The Big Picture: Maddening

[Quak0r]

Forgiving someone, or believing they have redeemed themselves, does not mean forestalling the logical consequences of those actions. It is not wrong, unforgiving, or uncharitable to vehemently want to deny Vick this spot. He paid his legal debt to society, and that's fine. It means he cannot be punished again, but refusing to honor something is not the same as punishment.

While I agree with your reasoning on the whole I must nitpick about your last statement. Punishment is adding something negative or removing something positive. So refusing to honor something is punishment, not punishment by law in this case but still punishment.

 

[Ancientgamer]

Wow, cry me a river.

There's something of a sliding scale here. He spent 2 years in jail and went bankrupt, There's a spot between "Ok to kill and torture animals" and "die in a fire". What he did was not okay, he killed dogs for fun and profit. But to say that is irredeemable, is, in my eyes a hypocritical and hideous thing to claim.

What we have here is (vile) mobs screaming for blood because their "Oh so refined sensibilities were offended." Moviebob handwaved that he has a hunting & fishing license but, no wait, go back to that. It completely fucking invalidates his point! What's the huge difference here between deer and dogs? Between Fish and Dogs? How about between the dogs and the animals that became the meat you said you eat? Or whose skin became the leather on your belt? You go "yeah yeah" with that ridiculous voice of utter contempt you have, but in the end you're nothing but a big, whiny, intellectually dishonest hypocrite. And that goes for all the other hypocrites supporting you in this thread, wishing death and pain on another human being because he fucking killed some dogs.

 

[Loonerinoes]

Prison is the punishment. The ENTIRE purpose of it is to set an amount of time that - if we're going to be crude about it - evens out the balance sheets. Designating the punishment is the job of a judge, not any of us.

That would be true, but this forum is full of Gen Y. And if there's anything that Gen Y wants to be it's to be judge, jury and most especially executioner.

 

[Galliam]

I seem to be in the minority here, but I basically HAVE forgiven him. If he hasn't done it anymore since he got out of jail and has spoken out against his own actions, denying him forgiveness is pointless. I've said it before, we should try and let him move on. If he goes back to the old ways, fine, you win. But until that time he is just a guy trying to do better.

 

[Snooder]

I'll never understand why people care about Micheal Vick being on the Madden cover. He's a football player. Apparently a good one. Whatever he does outside football does not and should not matter.

I personally don't care either way about what he did. I wouldn't do it, but I'm not really all to wound up about it. What I am wound up about is the idea that an athlete, a sports figure should be held up as anything more than just that. Football players are not 'role models' or 'heroes', they're people with lucrative if difficult to get jobs. That's it. As long as he keeps doing his job well, he should keep getting rewarded for doing that job well. It's not his job to be a stellar human being. It is his job to throw touchdown passes and win games. And again, nobody is contending that he isn't good at doing his job.

To put it into perspective, imagine if your workplace had an "employee of the week" contest. Would you find it fair if a stellar employee who consistently improved the bottom line was barred from that contest because he got into a fight at a bar the weekend before?


Anyway, on to the first half of the rant. Personally, I don't mind the $60 yearly game. I really don't. See, the problem with moving to DLC or a bi-annual system or what have you is that not everyone who buys Madden plays it like a hardcore junkie. When I used to play Madden, I didn't buy it every year. I bought every 3 years, just long enough for the graphics to change, or major gameplay improvements to happen. If they moved to some kind of DLC thing, I'd have to buy a 10 year old game and then download 10 years worth of DLC just to get the latest version. And that's not cool. It's great for the guy who already HAS Madden, not so great for someone thinking of picking up a new game.

And yes, people exist who do not already own every copy of Madden. Kids get born every year, grow up, turn 11 or 12 and decide they'd like to buy a football game. Do we really want to shut them out of the experience? Maybe someone who didn't previously play them decides today is the day to try it out. Do we want to make him jump through additional hoops?

Nobody forces people to keep buying the same game every year. Most people I know don't do that crap precisely because it's unnecessarily expensive. It's just not in EA's best interest to lose sales of more casual players to cater to a hardcore fan demographic who will buy the game anyway, regardless of what happens.

