The Big Picture: Mutants and Masses

Malignanttoe

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Aug 25, 2011
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This video was a huge contrast to the article where Bob complains about them changing Spider-Man's costume.
To each their own.
 

Aiddon_v1legacy

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Baby Tea said:
Frank_Sinatra_ said:
Remember: BioWare has stated that their fans are equal creators in the story along with their actual writing staff.
Fans are equal creators in the same way that readers of 'choose your own adventure' books are equal authors.
Read: They aren't.

"But they SAID we are!"
Yeah! And the cover of my 'Choose your own Adventure' book says I pick where the character goes!

But even IF every choice I make in the book ends up at the same, unsatisfying conclusion on the final page, the bottom line is: That's how it was written. I might not like it, and I might even feel cheated, but that's the creator's choice. I can not buy from them again, I can critique it like crazy, I can even ***** about it on the internet, but to DEMAND that a creator, that an artist CHANGE THEIR WORK because I am unsatisfied is the height of self-entitled bullshit.

No, it's not false advertising.
No, they don't owe you a thing.

Geez, I'd be happy with another bullshit 'boycott' rather than this garbage.
People need to grow up. Seriously.
Too true, this has gone too far and it's making gamers out to be the moronic disphits society thinks they are. Whoop-dee-doo, an ending SUCKS, get over it. Spending dozens of hours and probably around $200+ of your income does not make this any more justifiable.
 

370999

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RaikuFA said:
370999 said:
So once again Bob doesn't understand the difference between games and movies. And misrepresents the retake ME movement. Standard stuff from him them.
Considering people are demanding donations back, making death threats and making BBB complaints over it, hes a bit justified. Hes just saying those above three make all fans of something look bad.
That is an extreme fringe and accompanies anything which is emotional. Bob is not a man to chide others for childish outbursts, remember the whole comparison between the Transformers movies and his dogs skeleton being dug out, covered in shit and views of it sold? I do.

Also he mentions the FTC without paying any attention to why that happened. That is not about the ending being bad, that is about Bioware outright lying in interviews. They said it wouldn't be an ABC affair and it was.
 

thethird0611

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Baby Tea said:
Frank_Sinatra_ said:
Remember: BioWare has stated that their fans are equal creators in the story along with their actual writing staff.
Fans are equal creators in the same way that readers of 'choose your own adventure' books are equal authors.
Read: They aren't.

"But they SAID we are!"
Yeah! And the cover of my 'Choose your own Adventure' book says I pick where the character goes!

But even IF every choice I make in the book ends up at the same, unsatisfying conclusion on the final page, the bottom line is: That's how it was written. I might not like it, and I might even feel cheated, but that's the creator's choice. I can not buy from them again, I can critique it like crazy, I can even ***** about it on the internet, but to DEMAND that a creator, that an artist CHANGE THEIR WORK because I am unsatisfied is the height of self-entitled bullshit.

No, it's not false advertising.
No, they don't owe you a thing.

Geez, I'd be happy with another bullshit 'boycott' rather than this garbage.
People need to grow up. Seriously.
Ive gotta say, just today ive seen 3 major push backs against the ME controversy. Dan from Extra creditz post, Movie Bob, and now this. I must say, it seems people are getting tired of hearing so much over reaction and are coming out of the woodworks.

EDIT: Also, ZP posted a good article to.
Also, I notice for every single argument anyone makes, most of what is said is 'Oh, your missing the point'... even though every point is being addressed.
 

The Human Torch

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BlueInkAlchemist said:
I've written about this somewhat myself, and rather than be crass and just post a link or two, I'll condense my thoughts as well as I can for you to peruse. I'm honestly shocked I have to post this again, but it seems that certain people are too busy shouting so the cheap seats can hear instead of listening to how they're sounding or what they're saying. And I'm not talking about fans.

Short version: Mr. Chipman, with all due respect on the matter of games and so-called artistic integrity, I disagree.

