The Big Picture: Maddening

[walsfeo]

Unpopular opinion incoming:
I'm voting for him. He had a great year and Philly was heading for a 7-9 record without him. Was what he did horrible? Yes, but he served the time he was given for it. End of story.

Yeah, he served his time so he's out of jail. I suppose I can support that he's out of jail - or at least not ***** about it.

However it is not unreasonable for past actions, especially past actions as atrocious as these, to continue to have a negative impact on the rest of his life.

Yeah, he paid his debt, but that doesn't mean the past should be forgotten.

 

[RedEyesBlackGamer]

Also, I doubt Bob follows football too much. "Catches and throws a ball"? Really? He is a quarterback, not a receiver. And your bias against athletes is showing, Bob.

 

[Griffolion]

"It's not that i don't believe in forgiveness or rehabilitation, because i do."

Clearly Bob, clearly.

You aren't perfect yourself, i don't care if you haven't done anything as bad as dog torture, but you've probably done stuff wrong.

My suggestion, go see a counselor, you clearly have issues that require attention Bob.

 

[Terminal Blue]

I should probably say, there's more to dog fighting than putting two dogs in a ring and letting them go at it.

Dogs, even fighting dogs, generally won't fight each other for no reason. You know how you get them to do so? You torture them.. you abuse them.. you inflict pain on them for months and months and months until they are sufficiently maddened and aggressive to just go for anything that moves.

Heck.. get a tyre and hang it from the ceiling. Force the dog to bite the tire. Rope the dog's jaw in place so that the dog is hanging from the tyre in mid air. Leave the dog there for as long as you want, in agonizing pain, carrying its entire weight on its jaws. The longer the better. Do this day after day, week after week. It builds up jaw strength and aggression at the same time.

And why would you do this.. for food? for survival? even religious or cultural obligation? No, for entertainment and gambling profits. I don't care how much you feel a human life is worth relative to an animal because we're not talking about trading a human life for an animal life or any really difficult question, we're talking about prolonged physical torture which inflicts obvious, discernible suffering so that you can make a quick buck or just get off on the experience of watching.

On top of that.. these people don't generally buy the dogs or breed them because that takes too long and raises too much suspicion. No, they generally just go out and steal family pets. If you think there's no human suffering involved, maybe consider the fate of those people whose animals are stolen, who have to live with the fact that a creature they've raised and loved and invested time in will spend the rest of its short, miserable life being tortured until it ultimately bleeds mercifully to death.

I keep 'fighting' dogs. I really couldn't have asked for better, gentler, more lovely pets. If something like that were to happen to them I really can't describe how that would feel. It's not fair that I live with that possibility so that utter cunts like this can get their jollies.

 

[Harry Mason]

Spot on, Mr. Bob.

I believe in second chances, but it's a lot easier to give someone a second chance for something impassioned they did in the heat of the moment. This dirt-bag (who I hated BEFORE he got busted) did something calculated over a span of YEARS. Anyone who thinks a psyche than can not only withstand, but derive PLEASURE from violently goading animals into tearing each others organs out, isn't going to be healed from a year and a half of being in prison. I'd be shocked if anything had changed about the man other than being slightly more careful about his actions.

It not about whether he can stop his illegal activities, it's about setting a precedent for not tolerating that kind of behavior from anyone. If I broke the rules at the hardware store I work at, I would be fired. My second chance would be at another job.

Seriously. Fuck this guy and fuck all the other rapists and murderers who get second chances in the money pit of the American Sports industry.

/Hippie rage

 

[SanguineSymphony]

Rape is far worse than animal murder in my opinion...

And honestly I don't care and neither really should you. I am fairly certain Bob's not buying Madden 2012 and I know I am not. If it gets lower sales because of this they deserve it. If it gets about average or better the fans and game deserve each other.

 

[Gunnyboy]

I really don't see the big deal. (About the cover, not the fighting ring.) I also don't respect the derision towards professional athletes. In the pantheon of society, they've always been held in high regard. Why? Because they're the pinnacle of athletic achievement. It takes a lot more skill play a sport at the highest level, than it does to spit paint on a canvas and call it expressionistic art.

In fact after watching this video, I went and voted for Vick (and Peyton Hillis).

Are you saying sportstars are more important in/for our culture than abstract art?

Is there really any doubt?

 

[goliath6711]

Well, I'm not going to go through the whole list of disclamers required to prove that I'm against any type of animal abuse, because I am. And my living in Philadelphia and being an Eagles' fan has no bearing on what I'm about to say. So I'll come right out and say it:

EVERY SINGLE PERSON WHO SAYS THAT MICHAEL VICK DESERVES TO DIE IS A DAMN HYPOCRATE.