 

[hightide]

I have a video that accurately sums up my opinion of Michael Vick created by the good people at DarkMatch. specifically why we should be able to give someone like michael vick a bit more forgiveness than chris brown. the vick stuff is about 10 min into the video so you can skip there if you like, but the whole thing's worth watching IMHO. Please tell me what you think of the arguments made. WARNING VIDEO CONTAINS FOUL LANGUAGE!!!

http://darkmatch.blip.tv/file/4960060/

I don't really get how people seem to think that michael vick should continue to suffer despite seeming genuinely repentant? Why isn't prison time enough? I think bob is being WAY to sensitive here.

Thanks, that was a cool little video about how he has changed his life around. But, I'm still miffed about how people love talking about culture and how important it is and when someone grows up in a culture that has dog fighting, gets desensitized to it, gets punished, and repents how the culture aspect gets mysteriously overlooked. Plus, when it comes down to it, I'd rather cheer for a guy like Vick how has paid for being a bad person and repented than a person like Santonio Homes who has 10 kids and doesn't see what is wrong with it.

 

[Woodsey]

Prison is the punishment. The ENTIRE purpose of it is to set an amount of time that - if we're going to be crude about it - evens out the balance sheets. Designating the punishment is the job of a judge, not any of us.

That would be true, but this forum is full of Gen Y. And if there's anything that Gen Y wants to be it's to be judge, jury and most especially executioner.

What's Gen Y?

 

[Gigano]

Probably not the best of public faces to choose for your family friendly game...

If the consumers-in-spe - those who care enough about the game to vote on it - want him though, then I guess he's on it. Nothing illegal or harmful about putting him on there, and if that's what the niche you sell to want, then I don't really care about what their subjective tastes might be. To me idolizing the guy seems in poor taste, but I've never bought a Madden game in my life, so who am I to decide on what's cool with those who enjoy it?

Live and let live, and if Madden fans want some specific footballer on the cover of a football game - ethically challenged as he may be - then there's no real harm in that. Certainly nothing to get ban-happy (or in casu vote-riggy) about.

Organized animal cruelty is just incredibly lowly behaviour; so on reflection though, perhaps choosing this guy as a representative for what could easily be seen a soulless cash-in scheme might not be all that inappropriate anyway. Kind of sends out the right "we don't really care as long as there's money involved"-vibe.

 

[Boxinatorizore]

I guess you have a valid point. I was kinda like, eh, throughout it, but then how you put it at the end made sense to me.

 

[AngelSword]

While I agree that he shouldn't be on the cover, my belief that Vick should not be on the cover is more about the fact that he already had his place on it.

 

[thisbymaster]

So what would he have to do to gain redemption in your eyes bob?

 

[eNTi]

So what would he have to do to gain redemption in your eyes bob?

probably die, if i read between his lines correctly. or maybe become the 2nd manning, but then again, i think dying would be more humane.

 

[CaptQuakers]

Whats the point of having a justice system If people aren't allowed to get along after they have served their time ?

Also Vick killed animals yes he did it inhumanly but most eat meat how different Is that. And they didn't even have any proof Vick killed any of them they only know it happened at his house.

Also you do know If the government catch the kind of animals in question they will kill they without a seconds thought ?

The dogs are breed to fight just like some are for racing and some hunting. They will kill smaller dogs even If they aren't brought up too that is what they do.

Vick made a mistake. Who here hasn't ?

 

[Pyode]

Wow, cry me a river.

There's something of a sliding scale here. He spent 2 years in jail and went bankrupt, There's a spot between "Ok to kill and torture animals" and "die in a fire". What he did was not okay, he killed dogs for fun and profit. But to say that is irredeemable, is, in my eyes a hypocritical and hideous thing to claim.

What we have here is (vile) mobs screaming for blood because their "Oh so refined sensibilities were offended." Moviebob handwaved that he has a hunting & fishing license but, no wait, go back to that. It completely fucking invalidates his point! What's the huge difference here between deer and dogs? Between Fish and Dogs? How about between the dogs and the animals that became the meat you said you eat? Or whose skin became the leather on your belt? You go "yeah yeah" with that ridiculous voice of utter contempt you have, but in the end you're nothing but a big, whiny, intellectually dishonest hypocrite. And that goes for all the other hypocrites supporting you in this thread, wishing death and pain on another human being because he fucking killed some dogs.