Stories have done the "what you choose doesn't matter" ending before, and it's been effective. Brazil and 12 Monkeys spring to mind. But those were films. These are video games. Moreover, the Mass Effect series are video games that emphasize player choice, tolerance, examinations of individuality and life itself. We are told, and invited to exemplify through gameplay, that the choices we make matter, that the direction lives take are important, and that tolerance and peace are not only possible, they are preferable to the alternatives even in our current, modern day lives. A world where different species can form friendships and even romances without any serious social implications and a man can talk about his husband in a very real and moving way is one that is definitely worth dying for.

But the endings of Mass Effect 3 are devoid of meaning. There's no sense of closure, no sense of gravity to our decisions. In the end, we're given to understand that everything we've done doesn't matter. To make everything in all three games come down to a single choice could work, if the aftermath of that choice also reflects choices we've made since the beginning. As it stands, those decisions carry no weight. It's one thing to botch the ending of a video game. It's another to ruin its replay value as a result, and another still to also destroy the replay value of the games that came before it. As a writer and a gamer, I simply cannot grok this decision.

I'm glad you say we're allowed to be upset about this, but wait: we're not allowed to feel we have a say in the process? You propose we are mere consumers and not participants? I disagree with this more than anything else you said. The Internet's instant communication and dissemination of information is accelerating the process as we, as gamers, find and refine our voices. While we'll never be able to excise every single idiot or douchebag from the community, we can minimize their impact while maximizing what matters: our investment in our entertainment. We are not mere consumers - we are patrons, and video games are the art for which we pay.

Changing the ending of a novel or film because fans didn't like it is one thing. Most directors and authors would cite artistic integrity in keeping their tales as they are. There are those who feel game developers should maintain the same standards. That doesn?t seem right to me, though. Gaming is so different from every other art form, so involving of the end user of the content, that sooner or later a different set of standards should be observed. You say that drawing a line between developers and gamers will make people take games more seriously as art; I say such behavior holds the art form back. Yes, our criticisms and opinions should be as constructive as possible in order to be heeded, but consider the possibilities if we can manage that feat. We can stop being seen as mere end-user consumers, and start participating actively in the perpetuation of this art form. To me, that's exciting and powerful.

I mean, we still have people using racist and homophobic language in the community, but hey, baby steps.
Pretty much this. MovieBob just doesn't get it. While I don't agree that we should burn down the Bioware HQ, I do believe that we should take a stance against poor quality. Especially poor quality of the level of the ME 3 ending.

Games are not movies, Bob. And they don't adhere to the same art-rules as movies.
 

HonestJoe

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Feb 16, 2011
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I sort of get where Bob is coming from in his argument; even though it seems kind of hypocritical that he chose to address who he thinks as 'entitled whiners', by getting on the internet and whining about it.

An artistic vision should not be made to fit some generic idea of what the public wants. If it is then it's not really art.

But to say that gamers have no right to demand changes to something they feel invested in is just patently ridiculous.
Every other artistic medium has to endure criticism when the audience does not approve of it's content. Often, this criticism will include demands for changes.
That doesn't mean the demands should necessarily be acted upon, and Bioware is perfectly entitled to simply ignore it all.

I also disagree with Bobs 'Buy a ticket and take your chances' philosophy. There is an article I've read recently that articulates my opinion on the issue far better than I ever could.

I recommend people interested in the topic of 'gamer entitlement' take a look:

http://www.3pipe.net/2012/03/art-and-patronage-in-21st-century-new.html
 

jecht35

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Jul 2, 2011
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Oh no Bob is kicking the hornets nest again lol... Anyways really I'm all for taking chances but if your chances don't translate coherently to the mass, then you can expect backlash. I'm sorry but that ending was a mess. Now I'm not gonna rage on the interweb and rally troops to change the ending(thats what fanboys are for) but I'm gonna put more though into buying more bioware games. And hey if Bioware decides to add on to the ending eventually more power to them.
 

