The Big Picture: Maddening

[feeqmatic]

You, like a lot of people seem more satisfied with watching the man fall than what he actually fell for. And the idea that he has the audacity to TRY let alone SUCCEED in rising again brings out a bit of ugly in you and a lot of people.

As I have stated before, I dont think having him on the cover of Madden is a good idea, but this disdain for his existince based on dogfighting charges is ridiculous when coming from bug stomping, meat eating, leather wearing normal people. What it says to me is that it has little to do with the actual crime at hand and more to do with other "factors" of the person who did it.

Right on. This gets to the heart of what is so wrong with a lot of the Vick hate going on out there. Too many people just want to tear the man down because they can.

You forget that many of us have a reason for disliking Vick. He didn't just kill a cattle to eat it nor kill some bugs because they invaded his home (not saying any of this happened, but it probably did). He had no reason, to have a dog fight for him only to gain profit. There's a difference on why people do things. I admit that things we do aren't justified sometimes and we need to learn our lessons, but it still doesn't excuse people like Vick for what he has done and people will remember that fact because it's been proven.

Society kills animals mainly to survive. We eat meat to grow healthy and not all are ok with eating just veggies (spite that it's really healthy and I got nothing wrong with that, but people simply won't just eat plant-like foods). Along that, people are into fashion so they wear things made from animals. I don't agree that it's ok, but they do so to keep warm or look nice. Yet, you cannot deny the fact that he used an innocent animal like a dog being the most noble creature known to man, fight to the death for no cause other then to gamble.

Not attacking you, but please take note that I am not against Vick cause I simply can. I'm against him because he has literally shown nor remorse or regret for having dogs kill each other for selfish purposes. You can claim/agree with the User you quoted that us discarding his existence is ridiculous, but let me ask you this - How far would you allow a man to go before seeing that he crossed the line? He didn't even serve full time.. he's a famous football player so he pretty much got a slap on the hand rather then what anyone else would of gotten. He's a football player, not a hero who risks his life.. all he does is throws a ball for people's entertainment. He has no credibility and shouldn't be spared criticism all because he is well-known or liked for his skills.

Also, the user above has insulted people for what he/she said. No one is perfect, but to judge us cannot go underway without judging yourself. Without right tensions, we can all point fingers and say how wrong someone is. But, in this situation- we all dislike Vick for his crime that is unbelievably low. That is declaring that he is not worthy of gaining the title of a Game's cover rather then judging him period. This is all I got to say and I hope you understand. When you stick up for someone, really understand the reason why rather then feeling you need to just because you feel that what he did was 'minor' or being taken seriously. Even the Staff here take it seriously, and Bob himself does. What is your reason to defend him? You don't have to answer but I want you to think carefully about that. For I know the reason why I am against him and that is he used his best friend to fight, bleeding out for what? So Vick could gain money and use his beloved pet again till it drops dead. There is no excuse..

[/Facepalm]...

1. please find the post where i insulted anyone so i can apologize to that individual. I may have come off abrasive toward one particular poster who seemed very ignorant from the get go, but i have insulted no one.

2. How do you define remorse? How else can vick show he is remorseful, he has apologized on several occasions in several scenarios. He has stayed out of trouble, and he has done more to help stop dogfighting than anyone else in the history of the issue. What else do you want from him to feel that he has been remorseful? Does he really need to chastise and relegate himself to never living a good life ever again to show remorse... really is that what you want? I doubt it, but i would love clarification.

3. The fashion and food industries have long documented atrocities far worse than anything Micheal Vick did. Im not saying this to excuse him, im just pointing out the immense hypocrisy in vehemently seeking Vick's head for participating in dogfighting, yet seem to have no issue with hunting, wearing leather, and eating inhumane/inorganically prepared meat. Yes i know meat and clothes are important factors to human life, but there are plenty of alternatives to the mainstream veins of this industry that show themselves to be much more humane to animals. Except hunting, the line between dogfighting and hunting is paper thin and i simply call BS on bob for being cool with hunting for sport but being completely outraged by dogfighting.

4. Everyone is either willfully or ignorantly disregarding the cultural and social aspect of this issue. In the world Mike Vick grew up in, dog fighting was not seen in the same horrible light. Im not saying that this makes it ok, but Bob and others have painted him with this broad brush of villainy without even trying to observe the totality of the issue. Bob analyzes society for a living so i find it hard to believe he couldnt understand that. It is willful ignorance created by hate, jealousy, and insecurity.