Dog fighting is NOT the same as hunting deer. Not even remotely close.

It's not like you can just stick two dogs in a ring ans say "Fight!" and they attack each other. Dog have been bread for thousands of years to be non-violent. In order to get dogs to fight like that you have to mentally break them. You have to beat and torture them from the day they are born until they are basically mentally insane.

If you don't see a difference between that and going out into the woods and shooting an adult deer, then I just can't help you.

At MOST Vick knew about it and didnt call the cops...

That doesn't make it any better at all. Knowing about it and not only not reporting it, but continuing to financially support it is still just as bad.

 

[John Funk]

As someone who has played both rugby and futbol americano, I can say with certainty that football is waaaaaaaaay rougher than rugby is. Rugby tackles are like, "grab your jersey and pull you down." Football tackles are "250-lb slab of muscle slamming into your spine at full speed."

Here's a tip: Football players wear those pads because they need them, and that makes the sport rougher.



The more you know! (Twinkle)

Grab your Jeresy and pull you down? Tell that to the All Blacks. Hell, tell that to any professional Rugby players =P

I've seen the All Blacks play (well, I've seen footage). It's still not NEARLY as rough as the NFL. What do you think it says that the players still get badly injured even *with* those pads?

It's psychological. When you're not wearing pads, you hit (and try to get hit) in ways that aren't quite so damaging to the human body, because you know that running your head into someone when you're both sprinting is going to friggin' HURT. When you have armor on, you can hit harder.

Not saying that rugby isn't a rough sport (it is) or that it isn't a great sport (it's that, too). But dismissing American Football just on the basis of "they wear pads" is tremendously silly.

 

[Joepow]

I am pleasantly surprised at the amount of people here that believe in rehabilitation. We are the vast majority, but we are more that I though we would be.

Forgiving someone, or believing they have redeemed themselves, does not mean forestalling the logical consequences of those actions. It is not wrong, unforgiving, or uncharitable to vehemently want to deny Vick this spot. He paid his legal debt to society, and that's fine. It means he cannot be punished again, but refusing to honor something is not the same as punishment.

If someone robs me and gunpoint, goes to jail, gets out, and then comes to see me for forgiveness, I might choose to use that opportunity to forgive them. I'd let them know that I didn't like what they did, and I'd stop wishing horrible things to happen to them. I'd let them know I really do hope they go on to make better choices. But forgiving them doesn't mean I have to like them, be "buddies," or ever even speak to them ever again. I certainly don't have to make them best man at my wedding, or keep a picture of them on my desk.

Denying him the chance to compete for Madden's cover is punishment.

 

[ascaryguy89]

Turbine does more than a yearly roster update, personally I find it to be bullshit that you would say that out of ignorance.
The dog fighting took place on property Vick purchased for a family member. There is no evidence, that I have seen, that Vick participated in the torturing. In fact saying that he did, as was done, especially considering he was not convicted of dogfighting, could be considered slander.

 

[Dimensional Vortex]

Huh, I'm surprised how many people agree with Bob about this and his other "PC gaming is dying opinion."
To start, just because they bring out a new American football game each year or so does not make it a massive rip off. They frequently do that with games, and as long as it makes people happy it shouldn't matter. I mean take a look at the final fantasy franchise, they are up to 14 or more since I last checked and I have heard mostly great opinions and recommendations about it. Pokemon is another example, the story lines are roughly similar in each game, there is one diabolical group that has its eyes set on doing something heinous. You battle this evil group, you win, through this process you usually get a way to get to a legendary Pokemon, you then fight the toughest trainers to win the game. But people still praise and adore Pokemon when they pretty much just add new animals from game to game.

One part of the show really got to me though, "Michael Vick should be singled out and denied" This is extremely asinine (from my opinion), if that were to happen, you would just destroy Michael's career as a footballer and his humanity. It is on the blood spattered pages of history where we learn that humans cant all single someone out peacefully, there would be violence and riots over something frivolous like being on the front cover of a game. If he is STILL in the running to be on the front cover then clearly people like him as an athlete, and for a game about football, it should have a strong and good football player on it.