Nikolaz72

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Apr 23, 2009
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Well personally im just tired hearing about Mass Effect 3, although we have gone from 14 threads a day to 7 threads a day to 2 threads a day. It will stop soon enough. Then start up again when the DLC hits.
 

Gxas

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370999 said:
RaikuFA said:
370999 said:
So once again Bob doesn't understand the difference between games and movies. And misrepresents the retake ME movement. Standard stuff from him them.
Considering people are demanding donations back, making death threats and making BBB complaints over it, hes a bit justified. Hes just saying those above three make all fans of something look bad.
That is an extreme fringe and accompanies anything which is emotional. Bob is not a man to chide others for childish outbursts, remember the whole comparison between the Transformers movies and his dogs skeleton being dug out, covered in shit and views of it sold? I do.

Also he mentions the FTC without paying any attention to why that happened. That is not about the ending being bad, that is about Bioware outright lying in interviews. They said it wouldn't be an ABC affair and it was.
Would you be able to give an example of how something that has been coded (read: prewritten) can not be an ABC affair?
 

Jaebird

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Aug 19, 2008
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Geez. Haven't seen this much of an outcry over fictional media since... Lost?
 

Fwee

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Sep 23, 2009
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Just so you know:
Bioware and EA don't owe you a goddamn thing. They came out with a game and you bought it, played it, finished it, and either walked away from it or started crying all over my internet.

Internet quotes and press releases from anyone working on the Mass Effect series are not legally binding.

You should have rented it and saved yourself $55.

Plus you're detracting from real issues in modern entertainment, such as DRM control, DLC flooding, and mandatory Origin signups.
 

Gigano

Whose Eyes Are Those Eyes?
Oct 15, 2009
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First time I'm in full agreement with Bob.

If you crave originality and progress in your games - the evolution the media - then you're going to have to accept a whole lot of experimentation; Which more often than not leads to failure. Though of course material created by people such as Bay, who've time and again proven patently incapable of creating anything that wasn't the cinematic equivalent to Frankensteins Monster, and apparently have no ambition of ever doing better, can be ignored and allowed to fade away.

As for the whole ME3 ending thingie, unless there's some promise involved that's both extremely specific in what objective features it'd contain (...like, "it'll have raccoons fighting each other over a volcano"-level specific), and extremely important for the average person's decision in buying it, then the whole consumer complaint deal is just silly. You can't complain about subjective stuff.
 

Mr. Omega

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Jul 1, 2010
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What people need to get is that he isn't saying you don't have the right to complain. You can complain all you want. But DEMANDING that you get a better ending because it was OWED to you is just plain silly, and the unbelievable extremes the "Retake" movement have gone to to get what they are "owed" are just downright pathetic.

Now becuase this is the internet, and because the "Retake" movement tends to make strawmen of people who disagree with them, I'll spell this out in big letters for them.

[HEADING=2]Nobody is saying you need to like the ending.

Nobody is saying you can't complain.

But there's a line that can be crossed[/HEADING]

And the "Retake" movement crossed it veeeeery quickly.
 

Wicky_42

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I find it amusing that after ragging on Transformers and god knows how many other geek things that were done wrong, Bob defends Bioware when they step wrong. Seems a little ironic/hypocritical. When things are done horribly, are not the fans entitled to complain, or should they just take the blow quietly and be happy for some perverse reason?
 

RaikuFA

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370999 said:
RaikuFA said:
370999 said:
So once again Bob doesn't understand the difference between games and movies. And misrepresents the retake ME movement. Standard stuff from him them.
Considering people are demanding donations back, making death threats and making BBB complaints over it, hes a bit justified. Hes just saying those above three make all fans of something look bad.
That is an extreme fringe and accompanies anything which is emotional. Bob is not a man to chide others for childish outbursts, remember the whole comparison between the Transformers movies and his dogs skeleton being dug out, covered in shit and views of it sold? I do.

