The Big Picture: Mutants and Masses

370999

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Gxas said:
Ahh, see, I've not finished the first game, so I have no idea what is going on with the third in terms of ending or changes based on decisions. I also never, ever pay attention to interviews or anything like that, so I have no leg there. It just seems that, to me, people were expecting a butterfly effect-type ending in the sense that not doing a side-mission - let's say, for my sake, mining all of the gas nodes in the first game - would have a huge impact on the game.

From an outside viewpoint, as I see myself, the whole complaint with everything is utterly juvenile and ridiculous.

Especially the FTC/BBB complaint. Ads lie all the time, if you really look into them. Blatantly. Look at the AXE marketing. I wash with that shit every day (I really do like the smell of it) and I've never, ever had a girl all over me like the bottle/packaging/commercials/magazine ads say I will. If I were to complain, the FTC/BBB would just laugh and laugh and laugh.
Well you see the way ME is presented you get to make choices which appear to have major impact on the world. Do you give this base of advanced technology into the hands of a terrorist who wants to use it for humanities benefit, do you help cure a disease that sterilizes a species, do you save the last remaining individual of another species that previously waged a huge galactic war, etc. This doesn't really affect the final battle, only doing so in the form of a numerical score that determines wherever you get either the choice of option C, option C and B or, the best case, option A B and C. And all of the options are baffling and seem (at least to me) to actually be against the theme of game.

Now being honest with you I'm not sure if they should change the ending. I tend to think that Bioware should, the current ending is awful and they can do such much better but I don't know. It's just I hate Bob completely misrepresenting one side of the argument. He is ignorant on this subject and then him getting paid to talk about it taste sour, especially when he does it in such a dogmatic fashion. Remember how he had a defensive tone in his transformers 3 review where he immediately started by vetoing accusations of fanboy bias? He doing the same now

I think the thing with the endings, was again, people were worried that we could end up in the present scenario and Bioware said we wouldn't. And while it would of been very difficult I tend to believe they could of presented an ending which did the series justice. Again not everybody would be happy with it but certainly much more then we have now. So unlike say Lynx, Bioware was presenting something which could actually happen, and then it didn't happen.
 

Findlebob

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Ive said this before but im going to resay it. Have you actually seen the ending's of ME 3?
 

orangeapples

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Bob is not saying the Mass Effect ending was good or that the fans are wrong in being upset. What he is saying is that there is a line between criticizing a property and being a whiny little brat throwing a temper tantrum and fans tend to cross that line way too easily.

anyone remember Bob and his Green Lantern review? Bob was livid when it came to that movie. He hated everything about that movie, and told people not to touch the movie. But there is one thing he did not claim: ownership over the property and for them to "fix" it. He was mad, vented and lamented the movie, but he did not cross the line into throwing a tantrum to get the movie he "wanted"
 

The Material Sheep

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Draech said:
th3dark3rsh33p said:
Draech said:
dragonswarrior said:
AGH YOU DON'T GET IT YOU DON'T GET IT YOU DON'T GET IT!!!!!

*Breathes* Okay.

How. How Bob. How do fans with INTELLIGENT RESEARCHED CRITIQUES of a game asking for a Goddamn intelligent ending from a group that has previously managed to provide them with such PREVENT ARTISTS FROM TAKING RISKS?!

They don't!! How does that, I don't even... URHGU It makes no goddamn sense!!

You did make some good points though...

But seriously? Telling someone that what they do was shit doesn't stop risk taking. Asking them to change said shit into something better doesn't stop risk taking. Because people will always make risky shit. And they will always make risky quality. That will NEVER change. How does someone asking for something to be quality change that?

Which brings us to the biggest difference between TMNT and ME3. TMNT is trying to make a story with changes to the original. No one has ANY idea whether it will be good quality or not.

Mass Effect 3 had a shitty ending.

That is the difference between them.

Captcha: Face The Music

Damn straight!!
You have creative rights over some1 else product or not?
Pick one.