America is a republic, a democratic country, so shouldn't everyone at least be given their fair chance in a competition or vote? Yes this guy did go to jail for doing something awful, there is no denying that, but he did do his time and he should be given a fair right. If you disagree with the severity of his sentence then that is something to be taken up with the courts, not something to be taken up with him and the community after he has served his alloted time. When people wont stop letting the past of others go, they end up demonizing them and ruining their lives. Its probably not just one man (Bob) singling out Michael Vick here, there are probably thousands of people who still remember him, and many of those people would treat him like shit if they met him.

Another few lines from the review that got to me

"I know he served his time, I don't care. I know he's trying to turn his life around, not good enough. I'm also aware that he had a really good season, I really don't care and I'm aware that some people don't think its such a big deal because its just a dog."
I will agree with Bob that the murder of animals is a big deal, and should be taken a bit more seriously. But the other factors of the aforementioned lines are quite disturbing to say the least, if the man is trying to turn his life around how is that not good enough? Yes I understand he murdered dogs 4 years ago, but if he has changed or is trying to change he should be given some credit. At least he didn't just go back to what he was doing because he didn't give a shit. If a man used to be a problem to his family due to alcohol, and he went to a rehabilitation clinic and he had stopped drinking alcohol for 4 years you would stop giving him trouble for it, wouldn't you?
Another part of the aforementioned quotes was "I'm also aware that he had a really good season, I really don't care." This is still a massive factor as to why he is being put on the front cover of a game. If he was a great guy in real life, but a bad footballer who the hell would put him on the front cover of the game? The contest for the front cover should be based upon athletic abilities and prowess, not personality and history.

Look, if kids pick up madden 2012 and see Michael Vick's face on there (which will probably be masked by a helmet anyways) they are not going to say "Lets go and murder some helpless animals!" They are probably not going to say anything regarding Michael Vick, but if they did I would imagine it would be along the lines of "Lets go outside and throw the football around, maybe we can be great footballers." People on the escapist continuously say that video games don't provoke violence and anger in children, or give them bad ideas, so how does Michael Vick's face being on a game cover affect anyone negatively?

Although I respect Bob's opinion on many things I think this and the last time he has talked about gaming I have been disappointed. I am not going to go into my opinions about the whole "PC gaming is dead" scenario, but I would like to say that perhaps he should review and talk about aspects of movies. Because he is good at reviewing movies and he is good at picking up on key aspects in films. I don't think he is particularly good at making his case for things regarding games like "PC gaming is dead" (which it hardly is) and "Michael Vick shouldn't be on a sports game because of a troubled past."

Other than that, it was an enjoyable video and it didn't sink into "BECAUSE HE IS A BAD MAN!" too many times which is a problem in most rants and complaints.

 

[The Wykydtron]

See the Extra Credits episode on EA advertising. You know, for a while, I considered EA the lesser of the two evils when compared to the necromancers known as Activision and their president Bobby Kotick, AKA former president of 4Kids Entertainment of which as an anime fan, there's no redemption.

A while ago, I'd say EA was on its way to redeeming itself: from teaming up with Valve and leaving them be with full creative control, to giving the go-ahead to titles that wouldn't have a chance in hell like Tim Schafer's Brutal Legend, to actually creating incredibly new IP's such as Mirror's Edge. Then '09 came around, and the atrocity known as the Dante's Inferno advertising campaign reared its ugly head. Then came Project Ten Dollar. Then came the utterly superfluous purchase of Playfish...

In short, Activision fucks their games while EA doesn't give a fuck about their games. EA's just doing it for the cheap shock value for a quick buck, and it's working.

As for the Madden thing? Yeah, them getting the exclusive NFL license just rubs salt in the woods, doesn't it Bob? I know it does for me.

Wait, Bobby Kotick was president of 4Kids? Thank you for giving me a new reason to hate that asshole... The old reasons were getting a bit stale

OT: I don't think i have enough info on this guy to form a valid opinion... But if he has done his time it doesn't seem particularly fair or just to punish him further, that's just my probably really uninformed opinion

 

[Belano]

Everyone who agrees with Bob and still eats meat is a hypocrite. The animals killed in the slaughterhouses suffer just as much as the dogs victims of these dog fighting gigs.