I love you, Movie Bob! I have not really commented on anything in a while but this forced me to come back and say what a great job you do in general, even when I disagree with your premise. (in this case, I do not)
The Big Picture: Not Okay
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Jesus, I had heard a little about this, but wasn't aware of the whole kerfuffle. Bakhtanian sounds like he's trying to be the representative for /v/ - his justification for his own misogynist behaviour is laughably horrendous. It makes me wonder if the problem of sexism isn't circulated and even exacerbated by peer pressure in a heavily male-dominated culture. We need more people who are willing to stand up and challenge the attitude, even if everyone else in the room is an Aris clone.
Great video, Bob - needed saying.
Great video, Bob - needed saying.
Rea: You know what it is, to be honest with you? We?re getting older. Do you really want to keep hanging around with a bunch of [guys in their] early 20s who don?t know how to treat one another with respect? That?s what it is.
Bakhtanians: Alright, man. The thing is...if you don?t like the scene, how it is right now, it just seems like you?re trying to create...turn it into something that it?s not, and it?s never going to be. You know what I mean?
Rea: That?s really unfortunate [inaudible]...the way it is right now, they want to enjoy fighting games, but they?re so incredibly turned off by [the language].
Bakhtanians: This doesn?t involve me, Jared, I don?t know if you can hear me--this is Aris. This doesn?t really involve me, but if you don?t like onions, you get your sandwich without onions, man. I mean, this is the fighting game community.
Rea: Can I get my Street Fighter without sexual harassment?
Bakhtanians: You can?t. You can?t because they?re one and the same thing. This is a community that?s, you know, 15 or 20 years old, and the sexual harassment is part of a culture, and if you remove that from the fighting game community, it?s not the fighting game community--it?s StarCraft. There?s nothing wrong with StarCraft if you enjoy it, and there?s nothing wrong with anything about eSports, but why would you want just one flavor of ice cream, you know? There?s eSports for people who like eSports, and there?s fighting games for people who like spicy food and like to have fun. There?s no reason to turn them into the same thing, you know?
You can?t go to the NBA and say ?hey, I like basketball, but I don?t want them to play with a basketball, I want them to play with a football.? It just doesn?t...it doesn?t make sense to have that attitude, you know? These things are established for years. That would be like someone from the fighting game community going over to StarCraft and trying to say ?hey, StarCraft, you guys are too soft, let?s start making sexual harassment jokes to each other on StarCraft.? That?s not cool, people wouldn?t like that. StarCraft isn?t like that. People would get defensive, and that?s what you?re trying to do the fighting game community, and it?s not right. It?s ethically wrong.
I know that you?re thinking ?what do you know about ethics? You say racial stuff and sexist stuff.? But those are jokes and if you were really a member of the fighting game community, you would know that. You would know that these are jokes.
Rea: So, ensuring that we alienate any and all female viewers...that?s the ethical thing to do?
Bakhtanians: Well, you know, there are layers here, if you think about this. There are layers of ethics. There are people who are racist and commit hate crimes, right? And then there are people who are racist but they have tons of friends of all colors and they have deep love for those friends. Do you think those people are one and the same? Absolutely not.
Bakhtanians: Alright, man. The thing is...if you don?t like the scene, how it is right now, it just seems like you?re trying to create...turn it into something that it?s not, and it?s never going to be. You know what I mean?
Rea: That?s really unfortunate [inaudible]...the way it is right now, they want to enjoy fighting games, but they?re so incredibly turned off by [the language].
Bakhtanians: This doesn?t involve me, Jared, I don?t know if you can hear me--this is Aris. This doesn?t really involve me, but if you don?t like onions, you get your sandwich without onions, man. I mean, this is the fighting game community.
Rea: Can I get my Street Fighter without sexual harassment?
Bakhtanians: You can?t. You can?t because they?re one and the same thing. This is a community that?s, you know, 15 or 20 years old, and the sexual harassment is part of a culture, and if you remove that from the fighting game community, it?s not the fighting game community--it?s StarCraft. There?s nothing wrong with StarCraft if you enjoy it, and there?s nothing wrong with anything about eSports, but why would you want just one flavor of ice cream, you know? There?s eSports for people who like eSports, and there?s fighting games for people who like spicy food and like to have fun. There?s no reason to turn them into the same thing, you know?