Also he mentions the FTC without paying any attention to why that happened. That is not about the ending being bad, that is about Bioware outright lying in interviews. They said it wouldn't be an ABC affair and it was.
OK? And? I was promised a demo of MML3 and the sales of said demo would determine if it was gonna be cancelled or not. It got canceled before the demo was released and I can't make a BBB complaint over it cause it will be thrown out, just like your ME3 complaints.

Jaebird said:
Geez. Haven't seen this much of an outcry over fictional media since... Lost?
And it wasn't even this bad.
 

Frybird

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Jan 7, 2008
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Finished Mass Effect 3 yesterday, didn't like the last 5 minutes, HATED the epilogue (still felt satisfied with the game)...

And while i'd like to agree with Bob, it's a bit of a slippery slope to say that the audience of something doesn't have ANY sense of ownership to a property. After all there are things like Focus Testing and Screening of Movies Pre Release, and why these things don't always work out so well (my least favorite example being the awesome Kaiju "Don't Feed the Plants!" Ending of the Movie Adaption of the Musical Version of Little Shop Of Horrors being scrapped in favor of an almost sarcastically saccharine Happy End), they sometimes DO and even though i don't quite get how the Ending of Mass Effect 3 is a crime to all of humanity, i certainly see how the Ending could be improved upon in a way that doesn't compromise artistic integrity.

There is of course a wrong way to do is (like completely scrap the ending for a conventionall unambigious happy end that leads to the epic multi-species orgy i'm sure many hardcore Bioware Fans secretly wish for), and a right way to do this ("upgrade" whats there by filling out plot holes and give a more definitive end to not only the protagonists story, but those of the others in the ME Universe).

And while certainly an artist of any kind shouldn't be FORCED to alter his work, when he DOES it doesn't make it instantly a betrayal (and if you think so, the ghost of Goethe might want to have a word with you)...even though i'd wish for a mandatory sanity check beforehand (right, Mr. Lucas?)
 

RickBloodaxe

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Mar 1, 2011
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This is a pretty reasoned video. The only thing I have to say in regard to the whole Mass Effect 3 thing is that that 'risk' you talk about is much bigger when it comes to video games. That $60 dollars and 30+ hours of your life is a little more of an investment than a $12 two hour movie. Thus, you're going to get a much more proportional criticism to that investment, though I do concede that that criticism has crossed a few lines.
 

jecht35

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Jul 2, 2011
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Oh and that FTC complaint was just one person, I heard he got flamed on the bioware forums for doing that, lol.
 

370999

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Gxas said:
370999 said:
RaikuFA said:
370999 said:
So once again Bob doesn't understand the difference between games and movies. And misrepresents the retake ME movement. Standard stuff from him them.
Considering people are demanding donations back, making death threats and making BBB complaints over it, hes a bit justified. Hes just saying those above three make all fans of something look bad.
That is an extreme fringe and accompanies anything which is emotional. Bob is not a man to chide others for childish outbursts, remember the whole comparison between the Transformers movies and his dogs skeleton being dug out, covered in shit and views of it sold? I do.

Also he mentions the FTC without paying any attention to why that happened. That is not about the ending being bad, that is about Bioware outright lying in interviews. They said it wouldn't be an ABC affair and it was.
Would you be able to give an example of how something that has been coded (read: prewritten) can not be an ABC affair?
DA:O and New Vegas. Now of course everyone accepts that it is always going be limited to a certain amount of choices, that's inevitable. However there was the expectations, which Bioware egged on, that we would of avoided the ending deciding everything, that it would come from the choices made in the game that culminate in the ending.
 

The Material Sheep

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Nov 12, 2009
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I never was one of the people that felt like I'm entitled to a new ending. I do however think they should change it because what they gave us was rushed, and terribely done. If they know whats good for them they'll fix it and hope to midigate a lot of the disappointment that might impact dlc and future game sales for Bioware. I for one won't be buying anymore Bioware games or dlc unless they some how fix the ending. That's my right as a consumer, and I don't assert anymore rights then that.