5. AGAIN, I DO NOT THINK HE SHOULD BE ON THE COVER OF MADDEN. But this blind, unreasonable hate towards him, this concept that he "cannot suffer enough," and that he should never be allowed to seek happiness agian is complete nonsense and i expected more sense out of bob who just came off as a butthurt hypocritical nerd with revenge fetish. You dont have to love or support Vick, but in America at least, we are known for second chances, sometimes even 3rd chances. To wish nothing but ill will towards a person is not just wrong... its damn stupid. ESPECIALLY when you are coming from a place of hate and hypocrisy.

 

[stonemaskstoryteller]

Just because there are much worse crimes in the world such as, raping and devouring babies, doesn't nessiairily make everything else above that acceptible. The punishment for everything else just won't be as extream.

Even so, though killing dogs may seem ok to some people based on the fact that animals do not have the equal moral rights to humans and though such a topic is still an unresolved debate these days, this does not justify the act of killing for entertainment.

I know we kill some animals in order to obtain resources and survive, but different animals have different rights according to their varying levels of self-awareness, rarity, domesticality...etc etc(this is where the laws get complicated.) In the case of dogs however, they being domestic animals, we have no need to kill them for our own gain and therefore harming or killing such creatures for entertainment would be seen at the very least be seen as unessiary and senseless.

Personally? The idea that anyone would needlessly exploit/harm other sentinet beings purely for entertainment and the fact that they don't have equal rights, whether they be human, animal or bugs from out of space, to me seems just downright cruel.

insidentally, Perhaps EA should stop fussing over sport so much and have notable movie critics on the cover of their games?

 

[Arkynomicon]

I found that dogs can often be more sympathetic and more loyal friends then most people. So when people take advantage of them in such a horrible way I tend to get pissed off a lot.

I also think that people tend to forget that Dogs are valuable assets to our society as well. They help blind people living a richer life, can track criminals and people gone missing, they can sniff out drugs and harmful things like bombs, they give pet-owners daily exercise, they give companionship to lonely people, some of them can even tell if you are ill just by smelling you and the list goes on.

So people mistreating dogs is taking advantage of one of humanitys best friends is sickening.

 

[duck-man]

Well this is the sort of philosophical argument I enjoy!
I'm afraid that I'm of the opinion that there's no such thing as irredeemable: No matter what a person's done in the past all that ought to matter is what they're going to do and how they're going to think from here onwards.
However, more socially speaking, there's obvious issues with trust! Obvious. I'd have to agree that it's VERY dodgey to be making him any kind of public icon but that all depends on how much trust he's reclaimed.
Forgiveness isn't about saying that what they did was understandable or in any way ok, but rather to say that who they are Now is acceptable, or Ought to be, in my opinion. But even with that last disclaimer it sounds preachy...

So yea, as someone who doesn't know the person at all or the issue (very well) I really can't form an opinion on this particular case, but that If he is to be placed on the cover then he'd better have been forgiven first, by previous definition of forgiven. Right?
P.S. When someone's judged by their past and any action against them is taken Solely on that, that's just retribution, Right?
P.P.S. Aught? Ought? Ort!

 

[Dwachak]

Completely agree with you Bob. I myself stopped watching =3 on youtube because Ray made fun of a dog getting trampled by a deer. Don't know if you know the show, but even that little is enough for me to write off a person.. With Vic I would probably slap him if I ever met him =( And you really summed up my thoughts on how most animals can't be evil, they just don't have the disposition for it.

Edit: Ok I wouldn't slap him, I just got fired up (happens easily when I hear of animal cruelty), but I would proclaim my thoughts loudly.. or well maybe just say that I recent him.. or just an evil look.. ok I would probably just send mind-waves at him to make him fall and scrape his knee, but it would be heavy mind-waves!

 

[PunkRex]

I suggest we put bob on the cover.

Can we have our own poll and send it to EA? I think we should put forward Seijuro Shin and Charizard as well.

Oh well if we're doing this, I'd like to also nominate Vinny Jones, Gilbert Gottfried, Johnny Bravo, David Mitchell, Dawn French, and my friend Franco.