You can?t go to the NBA and say ?hey, I like basketball, but I don?t want them to play with a basketball, I want them to play with a football.? It just doesn?t...it doesn?t make sense to have that attitude, you know? These things are established for years. That would be like someone from the fighting game community going over to StarCraft and trying to say ?hey, StarCraft, you guys are too soft, let?s start making sexual harassment jokes to each other on StarCraft.? That?s not cool, people wouldn?t like that. StarCraft isn?t like that. People would get defensive, and that?s what you?re trying to do the fighting game community, and it?s not right. It?s ethically wrong.
I know that you?re thinking ?what do you know about ethics? You say racial stuff and sexist stuff.? But those are jokes and if you were really a member of the fighting game community, you would know that. You would know that these are jokes.
Rea: So, ensuring that we alienate any and all female viewers...that?s the ethical thing to do?
Bakhtanians: Well, you know, there are layers here, if you think about this. There are layers of ethics. There are people who are racist and commit hate crimes, right? And then there are people who are racist but they have tons of friends of all colors and they have deep love for those friends. Do you think those people are one and the same? Absolutely not.
I understand that I said some controversial statements on the Cross Assault show, and a lot of people are deeply offended with what was said. When I made these statements, I was very heated as I felt that the culture of a scene I have been a part of for over 15 years was being threatened. I unfortunately used extreme examples in the heat of the moment and feel that my statements don?t actually communicate how I feel. This is similar to what people say when they get into an argument with their girlfriend, and they say things that they deeply regret. I sincerely apologise if I have offended anyone. My statements do not reflect those of Capcom or myself. The last thing I want to do is get them in trouble for giving me and the fighting game community the opportunity to have an amazing show like this.
What I was trying to communicate is that mild hostility has always been a defining characteristic of the fighting game scene. Back when arcades were more prevalent, people didn?t like newcomers, and players needed to fight and pay their dues to get respect. The debate I was in was with a person who supported professional leagues, who have intent to censor the community to make it more accessible. I think the sink or swim mentality is something that defined our culture, and if that succeeds it removes something which has been important to help create some of the best fighting game players of our time. I was unfortunately unable to make this point clearly. Again, I am deeply sorry for offending anyone. This was a combination of the people taking things out of context and my own inability in the heat of the moment to defend myself and the community I have loved for over 15 years.
What I was trying to communicate is that mild hostility has always been a defining characteristic of the fighting game scene. Back when arcades were more prevalent, people didn?t like newcomers, and players needed to fight and pay their dues to get respect. The debate I was in was with a person who supported professional leagues, who have intent to censor the community to make it more accessible. I think the sink or swim mentality is something that defined our culture, and if that succeeds it removes something which has been important to help create some of the best fighting game players of our time. I was unfortunately unable to make this point clearly. Again, I am deeply sorry for offending anyone. This was a combination of the people taking things out of context and my own inability in the heat of the moment to defend myself and the community I have loved for over 15 years.
I find it funny how they used Starcraft as a bad thing. What's bad about it? From most competitions I've seen they tend to get along pretty well, even when they cheese the hell out of each other.
It's a good thing these guys put themselves out though. That way you can smack some of that BS down, which they need to do some more.
Great video Bob, I was really quite annoyed when I heard this story the other week, and I completely agree with your points here. Especially about free speech. I've never understood why people think the right to free speech means they're allowed to be an arsehole to people without consequence.
Getting "ragged on" in general happens all the time in the FGC. The issue is that these guys grew up in the arcade, where they were surrounded by peers and able to say these things to each other with little more repercussion than getting beat in the next match.PsychedelicDiamond said:
UltraDavid, someone who could be considered a leader in the fighting game community, did a fantastic write-up that touched on this topic on shoryuken.com. True, the main topic is fighting games as esports, but the argument for why this sort of thing happens in the fighting game community is pretty well explained. It's LONG AS HELL and can be found here [http://shoryuken.com/2011/12/12/guest-editorial-momentum-matters-a-historical-perspective-on-the-fgc-and-esports-communities-2/].
I've met Aris. He's a decent guy. I've also been to fighting game tournaments before they got as big as they are now. Racism, sexism, homophobia, and general dickish behaviour does go on. To be blunt, it is currently part of the culture, because of where it originated. But there are those who recognize that this needs to change, and the changes are happening. The FGC has some growing to do, and not all of it is going to be painless.