You're all supposed to be the enlightened ones with higher moral standards. The ones that are supposed to be better than this "lowly ex-convict". And what do you do? You prove to be just as violent and vulgar, if not more, than the man that you claim to despise. Yes, I said MAN. Despite Bob's attempted claim to the contrary, Michael Vick is a human being. Why? Because that's what he was born as. I hate to break this to you (actually I don't) but being human isn't part of some high-society social club. If a shark kills another shark, it doesn't suddenly become a gerbil that has to pass through some ritual to become a shark again. If you put a serial killer and a law-abiding father of two in a pit with a hungry lion, who is the lion going to kill? The one it can get to first. If you have your own problems with forgiveness, that's one thing. But don't come here with this holier-than-thou stance on how animal life should be protected while screaming the torturous death of another human being.

And speaking of forgiveness, let's fast-forward about 40 years or so. Let's say that Michael Vick continues to be the remorseful, upstanding citizen he is trying to be now. Will your rage towards him be as hot as it is now? And if so, how will you look to other people who will have simmered down in that time?

And finally, the whole "He's a millionaire he can hide from his troubles in a pile of money" crap, like he deserves to be shunned even more because of this. Well, Michael Douglas is a millionaire and he almost died of cancer. Did he deserve to get it over an average person because of his wealth? So despite the belief to the contrary, money doesn't cure all woes.

So in closing, if Michael Vick loses the Madden 12 cover, he should lose it honestly. Not as a result of some hate-filled stand disguised as a "moral victory". If so, every one of you will prove that you do not deserve the respect that you claim to have.

 

[House_Vet]

Would those people saying "it's just a dog" please consider the fact that a dog has the level of understanding of your average 3-5 year-old HUMAN child?

Pause for a minute. Is not the torture and murder of innocents (prime example being children) one of the worst crimes imaginable? For example, Baby P, Damilola Taylor, Jamie Bulger. We have a special connection to these cases because children also symbolise our future, but objectively the act is the same. (I refuse to put 'IMHO' or whatever at this point, I'm sick of walking on eggshells).

Bob is spot on. I'm a vet, but I eat meat, and have and will continue to put animals out of their misery for as long as I am working. As a profession, veterinary care is often equated to Paediatrics, because the patients are difficult to work with, and you must first communicate with those responsible for them.

A dog's place in my home is as a family member, plain and simple. They are my charges, and I love them as they love me, unconditionally. The breach of that kind of trust is evil. It is the torture and murder of those who would otherwise love you most, a truly hideous crime. This is not a comparison to rape, murder, etc. Murder, (but not rape) is occasionally justifiable, though we like to dress it up as 'capital punishment' or sanctioned and 'humane' killing.

Come in my house and threaten those I love (Girlfriend, parents or dogs) and you are in severe danger of losing your life. I can justify this to myself, if not as a Christian, then at least as a human. The killing of those to whom we bear responsibility cannot be justified, for any reason, at any time.

 

[House_Vet]

EVERY SINGLE PERSON WHO SAYS THAT MICHAEL VICK DESERVES TO DIE IS A DAMN HYPOCRATE.

You're all supposed to be the enlightened ones with higher moral standards. The ones that are supposed to be better than this "lowly ex-convict". And what do you do? You prove to be just as violent and vulgar, if not more, than the man that you claim to despise. Yes, I said MAN. Despite Bob's attempted claim to the contrary, Michael Vick is a human being. Why? Because that's what he was born as. I hate to break this to you (actually I don't) but being human isn't part of some high-society social club. If a shark kills another shark, it doesn't suddenly become a gerbil that has to pass through some ritual to become a shark again. If you put a serial killer and a law-abiding father of two in a pit with a hungry lion, who is the lion going to kill? The one it can get to first. If you have your own problems with forgiveness, that's one thing. But don't come here with this holier-than-thou stance on how animal life should be protected while screaming the torturous death of another human being.

Your first statement is, of course, correct.

Anybody saying that last is simply allowing the internet to run their mouth for them. This paragraph doesn't really cohere as an argument either - are you saying that 'he who is sinless should cast the first stone'? Well shucks, that's great, but nobody here is ACTUALLY proposing capital punishment (I think =S). Despite this, the MAN as you so aptly put it should be pilloried, shunned and removed from privileges. Why? Because he is a disgrace as a MAN (or woman - sneaky Python quote FTW!). Thus, Vick should lose the cover, and 'honestly' as you put it. This is not equivalent to his death, this is not hypocritical; he did something terrible, he was punished (lightly) and he retains all prior privileges and trust. This is not deserving of a pat on the head, good football or not.