If not then you get to critique the ending, not change it.

If you have you get to change it. How can you misunderstand that?
I don't think we're saying we have the right to force them to change it. Just that we want them to with our criticism. There's a difference.
So you dont have the right to force them.... you just want the right to do so.....

The whole "Retake Mass Effect" idea never happened right?

I mean for someone to go "Retake mass effect" he must believe it was his and it was taken from him. Or am I missing something?
No... lol... I'm not saying I can force them, I'm saying I will not buy more of their products unless they do change the ending. They have the right to make a shitty ending and keep it that way, just like they have the right to go bankrupt if people don't like it.

I can voice my opinion and say I think you should fix it and if they do I'll be there to support them in it. That's what I'm saying and I didn't really like the retake mass effect movement and I don't agree with the dumb false advirtising claim. To be entirely honest I don't think the majority of the disgruntled fans do. Just easier for you to pin us all in that group you can smugly look down on though doesn it?
 

IamLEAM1983

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Aug 22, 2011
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Indeed, this is why we can't have nice things.

Okay, so BioWare dropped the ball. We're still alive, aren't we? Oh, and Bay directing a TMNT movie? I'm likely to think it sucks and to be at least somewhat disappointed, but will it be the worst outrage ever faced by fandom? Eh, no. We'll find another reason to rage and froth two weeks later.

At this point, I'm honestly tired of hearing the same arguments from both sides of the story. One side claims false advertising and borderline spiteful decisions from BioWare's part, the other tries to make it clear that nobody in BW's screenwriting department owes us anything.

Nobody can expect to win this debate, because it's turned into a matter of how you perceive the game developer as a whole. Either they're spiteful, lying sacks of shit who ruined YOUR fun for no discernible reason, or they're human and fallible entities that haven't owed anything to their fans in any shape or form. Insert arguments regarding what "authorial control" means for the fans or players in equal proportions for both sides, and you've got a pretty good picture of what the current debacle looks like.

I'm liable to be accused of parroting the same old stuff over and over or of resorting to ad hominem tactics, but I maintain that a good few amongst ourselves should do well to step back, take a couple weeks to perform a bit of introspection, and figure out how they're acting like mature adults. I know, it's plainly idealistic of me to expect that, but I think a few would come to unpleasant realizations.

Mass Effect 3's endings sucked. Am I dead because of it? Is anyone dead because of it? Has Western culture collapsed under the weight of the sheer disappointment? Were all other creative mediums rendered null and void? No.

If anything, all we've managed to do is set back our cause a couple years. I've received a few attempts at refutation for landing this argument before, but I'll maintain that this is painting the whole of gamers out to be immature and entitled.

Thank you Bob, for essentially realizing this. Not that my post or your video will ever matter to the "Retake Mass Effect" crowd, because the notions of "promised" content and failed expectations will continue to act as their safety net.
 

Fr]anc[is

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"I'm not going to go on about the whole Mass Effect thing"

*Proceeds to smugly jack off in the audience's face*

I already watched his game overthinker, so I'm just gonna copypaste my response to that:

"I don't even know what the ending is and I've never finished a mass effect game"

Oh wow, why are we getting upset over what he says again?

Edit: Strawman arguments everywhere. Thinks "it's the storyteller's story" makes rocks fall everyone dies a not shitty ending. Can't differentiate between an ending tailor made for everyone and one that is simply consistent with the rest of the game in both gameplay and lore. Yea he doesn't know what he's talking about.
 

blackdwarf

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do we have the right to demand a rework of a ending?
no.
do we have to rights to complain on a ending?
yes.

although i can really understand people who are mad that actions in previous games have not a effect what so ever to the actual end of the third game, even though that was promised. we still can't demand that bioware remakes a ending of something they created. the only thing we can do is saying what we think from it, give criticism and hope that they listen. and if that doesn't work, we should buying their games.
 

Synek

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Completly missing the point of the fan rage against Bioware.
The only thing artsy about Bioware these days are how the can make gigantic plot holes and retcon things without most people caring.
 

