The Big Picture: Not Okay

[Elijah Newton]

Bob! BOB! BOBBB!

*wild applause*

 

[Lilani]

I'm mad that we posted this at the same time. xD

And yes, I do defend the use of slurs depending on the environment. Just look at my last post.

If that's the kind of behavior you will stand up for, then please, don't try to act like you're above Aris or have better standards than he does. Because you don't. Embrace what you do for what it is--bullying. Bullies dehumanize and explicitly try to hurt people for fun, and that's what slurs are. And if that's what you want the fighting community to consist of, then don't insult the rest of us by sugar coating it or acting like it's not as bad as we think. Because it is as bad as we think, and you will deserve every bit of criticism you get.

I'm gonna assume you didn't read my post like I said. *shrug* Your loss. Stay mad.

Then tell me what parts I missed. I got "Aris is a piece of shit" and that you agree with Bob, but somehow that leaves room for defending slurs which doesn't make sense in my book.

I replied to someone else at the same time you replied to me.

Perfect example: I play fighters will almost exclusively African-American (like all fighters, mirite? xD), so we throw around the "dreaded N-word" pretty casually. Occasionally some white kids game with us, and we don't get mad when they use the word, since we're in a relaxed environment where all kinds of trash talk is accepted. That, and, that word doesn't bother us at all.

And before you get your gender-neutral undergarments in a tizzy, I'm black.

Well of course, I thought it sort of went without being said that if nobody minds the words that are being thrown around, then there is no problem. I mean why would there? I was specifically talking about when words are being used that are hurtful AND unwelcome. Sorry about the confusion.

 

[MovieBob]

3) Connecting one to two via three, I would argue that you can push a liberal agenda, try to brow-beat the intolerant, publicly shame them, but this will only cause more reaction online, a greater show of what you hate. This is because the mockers can be anonymous and get away with it. If you argue against sexism, there will still be sexism, as inexcusable as it is.

Here's the thing: The point of shame, as a weapon of social-change, is not about changing people's minds by making them ashamed of themselves - most people, by the time they reach adulthood, don't fundamentally change. The point is to render their viewpoint so shameful in the eyes of the culture at large that it is progressively less likely to take hold in others as time goes on.

To put it another way; you don't change the world by making the man ashamed of himself, you change the world by making the son ashamed of the father.

 

[Akio91]

Well of course, I thought it sort of went without being said that if nobody minds the words that are being thrown around, then there is no problem. I mean why would there? I was specifically talking about when words are being used that are hurtful AND unwelcome. Sorry about the confusion.

Okay. That's why I kept stressing the part about Aris. He need his ass whopped in the worst way, and he's ruining casual trash talk for everyone.

 

[ThrobbingEgo]

3) Connecting one to two via three, I would argue that you can push a liberal agenda, try to brow-beat the intolerant, publicly shame them, but this will only cause more reaction online, a greater show of what you hate. This is because the mockers can be anonymous and get away with it. If you argue against sexism, there will still be sexism, as inexcusable as it is.

Here's the thing: The point of shame, as a weapon of social-change, is not about changing people's minds by making them ashamed of themselves - most people, by the time they reach adulthood, don't fundamentally change. The point is to render their viewpoint so shameful in the eyes of the culture at large that it is progressively less likely to take hold in others as time goes on.

To put it another way; you don't change the world by making the man ashamed of himself, you change the world by making the son ashamed of the father.

That's a myth. People are capable of learning and self-improvement well into old age. It's true that their brains are a little less plastic, but that potential never completely goes away. It doesn't mean older people are a lost cause.

Edit: Oh, hey, Bob. I just wanted to add that your videos are the reason I still visit The Escapist. Stay classy.

 

[MonkeyPunch]

You also haven't heard his more immediate justification for what he did.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdYEYzv2E5A

It's sad that I feel I have to say this but: Your freedom ends where it infringes on someone else's.

 

[Something Amyss]

Well, depending upon your sexual proclivities it might be considered a utopian future. Especially if there is an ample supply of spandex.

Touché, good sir.

Copenhagen. But it goes for any western city with a +million inhabitants.

You still haven't explained your method of time travel nor your century of origin.

It's not a doctrine or cult mentality, just a bunch of bad advice and typical of a home dictated by a dominant mother or society built on "gender equality". In my case it was the latter.

