Something tells me this video is relevant to this discussion:
[vimeo=36881035]
Interpret it however you want.
[vimeo=36881035]
Interpret it however you want.
Where were you in the three threads I've been stuck arguing in all day? This is the most true thing I've read about the controversy. Thank youBaby Tea said:Fans are equal creators in the same way that readers of 'choose your own adventure' books are equal authors.Frank_Sinatra_ said:Remember: BioWare has stated that their fans are equal creators in the story along with their actual writing staff.
Read: They aren't.
"But they SAID we are!"
Yeah! And the cover of my 'Choose your own Adventure' book says I pick where the character goes!
But even IF every choice I make in the book ends up at the same, unsatisfying conclusion on the final page, the bottom line is: That's how it was written. I might not like it, and I might even feel cheated, but that's the creator's choice. I can not buy from them again, I can critique it like crazy, I can even ***** about it on the internet, but to DEMAND that a creator, that an artist CHANGE THEIR WORK because I am unsatisfied is the height of self-entitled bullshit.
No, it's not false advertising.
No, they don't owe you a thing.
Geez, I'd be happy with another bullshit 'boycott' rather than this garbage.
People need to grow up. Seriously.
But you still enjoyed your gourmet meal, right? Doesn't change the fact that you were feasting on gourmet standard grubteebeeohh said:...still the ending sucks a lot and is kinda like like being given a single french fry to finish your gourmet meal
Well, when I see "ABC affair", I assume that we mean A-Z, double letters, triple letters, and greek letters. Not literally A ending, B ending, C ending. Though, I'm starting to notice that more and more people are only showing 3 actual endings to the game. In which case, yeah, maybe there is some slight justification to the complaints. However, if you refer to my previous post, I still stand by that notion and always will.Erlenmeyer Flask said:At some level, every bit of "story" needs to be prewritten. This is true. On the other hand... would you say that the entire Mass Effect series can be boiled down to an ABC affair? No, of course not. Because, while all the possible choices exist in the games before you've even played them, there are so vastly many different combinations of choices that you can make that they simply can't be enumerated. This would be quite reasonable for fans to expect from an ending, as well.Gxas said:Would you be able to give an example of how something that has been coded (read: prewritten) can not be an ABC affair?
Allow me to provide a more detailed illustration. Let's say that the ending provides two options for closure for all eight ME3 crew members, and allows Shepard to end the game working with any of his crew members, on his own, or dead. That's 16 scenes for the crew members and 10 scenes for Shepard... certainly it's a lot of work, but not beyond Bioware by any means. Now, let's see how many different options that provides... 2^8*10 = 2,560 different endings. What if Bioware were to provide three separate ending options for each crew member? 3^8*10 = 65,610 different endings. Yes, technically you can still enumerate all 65,610 endings (AAAA, AAAB, ..., BAFA, BAFB, ..., DTBL) but absolutely nobody will. Hence: not an ABC affair. I hope this makes it a little bit more clear.
Not really though.Stalydan said:If this is true then this really defeats your argument. There is an amount of artistic license that creators should have over their games but when you promise one thing and then totally go against it and say that your fans are part of the creative process, that's too far.
It's more the whole last section of the game. It's not too hard to read up on why people are angry about it. Forcing a choice where none should be needed, or forcing a 'wrong' choice. The feeling that you could have run through the game doing the bare minimum and get the same ending as someone who 100% the whole game, a Deus Ex Machina turning up so we can have an 'Adam and Eve' ending, a hackneyed cliché that I doubt many people could seriously say is 'art' anyway.Gxas said:So are we complaining about some ending cutscene then?
Like I said above, I have no idea what happens, as I've not even finished the first game. But, if it's an epilogue cutscene that people are complaining about, then this is even more ridiculous to me than it was before.
I'm just aggravated that he had to bring it up for no reason what-so-ever. Its not even that these connected signifgantly, theres a different between a change in cannon and a change in ending.370999 said:So once again Bob doesn't understand the difference between games and movies. And misrepresents the retake ME movement. Standard stuff from him them.
Who smells conspiracy?crimson sickle2 said:Bob, you got a little offtrack at the end; now I think this whole video was just an introduction into a rant about the retake movement.