So in closing, if Michael Vick loses the Madden 12 cover, he should lose it honestly. Not as a result of some hate-filled stand disguised as a "moral victory". If so, every one of you will prove that you do not deserve the respect that you claim to have.

 

[norwegian-guy]

I really don't see the big deal. (About the cover, not the fighting ring.) I also don't respect the derision towards professional athletes. In the pantheon of society, they've always been held in high regard. Why? Because they're the pinnacle of athletic achievement. It takes a lot more skill play a sport at the highest level, than it does to spit paint on a canvas and call it expressionistic art.

In fact after watching this video, I went and voted for Vick (and Peyton Hillis).

Are you saying sportstars are more important in/for our culture than abstract art?

Is there really any doubt?

And this is what we call cultural degradation.

 

[snyderman8910]

Michael Vick tortured and killed animals for sport. Movie Bob owns a hunting and fishing license. There's a difference between eating meat and going out and killing animals for fun. I'm not saying hunting is the worst thing ever, I just don't get out how you can condemn dog-fighting but support hunting. They're both unsavory in my book.

Are you seriously comparing dog fighting to hunting and fishing? When you hunt or fish, you are required to prepare, and wait for extended periods of time. It takes patience, knowledge and skill. Also, both activities are heavily regulated by the government. Hunters are required to have a license and only allowed to hunt during certain times with certain weapons. And if a Game Warden discovers you hunting during the wrong season, or without a license, or any other infraction like having too many kills, be prepared to lose your license and face any number of penalties.

Oh, and hunters and fishermen are known to do more to support wildlife than any other group. They give more money, and their organizations do more to fight to protect wilderness and wildlife than pretty much any other group. Also, every hunter I've ever talked to truly respects and enjoys nature.

By the way. I don't hunt or fish. I find both to be boring and I refuse to wake up early enough to do either activity.[/quote]

Are you saying that it doesn't take patience, knowledge or skill to dogfight? I imagine the husbandry and training for the dogs are quite complex and require a lot of time, money and skill. If governments regulated dog-fighting the way they do hunting or fishing, would it be seen as acceptable? Probably not. If Michael Vick gave generously to animal rescue organizations would we see what he had done as ok? I understand how the two things seem different and in many ways they are. I think dog-fighting is probably worse than hunting. But I do feel they are similar enough that when movie bob condemns Michael Vick to what it seemed to me was being permanently ostracized, he's being a little hypocritical if he owns a hunting and fishing license. That's all I'm saying.

 

[Gordon_4_v1legacy]

Well, he's had the justice of the court, but as is always the case, judging the sincerity of any statement of remorse or indeed any kind of strong feeling or opinion is going to be taken as a grain of salt and more scrutiny than it probably deserves.

That said, if he was too stupid to realise animal torture in his own home for profit and entertainment was not kosher, then he's a dumb fuck. In fact, I believe someone else posted that dog fights are likened to underground pit fighting.

So lets take Mr. Vick, an athlete at the peak of fitness and throw him in a pit fight with someone who would be willing to kill him because they fear for their own life: that should really hammer home what he did.

 

[WIUtomato]

DEAR GOD IN HEAVEN THANK YOU FOR THE VICK PART... *ahem* sorry for shouting, but I completely agree w/ you on this one, we shouldn't be rewarding this savage with tons of money because he can handle a football and ignore his blatant acts of barbarism! Thank You MB!

 

[winter2]

I think we should have Vick do a pay per view event where he wrestles a grizzly bear.

Then we can move on.

 

[maninahat]

Seriously, guys? NOBODY believes in second chances? I thought that the justice system was designed to rehabilitate people, and Vick seems to be rehabilitated (unlike countless others who have not changed their ways).

Not in shit like this. Ever.

This isn't a guy who was struggling to make a living.He had more money back then than either of us will probably ever seen in our entire lives.

This isn't a guy who was extremely unbalanced or deeply emotionally scarred. He was living like a fucking king.

He just wanted more cash he didn't even need, and he saw it as appropriate to torture and kill other lives for it. There was no physical or psychological "need" in all of this. There was only "want". As far as I'm concerned he can die in a chemical fire while being drowned and electrocuted at the same time.

But did he see it as "torture" or just "entertainment" with animals? Some vegan pointed out how we are fine with keeping farm animals in terrible conditions, but we have an issue only when animals are exploited for entertainment. That vegan was derided for comparing two totally different things (food is vital, entertainment is an optional extra), but just as we can choose our own entertainment, we can clearly choose our diet. There are many cultures that live almost exclusively on vegetable diets, illustrating that we blood-sport hating folk are perfectly happy with killing billions of animals even when presented with the more moral and economical choice not to. I think the vegan is right: though entertainment will never be as necessary as food for survival (thus making blood sports a far graver crime than meat eating could ever be), we still are making similar choices in how we serve these necessities.