Uber Waddles

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370999 said:
So once again Bob doesn't understand the difference between games and movies. And misrepresents the retake ME movement. Standard stuff from him them.
What didn't he get? The two had an over-lapping, he picked up with it and ran with it. You seem bothered because you were probably a person who participated in the retake ME event, and don't want to admit that someone just called you out.

And what mistake did he make about the retake ME movement? That it was a charity movement that used the anger of ME fans as leverage to gain funds for Childs Play? Not an integral part of his argument. His argument was based on the reaction, not how that reaction was funneled into something good. While it does undermine his argument of "we need to be fans and adults" a tad bit, its still an overly immature reaction to have in the first place. If you didn't like the ending, you express it, and either hope the game developer pulls a Fallout 3 and retcons the original ending with a DLC, or you use your purchasing power to say "I will not support this franchises future endeavors", and abstain from purchasing DLC or other Mass Effect games/appearal.

Movies and Video Games are very different, but share some very clear elements, and he's right. Video Games real difference is not THE MESSAGE, but how THE MESSAGE is delivered, and what emotions we feel along the way.

Fans QQing about Mass Effects Ending and the tidbits of Prothean backstory that make no impact over the game but require a $10 purchase is just getting old. And its the same with people who QQ about movies. I'm very suprised he had nothing to say about The Hunger Games, which according to some people was akin to genocide.

You spent your money: you are not entitled to demanding a different ending, or that the origin story be fixed, or that "xyz is bad they should do a reboot". You may certainly critique the work, but demanding a new ending post launch? Really?

And yeah, the people who are whining about the Turtles movie, despite the fact that they havent seen it yet. They fall is the same boat. Its pathetic, its immature. Get on with your live. If its bad, don't partake in it. You do know you have options, right? Money talks.
 

Jesus Phish

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Baby Tea said:
Frank_Sinatra_ said:
Remember: BioWare has stated that their fans are equal creators in the story along with their actual writing staff.
Fans are equal creators in the same way that readers of 'choose your own adventure' books are equal authors.
Read: They aren't.

"But they SAID we are!"
Yeah! And the cover of my 'Choose your own Adventure' book says I pick where the character goes!

But even IF every choice I make in the book ends up at the same, unsatisfying conclusion on the final page, the bottom line is: That's how it was written. I might not like it, and I might even feel cheated, but that's the creator's choice. I can not buy from them again, I can critique it like crazy, I can even ***** about it on the internet, but to DEMAND that a creator, that an artist CHANGE THEIR WORK because I am unsatisfied is the height of self-entitled bullshit.

No, it's not false advertising.
No, they don't owe you a thing.

Geez, I'd be happy with another bullshit 'boycott' rather than this garbage.
People need to grow up. Seriously.
I've not finished ME3 yet, but obviously by visiting any internet page I've come across headlines of rage from fans at the ending. I don't know what the ending is, I'll hopefully find out when I finish it.

Your argument is the same as my own though. I even thought of the adventure book comparison too, you pick your own path of A B and C but you're always going to end up at D, maybe E and F if the writer could get it in, but overall your experience of going through the book (or mass effect) is different than someone else who owns it.

Nice to see some people still understand basic concepts.
 

Stalydan

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Gxas said:
So are we complaining about some ending cutscene then?

Like I said above, I have no idea what happens, as I've not even finished the first game. But, if it's an epilogue cutscene that people are complaining about, then this is even more ridiculous to me than it was before.
More that the ending makes no sense and doesn't really give any closure. It's more "Ooooo look at the pretty colours!" than showing any actual consequences of your actions. I think the decisions are tough in themselves (and I would have liked the option to refuse all the other three) but afterwards, nothing really different happens which is really sad.
 

Klitch

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Wow, Bob entirely misses the point with the whole ME3 ending thing. I don't think I've ever completely disagreed with him before. It truly is shocking that he's taken a stance on such a major issue while being, at least in part, ignorant about it.