Dont forget Fluttershy!

 

[Dana22]

Dont go to Spain. Torturing and killing animals (bulls) there is a part of tradition

 

[Leonemian]

I both agree and disagree with Bob. I think that the Madden games are terrible games because they are terrible games, and should be judged on their status and worth as games, not judged because they are about football, as odd as that sounds. And I believe that Michael Vick IS totally in the wrong for this. For one thing, if I had done this, (which I have not) and I had really decided to turn my life around or attempt to atone for what I had done, than I probably would have done something along the lines of donated all of my money to a dog shelter, or tried to put myself through exactly what my victims did. Side note, I have a dog, so this hits really close to home for me. But Vick did not. Yes, he served out the extent of his sentence, but that, in my eyes, is not atonement. That is what he was forced to do. That was his government-ordered punishment. I see no evidence that he holds himself responsible for the atrocity he committed. And that, in a nutshell, is why I believe that, without evidence to the contrary, Michael Vick, is in fact "A horrible, terrible waste of a human life." On this, Bob and I agree.

However, I don't think that that should take him out of the running for the cover of the Madden NFL games. I think that if the NFL is going to let him continue to play despite his charges, that is disreputable, but their choice. And so, from a logical point of view, I can see EA's excuse. They are judging him for a football game, not on his status as a human being, but on his skill at playing football. If EA gives that as its excuse, I will accept it. They are, after all, making a game about football, and would probably want the best football player to be their mascot. But they have not given this excuse. They have not given any excuse. And so, I must return to my original conclusion. That Michael Vick is a terrible person, and that EA is a terrible, terrible, TERRIBLE, video game company. And with that, I wish EA and Mr. Vick, a profitable and long relationship. And I, for one, agree with Bob's big picture. Again.

 

[Gottesstrafe]

I'm I they only one that smiled a bit at the thought of Bob getting a justified beating, I felt bad about feeling good about that afterwards, but still.

As for Vick winning, its the internet, I feel they are deliberately voting the choice that will make the game have a bad public image for the sake of laughs. Its not because they support him, they just find it funny that someone with a lot of hate gets rewarded and they get to watch people get angry over it. So yeah EA shouldn't have put him in the the running in the first place, but the internets going to do what it always does. The internet voted that a bridge in hungry be named after Stephen Colbert, a british special forces group use the Team Gurren symbol, and that Justin Beiber be sent to North Korea, all for laughs.

You forgot to mention the internet voting Pedobear as Miley Cyrus's #1 Fan, Rick Astley as the winner of MTV Europe's "Best Act Ever" award, and Bristol Palin into 3rd place for Dancing With the Stars 2010.

 

[stonemaskstoryteller]

This is a good point. EA's terrible games and Michael Vick's terrible reputation for beating dogs have nothing to do with one another so noone has any moral obligation to stop his face from appearing on a sports game. HOWEVER, if anyone, it is EA who will crash and burn becuase of this decision.

It's like advertizing Hitler's face on a cookbook. No matter how good or bad a cook Hitler may be, or how groundbreaking the new book may seem, ultimately it is the consumer who decides whether they want to purchase a book with a genocidal dictator on the front. And considering his reputation, it's proberbly not going to sell like hot cakes.

I say; by all means voice your opinions about him, but if EA want to go through with this then they're the ones who will suffer as a company for their bad move.

 

[Optimystic]

Poor Bob, he sounds so sad at the end.

He's appealing to reason... from EA. It's sort of where hope goes to die, you know?

 

[Takeda Shingen]

No, I'm talking about his community service: He has become a spokesman for stopping dogfighting.

Yes, I know he became an advocate against animal cruelty out of necessity, and that he could very well not regret a single moment of his own dogfighting. I don't care. Michael Vick is the best thing to ever happen to the cause against dogfighting. Dogfighting is an underground practice that is geographically isolated, and was accordingly something that the public was mostly unaware of... until Michael Vick. He brought the issue front and center, and between the media frenzy and his subsequent community service and activism, he has helped bring light to this practice. Whether or not his motivations are self preservation or genuine regret are immaterial: the number of dogs he has helped to save outweighs the number of dogs he helped to murder.

Yes, thank you. I'm not sure why people keep forgetting about the community service he's been doing.