 

[maninahat]

Michael Vick tortured and killed animals for sport. Movie Bob owns a hunting and fishing license. There's a difference between eating meat and going out and killing animals for fun. I'm not saying hunting is the worst thing ever, I just don't get out how you can condemn dog-fighting but support hunting. They're both unsavory in my book.

Oh, and hunters and fishermen are known to do more to support wildlife than any other group. They give more money, and their organizations do more to fight to protect wilderness and wildlife than pretty much any other group. Also, every hunter I've ever talked to truly respects and enjoys nature.

By the way. I don't hunt or fish. I find both to be boring and I refuse to wake up early enough to do either activity.

Are you saying that it doesn't take patience, knowledge or skill to dogfight? I imagine the husbandry and training for the dogs are quite complex and require a lot of time, money and skill. If governments regulated dog-fighting the way they do hunting or fishing, would it be seen as acceptable? Probably not. If Michael Vick gave generously to animal rescue organizations would we see what he had done as ok? I understand how the two things seem different and in many ways they are. I think dog-fighting is probably worse than hunting. But I do feel they are similar enough that when movie bob condemns Michael Vick to what it seemed to me was being permanently ostracized, he's being a little hypocritical if he owns a hunting and fishing license. That's all I'm saying.

Especially when they are all forms of optional entertainment for American Joes. It isn't as if the average American in this day and age has to hunt or fish. They freely choose to, at the expense of the suffering of blameless animals. Blood sports are obviously the most unpleasant and cruellest of all these sports, but hunting and fishing are still pretty unpleasant. Just because the hunter "respects nature" or "donates to wildlife" or requires "skills" doesn't change the ultimate fact that we, above all, kill animals for the entertainment of it.

 

[maninahat]

Would those people saying "it's just a dog" please consider the fact that a dog has the level of understanding of your average 3-5 year-old HUMAN child?

Pause for a minute. Is not the torture and murder of innocents (prime example being children) one of the worst crimes imaginable? For example, Baby P, Damilola Taylor, Jamie Bulger. We have a special connection to these cases because children also symbolise our future, but objectively the act is the same. (I refuse to put 'IMHO' or whatever at this point, I'm sick of walking on eggshells).

Bob is spot on. I'm a vet, but I eat meat, and have and will continue to put animals out of their misery for as long as I am working. As a profession, veterinary care is often equated to Paediatrics, because the patients are difficult to work with, and you must first communicate with those responsible for them.

A dog's place in my home is as a family member, plain and simple. They are my charges, and I love them as they love me, unconditionally. The breach of that kind of trust is evil. It is the torture and murder of those who would otherwise love you most, a truly hideous crime. This is not a comparison to rape, murder, etc. Murder, (but not rape) is occasionally justifiable, though we like to dress it up as 'capital punishment' or sanctioned and 'humane' killing.

Come in my house and threaten those I love (Girlfriend, parents or dogs) and you are in severe danger of losing your life. I can justify this to myself, if not as a Christian, then at least as a human. The killing of those to whom we bear responsibility cannot be justified, for any reason, at any time.

I heard dogs are delicious. Does that count as justified? Perhaps you could try justifying eating beef to a cow loving Hindu. All I'm saying is that if you are prepared to say "no justification whatsoever", then you should live by that creed with all animals, become a vegan, stop wearing leather etc. Apologies if you already do all of that.

 

[The Naked Emperor]

Especially when they are all forms of optional entertainment for American Joes. It isn't as if the average American in this day and age has to hunt or fish. They freely choose to, at the expense of the suffering of blameless animals. Blood sports are obviously the most unpleasant and cruellest of all these sports, but hunting and fishing are still pretty unpleasant. Just because the hunter "respects nature" or "donates to wildlife" or requires "skills" doesn't change the ultimate fact that we, above all, kill animals for the entertainment of it.

If people didn't hunt local animal populations would explode in some areas, not to mention that taking a hands-on approach encourages people to develop a respect for the animals they eat. It's not strictly necessary, no, but factory farms are so far removed from the natural process that by the time we pick up meat at the store it looks nothing like the animal it came from. It's convenient but in many ways it's also dehumanizing. I'm not against super market meat but I'd never want that to be the only option.

Aside from that, if you want wild game the only way to get it is to hunt for it, and meats like venison are some of the healthiest you can eat. Even if you remove the philosophical aspect from hunting and do it for pure pleasure, you still get something you can use. That alone separates it from dog fighting.