He seems to suggest that people filed the FTC complaint (a move I don't agree with but see the justification for) because they didn't like the ending rather than their actual reasoning: Bioware LIED in their marketing. The FTC is responsible for punishing false advertising and Bioware CLEARLY had false advertising. If a food product claims to be calorie-free in their advertising and then is found to be full of calories, nobody would bat an eye at an FTC complaint. Because we're gamers complaining about a game, however, we're just entitled children.

Yes the ending sucked (probably the worst I've ever played), but the game as a whole was brilliant. At least for me, the outrage comes for the way that Bioware was willing to tell us whatever we wanted to hear prior to release only to renege on every promise and expect it all just to blow over because because people like Bob here say "it's art" or "you're just a consumer" so you have no right to complain. And if this was all designed as part of some plan to sell the "real" ending as DLC, as rumored, that's not just false advertising, that's fraud.

At least we have Shamus Young to rely on...
 

ytook

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Mar 27, 2012
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I felt the need to create an account to comment on this. As an artist myself I'm becoming increasingly disturbed how much the 'artistic integrity' argument is being used and seen as valid with regards to Mass Effect 3's ending. The problem is that Bioware promised many things when it came to the series' ending and those promises were broken or directly contradicted, the idea that a corporation, let alone an artist, can so blatantly falsely advertise a product and then when this false advertising is called out people will defend it with claims of artistic integrity is simply worrying, artists do not exist in a vacuum, we are not Olympians occasionally throwing down inspiration to the unwashed masses.

The problem with Mass Effect 3's ending is that it is not a matter of opinion over which the fans are upset, its that the ending is objectively flawed. Even if you like the way the ending works from a conceptual point of view, that doesn't excuse the massive plot holes, logical flaws and tonal inconsistencies of the ending. It is not only self contradictory in innumerable ways but it also invalidates everything that happened in the previous two games and relies on logic so hideously circular and flawed that even those not 'invested' in the series can see it, all you need to do in one case is to look at a moment a few minuets prior to contradict what has to be accepted without question for the ending to work. These are not 'nerdy' 'length of a star destroyer' plot holes, these are massive inconsistencies that in any other medium would be seen as a breech by the creators of their own artistic integrity.

The fact of the matter is that when producing commissioned work in which an artist has promised a theme or consistent tone, deviating from that is the worst possible thing that artist could do, as they have broken their own artistic integrity by diverting from the tone or theme of the piece. In that case it is well within the rights of the commissioner to ask for his/her money back or to demand the piece be reworked, any artist who takes offense to this or sees this as an attack on their artistic integrity is going to be without a living. I feel that allot of this comes more from the video game communities' terrible fear of games being seen as anything other than perfect works of art, the moment that is called into doubt, however reasonably, people feel as if the artistic foundations of gaming are being attacked and will defend them irrationally at all costs. The adding to or changing of an ending is far from without precedent after all, just look at Fallout 3 with Broken steel, or Alan Wake with the Signal and the Lighthouse, or even Arthur Conan Doyle and the original Sherlock Holmes.

At least I know now that if ever someone reasonably objects to a piece of work they have commissioned from me the gaming media will be more than willing to rush to my defense, without looking at the commissioners arguments at all, if I say he is threatening my precious artistic integrity.
 

Eamar

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Draech said:
I mean for someone to go "Retake mass effect" he must believe it was his and it was taken from him. Or am I missing something?
You're missing the point(as so many people are) that the word "retake" really shouldn't be taken so literally. It's poking fun at the "Retake Earth/Take Back Earth" ME3 marketing campaign, that's all.
 

Gxas

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370999 said:
Gxas said:
Ahh, see, I've not finished the first game, so I have no idea what is going on with the third in terms of ending or changes based on decisions. I also never, ever pay attention to interviews or anything like that, so I have no leg there. It just seems that, to me, people were expecting a butterfly effect-type ending in the sense that not doing a side-mission - let's say, for my sake, mining all of the gas nodes in the first game - would have a huge impact on the game.