Oh, I see. This isn't some dystopian future, it's some sort of broad brushing based on your own experiences, which may or may not be hyperbolic. I stand corrected. I assumed you came from some place of validity. Clearly, I was in error.

Did you enjoy knocking down that strawman? It seemed therapeutic.

Thing is though, no one is denying that there's a problem with sexism or discrimination. The problem is that the focus is on women and their problems only. Sadly, it's probably the only way for most to take it seriously.

Thing is, no-one is denying that men ever get discriminated against, but that doesn't mean that it's as prevalent or that pointing out rampant sexism swinging the other way is somehow ignoring that it exists.

 

[drivel]

I am confused. You said we're winning. What are we winning? How, and by who's standards. It sure seems like for every Jack Thompson slapdown, there's another 10 popup to carry on the anti-gamer cause. Then there was sopa, and acta, and pipa, and etc. Who's winning what now? And then there's the media where games caused the death's in Norway. yeah.

Uhhh, we won this thing not-so-casually referred to as a Landmark Supreme Court case where video games were guaranteed the same First Amendemnt rights as all other forms of expressive media. Did you miss that? It wasn't even a split decision - it was 7-2 in favor.

http://ti.me/wDn1uK

That's WINNING.

 

[walrusaurus]

I'd say the reason that we don't talk about it has more to do with the fact that the majority of the people in our community that spew such bullshit are the adolescent or pre-adolescent gamers than anything else. There isn't really any constructive/productive way to talk to these kids about it.

 

[MCGT]

The sentiments expressed in this video are all very admirable and I agree that sexism is a bad thing, but the hypocrisy present in it coming from someone who constantly objectifies women in his movie reviews really angers me.

Seriously, if you make big 'ooh aren't I progressive' statements like this it's probably best not to continually reduce actresses to a pair of boobs or a pretty face.

 

[userwhoquitthesite]

I agree, rock on bob! Seriously! I can't believe there are people trying to justify this... I haven't seen the clip in quesiton myself, but what the hell is this guy trying to justify?

Love the ending statement there too bob! This is why I watch your show.

Don't congratulate him for calling out a guy if you don't know what he did. It makes you sound like a giant idiot.

I have typed and retyped a post for this thread several times, but i seem to be incapable of doing so without resorting to angry gibbering, so I'll instead say that i mostly agree with bob for once, and leave it at that

 

[Vault Citizen]

This is probably the most pissed off I've ever heard movie bob sound; I don't blame him, either, as I've said the exact same thing on more than one occasion over the last few years. I remember calling some friends out on throwing the word rape around more casually than I was comfortable with and they looked at me like I grew a second head.

Seriously, nerd culture based sexism is something I would seriously like to see go away. Forever.

using the word rape to mean lose doesn't equate to sexism

Even it that is true its rude and goes beyond what could be called acceptable competitive behaviour.

 

[John Funk]

This is probably the most pissed off I've ever heard movie bob sound; I don't blame him, either, as I've said the exact same thing on more than one occasion over the last few years. I remember calling some friends out on throwing the word rape around more casually than I was comfortable with and they looked at me like I grew a second head.

Seriously, nerd culture based sexism is something I would seriously like to see go away. Forever.

using the word rape to mean lose doesn't equate to sexism

No, but it does devalue the concept of rape as one of the most horrifying things a person can do to another human being, and certainly doesn't help deal with widespread rape culture.

Rape Culture 101. [http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2009/10/rape-culture-101.html] Educate yourself.

 

[John Funk]

Like any of that actually needed to be addressed.

1 asshole =/= even a small portion of people who play games. His opinion of gaming-culture, which is a nonsense phrase to begin with, means exactly the same. The only reason that douche got any attention is because he was on some shite TV show.

People like you, responding to this type of behaviour as if it's actually some sort of real issue and not a few lone nuts being retardly backwards are what give the stereotype of 'sexist gamers' credence. Because it gives the impression it's a serious enough issue for it to be addressed.

News flash......... it's not.

And BTW, 'rape' is not a sexist phrase. What is sexist is your assumption that that phrase is in someway, only demeaning to women. You didn't overtly state that, but I don't really see any reason for you to have brought it up if that wasn't your point.