For all the whining that this movement has caused, it is bringing to attention some consumer rights that we kinda just forgot about. I'm sure a savvy lawyer could find a way to turn this ending dabocal into a actual case against EA and Bioware if they wanted too.RaikuFA said:OK? And? I was promised a demo of MML3 and the sales of said demo would determine if it was gonna be cancelled or not. It got canceled before the demo was released and I can't make a BBB complaint over it cause it will be thrown out, just like your ME3 complaints.
And it wasn't even this bad.Jaebird said:Geez. Haven't seen this much of an outcry over fictional media since... Lost?
Could we please, for whoever sake that you believe in as a mystical person, not use this argument ever again, please? There is a concrete difference between a brick wall and a conclusion to a walk. The point of Retake Mass Effect is to show that fans will willingly pay for a DLC that changes the ending to something that would bring more closure, NOT BECAUSE SOMETHING GOT CHANGED IN DEVELOPMENT! The script, if anything, should have been the first thing done. You don't shoot a movie without a script because its dependent on it, just like you don't write a book without words. With a RPG the script should be written out, can changes be made to the script, oh yeah. But a good ending will always give you a sense of closure to most of what loose strings were left, this didn't. You spend fifty or a hundred hours constantly doing side-quests and being a signature boyscout only to have your scout master forget who you are and think your stealing the uniform, forcing you three choices.MonkeyPunch said:Surprise, lots oh ME3 whining again.
I'm also noticing a trend where they are using the fact that Bioware said that something was going to be one way during development and on release it turned out not to be.
O.M.G! First game ever to not release in the exact same state it was during production (for what ever reason)!!11one111!!!
The creative rights bit was silly. That's trying to simplify an incredibly complicated subject. Tuning something (to use the tired but true platitude) that is many shades of grey into a black and white yes or no kind of thing.Draech said:You have creative rights over some1 else product or not?dragonswarrior said:AGH YOU DON'T GET IT YOU DON'T GET IT YOU DON'T GET IT!!!!!
*Breathes* Okay.
How. How Bob. How do fans with INTELLIGENT RESEARCHED CRITIQUES of a game asking for a Goddamn intelligent ending from a group that has previously managed to provide them with such PREVENT ARTISTS FROM TAKING RISKS?!
They don't!! How does that, I don't even... URHGU It makes no goddamn sense!!
You did make some good points though...
But seriously? Telling someone that what they do was shit doesn't stop risk taking. Asking them to change said shit into something better doesn't stop risk taking. Because people will always make risky shit. And they will always make risky quality. That will NEVER change. How does someone asking for something to be quality change that?
Which brings us to the biggest difference between TMNT and ME3. TMNT is trying to make a story with changes to the original. No one has ANY idea whether it will be good quality or not.
Mass Effect 3 had a shitty ending.
That is the difference between them.
Captcha: Face The Music
Damn straight!!
Pick one.
If not then you get to critique the ending, not change it.
If you have you get to change it. How can you misunderstand that?
There is line very large line between players and developers! There two are not even close to the same! They create the stories and we play them! The stories are not ours they are theirs. Developers do not need or should share any power with the players. They gives us the choices and we play them out. This entire ME3 ending stupidy proves that we shouldn't have any say in anything. Retake ME! It is not ours! If fans controlled what was created the industry would grind to a halt and we would all still be playing D&D clones.As gaming continues to evolve and the line between developer and player begins to blur, it becomes more and more apparent that the old ways of judging those who create the stories we enjoy no longer apply to games. We are just as responsible for the stories being told through games as the developers are, and while games empower and encourage us to make decisions to alter the outcome, we must realize that our power in that regard is shared with the developers, and is not exclusively our own. By the same token, the onus of integrity does not solely fall on the developers. We, as participants in the story, must also hold ourselves to a standard, in providing constructive criticism, frank examination, and willingness to adapt or compromise when it comes to the narratives we come to love. Only by doing this can we blur that line between gamers and developers. Only by showing this desire to address these stories as living things in which we have a say and for the benefit of which we will work with their original creators will gamers stop coming across as spoiled brats and start to be considered a vital part of the game creation process.