From an outside viewpoint, as I see myself, the whole complaint with everything is utterly juvenile and ridiculous.

Especially the FTC/BBB complaint. Ads lie all the time, if you really look into them. Blatantly. Look at the AXE marketing. I wash with that shit every day (I really do like the smell of it) and I've never, ever had a girl all over me like the bottle/packaging/commercials/magazine ads say I will. If I were to complain, the FTC/BBB would just laugh and laugh and laugh.
Well you see the way ME is presented you get to make choices which appear to have major impact on the world. Do you give this base of advanced technology into the hands of a terrorist who wants to use it for humanities benefit, do you help cure a disease that sterilizes a species, do you save the last remaining individual of another species that previously waged a huge galactic war, etc. This doesn't really affect the final battle, only doing so in the form of a numerical score that determines wherever you get either the choice of option C, option C and B or, the best case, option A B and C. And all of the options are baffling and seem (at least to me) to actually be against the theme of game.

Now being honest with you I'm not sure if they should change the ending. I tend to think that Bioware should, the current ending is awful and they can do such much better but I don't know. It's just I hate Bob completely misrepresenting one side of the argument. He is ignorant on this subject and then him getting paid to talk about it taste sour, especially when he does it in such a dogmatic fashion. Remember how he had a defensive tone in his transformers 3 review where he immediately started by vetoing accusations of fanboy bias? He doing the same now

I think the thing with the endings, was again, people were worried that we could end up in the present scenario and Bioware said we wouldn't. And while it would of been very difficult I tend to believe they could of presented an ending which did the series justice. Again not everybody would be happy with it but certainly much more then we have now. So unlike say Lynx, Bioware was presenting something which could actually happen, and then it didn't happen.
Ahhh, it is all much clearer to me now. Thank you.

Now, I still disagree with the rewritten ending since, you realize, I'm sure, that no matter what they do, what you have now will always, always be the true ending. Just like declaring the Star Wars prequels non-canon will mean nothing because everyone will always know that they were canon when they were created.

You can write whatever ending you want to, but the fact will always stand that this is the ending Bioware wrote and released. It will always be the true ending, and you will always know that deep down inside.

In my eyes, it would be better to write this one off as a bad ending and not buy anything Bioware ever again in protest, than to demand a change that will only make you slightly happy.

But, again, that is just my viewpoint on it.
 

Halo Fanboy

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Baby Tea said:
I can not buy from them again, I can critique it like crazy, I can even ***** about it on the internet, but to DEMAND that a creator, that an artist CHANGE THEIR WORK because I am unsatisfied is the height of self-entitled bullshit.
What's the difference between demanding for something and asking for it?
 

Erlenmeyer Flask

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Gxas said:
Would you be able to give an example of how something that has been coded (read: prewritten) can not be an ABC affair?
At some level, every bit of "story" needs to be prewritten. This is true. On the other hand... would you say that the entire Mass Effect series can be boiled down to an ABC affair? No, of course not. Because, while all the possible choices exist in the games before you've even played them, there are so vastly many different combinations of choices that you can make that they simply can't be enumerated. This would be quite reasonable for fans to expect from an ending, as well.

Allow me to provide a more detailed illustration. Let's say that the ending were to provide two options for closure for all eight ME3 crew members, and would allow Shepard to end the game working with any of his crew members, on his own, or dead. That's 16 scenes for the crew members and 10 scenes for Shepard... certainly it's a lot of work, but not beyond Bioware by any means. Now, let's see how many different options that provides... 2^8*10 = 2,560 different endings. What if Bioware were to provide three separate ending options for each crew member? 3^8*10 = 65,610 different endings. Yes, technically you can still enumerate all 65,610 endings (AAAA, AAAB, ..., BAFA, BAFB, ..., DTBL) but absolutely nobody will. Hence: not an ABC affair. I hope this makes it a little bit more clear.