"I'm raping you!" When used in the context of a competition is in no way sexually explicit. It simply means one side/person is dominating the other side/person. If you read any more into it than that, you've got hangups.

It is trivializing one of the most traumatic experiences a person can foist on another human being to a mere "LOLOL I'M WINNING." If you don't see any problem in that, then you're ignorant as hell.

 

[Mae Aloril]

This was the best episode in a while. Pretty much everything that needs saying about nerd culture is here. Just replace 'women' with any other subject matter and its pretty much 100% interchangeable.

Although, in defense of the 'Why are we even talking about this?' argument, I don't think that necessarily means people don't want to admit that these problems exist, more just 'Why is it my responsibility to tell these assholes to grow up? Why can't I just be free to not be associated with them?'

With due respect, if you don't take responsibility, and I don't take responsibility, then no one will, and they will never change.

 

[Okysho]

I agree, rock on bob! Seriously! I can't believe there are people trying to justify this... I haven't seen the clip in quesiton myself, but what the hell is this guy trying to justify?

Love the ending statement there too bob! This is why I watch your show.

Don't congratulate him for calling out a guy if you don't know what he did. It makes you sound like a giant idiot.

I have typed and retyped a post for this thread several times, but i seem to be incapable of doing so without resorting to angry gibbering, so I'll instead say that i mostly agree with bob for once, and leave it at that

Don't assume I don't know what happened because I made a forum post congratulating a guy for a bringing attention to a much needed issue within the gaming culture. It makes you sound like a giant idiot.

I haven't seen the clip, that doesn't mean I don't know what happened. The escapist isn't the only one who reports these things.

 

[SonOfVoorhees]

Arseholes are arseholes. Sexism and racsism is everywhere. Whether they play games, politics, in the police army or whom ever. The fact the person is a geek shouldnt matter.

 

[KarlMonster]

Hear! Hear! Well spoken Bruce!

er... I mean Bob.

And thank you to Windu23 for linking an interesting article on the topic.

I feel the need to point to this article [http://shoryuken.com/2011/12/12/guest-editorial-momentum-matters-a-historical-perspective-on-the-fgc-and-esports-communities-2/] again to better illustrate that point, because I'm just not as well versed in the finer details as others.

Edit: having read the article, I can't help thinking that the author is being disingenuous. He makes several statements comparing the respective developers and communities. Without actual statements from the Publishers (I should have liked to see any numbers showing that Blizzard's involvement in SC tournaments was lucrative) or serious assessments of their relationship with the communities, they sound like willful assertions. He uses the word 'insular' when I rather suspect that 'bunkered' would be a better descriptor. 'Insular' has neutral connotations, whereas someone built the bunker.

Jimquisition also engages in this form of journalism. Am I not supposed to question the author? Did C'thulu establish his eternal dominance when I was not paying attention?
(All hail the Dark Lord!)

 

[Flight]

I think some folks in this thread aren't fully aware of what Aris did. This went beyond trash talking, it went beyond friendly competition. He held a camera on a girl and sexually harassed her, and when she told him to stop, he said she had to put up with it because he was her coach and it was in the rules that she had to do anything he told her to.

Trash talking your buddies is great, it's part of the fun, and nobody is suggesting it should go away. But making someone feel worthless and afraid, because you find it fun? There's no defending that.

I was about to type in my response, but you put it way better than I could. Thank you.

OT, but gah, I accidentally hit the report button on you when I was checking out your badges. I'm so sorry! D:

 

[GraveeKing]

I been around the internet a more than decent amount of childhood destroying time.
I haven't really seen much of ANY of these things, I mean occasionally yeah, you get some crack-pot going nuts, but no more than... well any other community that I see.

I agree it's not OK, but trying to pick out the idiots of the world is damn difficult, and they're idiots - how do you expect to fix them? Hate them to death? Sadly - YES - they do have the free-speech to say such things, and just you watch them abuse that right for all they're worth. Sexual harassment like this I can understand does indeed cause harm.
But if it's just casual discussion they mention it - where discussion is calm, there's very little you can do. If it's their view it's their view - it probably got so extreme for some really stupid reason, but it's still there. If we can fix a few of the bad-eggs and hit them with a newspaper until they're better then fine, but it's not like we can really fix up every guy can we?

Still - I approve of this. Hate is always a bad thing.