I don't care. Michael Vick is the best thing to ever happen to the cause against dogfighting. Dogfighting is an underground practice that is geographically isolated, and was accordingly something that the public was mostly unaware of... until Michael Vick. He brought the issue front and center, and between the media frenzy and his subsequent community service and activism, he has helped bring light to this practice. Whether or not his motivations are self preservation or genuine regret are immaterial: the number of dogs he has helped to save outweighs the number of dogs he helped to murder.

 

[SelectivelyEvil13]

(1) EA backed down on the whole "Taliban" thing for Medal of Honor and it was a multiplayer skin.

(2) EA was hesitating attaching Tiger Woods to ANYTHING related to them because Woods cheated on his wife.

EA. What-The-F*#$???

It's bad enough that convicted felons get paid such exorbitant sums when I'm sure there are plenty of Americans who could just as easily take the sports spotlight.

Forgiving is one thing. Doing time is one thing. But that does NOT excuse a person like some kind of purifying ablution. With that logic, had Hitler just paid some penalty and said he was really, really sorry, then he should have been forgiven and his slate wiped clean. What do incidents like this Michael Vick ordeal show regarding accountability? That is the greatest crime of all.

Good job, Bob, very well said!

 

[Takeda Shingen]

I admit EA churns out terrible products without end. As an NFL fan though, it's important to stay connected to your team. Getting Madden means you can keep a year of your team's history in your hand. As a Saints fan, I feel obligated to someday buy Madden 2010; the Saints won the Superbowl, their stats are sick, and Drew Brees is on the cover. I just need to wait until I can afford the game and a PS3. So I will side with Bob on that one issue; the games themselves are sold at too high a price. Some games are works of art, Madden is not. The game would be a niche product for NFL fans, it just so happens that the NFL is the most popular sport in America.

 

[Takeda Shingen]

You, like a lot of people seem more satisfied with watching the man fall than what he actually fell for. And the idea that he has the audacity to TRY let alone SUCCEED in rising again brings out a bit of ugly in you and a lot of people.

As I have stated before, I dont think having him on the cover of Madden is a good idea, but this disdain for his existince based on dogfighting charges is ridiculous when coming from bug stomping, meat eating, leather wearing normal people. What it says to me is that it has little to do with the actual crime at hand and more to do with other "factors" of the person who did it.

Right on. This gets to the heart of what is so wrong with a lot of the Vick hate going on out there. Too many people just want to tear the man down because they can.

 

[Fanta Grape]

Bob, good video, but you seriously have to draw some lines as to where you're at. We don't get much idea of your religious or moral ideals, which normally would be irrelevant, but when you talk about stuff like this, it seems necessary.

 

[captainwillies]

Dog Fighting. The most horrible of crimes.

 

[MrGalactus]

I suggest we put bob on the cover.

Can we have our own poll and send it to EA? I think we should put forward Seijuro Shin and Charizard as well.

Oh well if we're doing this, I'd like to also nominate Vinny Jones, Gilbert Gottfried, Johnny Bravo, David Mitchell, Dawn French, and my friend Franco.

 

[t3h br0th3r]

Dog Fighting. The most horrible of crimes.

Pure, unleaded win

 

[darksakul]

If I have it my way Michale Vick would never play sports professionally again, and that would be the least of his punishment. Not because of Animal rights, but because Professional Athletes are supposed to be role models to the community. Children and teens look up to them, adults what to be like them, the opposite sex wants to be with them (women wanting to be with male athletes and men wanting to be with female athletes). Picture here is Professional athletes should be held to a higher standard of personal conduct both on and off the field than they are now.

If you commit the same crime, your employer would be justified in firing you once the news of your crimes hit the public purely out of the basis they no longer want you to represent their company. Which an employee of a company does, they represent their company where they want to or not regardless of position.

In my mind people like Michale Vick, Kobe Bryant and Ben Roethlisberger (so on and so on), when they disgrace them selves, they do not just tarnish their image, they tarnish the image of others in their team, league, sport and profession.

 

[Stickfigure]

Wish he'd refuted the "It's just a dog" thing.

Because really... they are just dogs. I don't get why cruelty to dogs gets such an immensely worse rep than a lot of other animal cruelty. Every dog owner I've met has been an irrational overexcited mess. Between them and their dogs, the dogs were usually the smart ones - and that's saying a lot, looking at those empty hurrdurr-faces of dogs.

Dogs as a species are almost entirely dependent on their masters. Cruelty towards them not only awful by virtue of it being a pretty terrible thing to do to another living thing, but because it is a perversion of a role we as humans established. There are few animals we have had more of a hand in controlling the development of, and that is saying something. We have bred them to make them more compliant, friendlier, and often to fit certain physical specifications. We have essentially been the strongest existing force not only in their development over thousands of years, but in their existence today. We have made ourselves the unquestioned rulers of these creatures. They trust their owners unquestioningly, because they have little sense or capacity to do anything else. To then take those thousands of years of bonding and selective breeding and simply throw them into a pit and make them devour each other because "It's what will make master happy" is a pretty heinous thing to do.

Not to mention dog fighting isn't just about what goes on in the ring. That's plenty bad, but there are the circumstances that lead to it. The animals aren't exactly living in stellar living arrangements between gentle sparring matches. They vicious tear into each other, often surviving only by the skin of their teeth, and often with massive injuries that will ensure defeat in future matches. They are then given fairly flimsy treatment (after all, one can hardly convincingly bring a dog trained to fight into a vet's office) and often left in utter squalor until the next fight. They are trained brutally, punished severely, and it's not like their working towards some greater reward.

Then there's the bait animal.

For those not in the know on this, the bait animal is an animal (often a smaller dog) who is tied to a stake or placed in a pen for the larger dogs to "train" on. This animal is pretty much mauled and killed by the larger dogs. There is no other outcome. They either get their mouths taped shut or they have all their teeth pulled out so they can't fight back, and then are basically tiny squeaking chew-toys for the dogs that are being trained to fight and die.

So, yeah, it's a pretty heinous crime being perpetrated against a species of animals that through millenia of selective breeding can't really think for themselves or even possess the self-awareness necessary to realize what is being done to them. Plus, this is almost exclusively practiced on dogs. Sure, there are cock fights, too, and they aren't exactly a representation of how far we've come as a species. Still, most domesticated animals do not occasionally get put into, say, an all-feline reimagining of "Bloodsport." Therefore, dog fighting is looked upon with a greater sense of disgust. As it should be.

 

[theevilsanta]

Bob hating on a guy that represents his childhood bullies with the convenient excuse that he did something a significant percent of the population finds unforgivable!!

Color me totally not surprised.

 

[theevilsanta]

Edit: doh

 

[Knight Templar]

I am astonished by the number of people who would defend torturing animals.
Because somebody who has done what this man has done, doesn't deserve to be the face of an entire franchise, however briefly.

Leaving aside the actions themselves, what kind of person sets out to do them?

EDIT:

Bob hating on a guy that represents his childhood bullies with the convenient excuse that he did something a significant percent of the population finds unforgivable!!

Color me totally no surprised.

Yes, this is purely a revenge trip for Bob's childhood. Has nothing to do with the fact the guy tortured animals for money.
Call it what it is, not "something a significant percent of the population finds unforgivable". You call it such because you know calling it what it is guts your post.

 

[Woem]

Maddening

MovieBob wonders why people keep buying Madden, and why anyone would want Michael Vick on the cover.

Watch Video

I'm glad you've got the guts to stand up for your opinion in such a prolific manner. Go Bob.