Doesn't justify what he did, but at least he's making some kind of effort (unwilling or willingly) to make up for the things he did.

 

[JamesStone]

I agree 100%. This guy is a big fat douche and shouldn´t be forgiven just because is paid a ungodly amount of cash to play "get the ball" all day long.

 

[JamesStone]

I agree 100%. This guy is a big fat douche and shouldn´t be forgiven just because is paid a ungodly amount of cash to play "get the ball" all day long.

 

[matt87_50]

I agree 100%...

its like this... is the murder of a little child more despicable than the murder of a 20 something yearold?

of course it is...

why?


...


and thats why I think crimes against animals are Majorly under rated (by which I mean not frowned upon enough)



and for those who think that "someone who thinks that this is as evil a crime as murdering a person, yet eats meat and wears fur coats, is a HYPOCRITE!!" I could explain how you are wrong... but I can't be bothered...

just... you are wrong!

 

[twiceworn]

this has to be a joke its just too pants on head retarded to be anything else.
tem me se if i am getting this right he did somthing bad got punished said he was sorry started to turn his life around and and managed to get his life back together.......AND YOU STILL HATE HIM?????????????????????????
WTF HE PAYED FOR HIS CRIMES HE SAID SORRY WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT YOU SAID YOU AGREE WITH FORGIVNES BUT NOT FOR A MAN WHO RAN DOGFIGHTS??????????????????????

this is a troll video bob just trolled everyone and it worked so i say again it is a joke

(I am still happy and untrolled)

 

[Takeda Shingen]

I'm against him because he has literally shown nor remorse or regret for having dogs kill each other for selfish purposes

... he's a famous football player so he pretty much got a slap on the hand rather then what anyone else would of gotten. He's a football player, not a hero who risks his life.. all he does is throws a ball for people's entertainment. He has no credibility and shouldn't be spared criticism all because he is well-known or liked for his skills.

...When you stick up for someone, really understand the reason why rather then feeling you need to just because you feel that what he did was 'minor' or being taken seriously. Even the Staff here take it seriously, and Bob himself does. What is your reason to defend him? You don't have to answer but I want you to think carefully about that. For I know the reason why I am against him and that is he used his best friend to fight, bleeding out for what? So Vick could gain money and use his beloved pet again till it drops dead. There is no excuse..

I respect your opinion about Vick. I think it's fine that some people will never forgive him. I think it's legit that people say he shouldn't be on the Madden cover. What I disagree with is people calling down hellfire and wishing all the world's ills on Vick. I think to many people are too quick to make an emotional decision about Vick because of brutality of his crime and that his victims were dogs. I also think that racism and Vick's status as an athlete/celebrity account on some level for a lot of the hatred thrown his way.

a.) I'm not sure any of us will truly know if Vick feels remorse. On the other hand, his actions demonstrate that on some level he accepts accountability for his actions. He gives a substantial amount of his salary back to charities that stop dog fighting. He also speaks on a regular basis about the evils of dog fighting. Furthermore, he's a different person since he last was in the game. At Atlanta, he just rode his natural athletic ability. He showed up to meetings late, ate horribly, admitted that he did not really care. In Philly, he's a professional. Shows up on time, eats right, works out. Some people may not accept that as a sign that he's any different, but a radical change in his professional attitude suggests he understands his life can change, that it's got to change.

b.) I would hesitate from calling years in jail, millions in forfeited salary, and incessant condemnation by the media a slap on the wrist. As a human being he deserves some level of consideration and understanding. You just made this less about dog-fighthing and more about the fact that you think Vick's career has no social worth. Maybe you don't like football, that's fine, but do not condemn someone just on the basis of their profession.

c.) If you read my earlier posts, you'll see that I take this very seriously. I don't condone Vick's crimes, I'm not sure if I can ever fully forgive him myself. At the same time, what he did is a lot more complex than a man deciding he's going to make the lives of dogs miserable. You don't even know if Vick had any reason to consider those animals his beloved pets. Defending Vick is too strong a phrase. Rather, I challenge you to consider that all the controversy surrounding Vick involves way more than just the generally accepted notion that dogfighting is brutal and evil. So when you decide to hate someone, really understand the reason why rather than just throwing all of your anger at that person in an emotional response.