Overall, I like your points. There are certainly some points I dont see eye to eye on, mostly because realistically they won't change or aren't something that bad in the first place For example: you will not stop people from saying 'you got raped' in games. It sucks that it wont happen, but its just like people saying 'thats gay' for something stupid. And, for both cases, I dont see it as a swipe against rape victims or homosexuals, its just a word that has a stigma attached to it (which is unfortunate for 'gay', but not everyone is tolerant) thats used in conjunction with something not so pleasant. Is it bad? Yes. Does it tear us down as a culture? Yes. Will it change? Unfortunately, no.
Part of the reason things will never change is because as a community, we are fractured. We all belong to the same community, but a large portion (mostly on the younger side, but there are quite a few naive older people) don't act like they are part of the community. They don't care about the community as a whole, standards we'd like to uphold, or making the medium better. They're just there cause its the cool thing to do, explosions are cool, or for sheer, mind melting entertainment. Thats never going away either.
I was kind of disappointed in this episode though. When I read that you would be taking on the sexism in nerd culture, I thought this would be more indepth. Maybe even delve into why, as a culture, Gamers and the Internet demean women to the point of objects because we fear their presence in a place we dominate. Or perhaps go into other issues. I just thought it would be deeper, and it really enticed me to see what you would have to say on this.
It was a great episode, don't get me wrong. I just wish it had more meat on it. I LOVE your funny/odd episodes Bob, but I like these serious ones just as much. I'm probably not the only one either, just keep that in mind.
Part of the reason things will never change is because as a community, we are fractured. We all belong to the same community, but a large portion (mostly on the younger side, but there are quite a few naive older people) don't act like they are part of the community. They don't care about the community as a whole, standards we'd like to uphold, or making the medium better. They're just there cause its the cool thing to do, explosions are cool, or for sheer, mind melting entertainment. Thats never going away either.
I was kind of disappointed in this episode though. When I read that you would be taking on the sexism in nerd culture, I thought this would be more indepth. Maybe even delve into why, as a culture, Gamers and the Internet demean women to the point of objects because we fear their presence in a place we dominate. Or perhaps go into other issues. I just thought it would be deeper, and it really enticed me to see what you would have to say on this.
It was a great episode, don't get me wrong. I just wish it had more meat on it. I LOVE your funny/odd episodes Bob, but I like these serious ones just as much. I'm probably not the only one either, just keep that in mind.
I don't dig out this clip often, but when I do...
[youtube=whytAReStUQ&feature=related
...it's usually warranted.
OT: I agree on the position that "rape" should never be used as a synonym for "failure", but I feel it's pretty well-ingrained in not only the annoying 13-year old population, but also in older-age gamers as well. I don't know if we'll ever get rid of it.
[youtube=whytAReStUQ&feature=related
...it's usually warranted.
OT: I agree on the position that "rape" should never be used as a synonym for "failure", but I feel it's pretty well-ingrained in not only the annoying 13-year old population, but also in older-age gamers as well. I don't know if we'll ever get rid of it.
It's because the Starcraft community and FGC are diametrically opposed. When people talk about making fighting games into an esport, they always say things like "why can't you be more like those Starcraft guys" and that makes the members of the FGC feel marginalized. They fought (no pun) to get where they are with, really, little to no outside help. The FGC is really homegrown, and when you have that much devoted into something, people coming in to mess with that feels deeply wrong, and they get very territorial.Qitz said:
I feel the need to point to this article [http://shoryuken.com/2011/12/12/guest-editorial-momentum-matters-a-historical-perspective-on-the-fgc-and-esports-communities-2/] again to better illustrate that point, because I'm just not as well versed in the finer details as others.
Thank you for that rant Bob!
I can't say how disgusted I felt when I first heard this bit of news; as someone who likes fighting games I really don't want to be associated with this kind of BS.
I can't say how disgusted I felt when I first heard this bit of news; as someone who likes fighting games I really don't want to be associated with this kind of BS.
I agree. Sexism or racism isn't defined by how you think so much as by your actions. I think if you make sexist jokes which cause women discomfort and grief then you are, by definition, sexist. Whether you think of yourself as sexist or not is a different story. Mediocre bad guys almost never think of themselves as bad guys.
On a different note: Its interesting to see how this matches up with your political correctness video. Its not that they are incompatible by any means. Its just that watching those two videos gives a sense of the sometimes narrow region in between being an ass and being politically incorrect.
On a different note: Its interesting to see how this matches up with your political correctness video. Its not that they are incompatible by any means. Its just that watching those two videos gives a sense of the sometimes narrow region in between being an ass and being politically incorrect.
Somehow, I think this attitude inside of the community is what's causing so many games to include unnecessary cheesecake fan service, unfortunate subtexts and crude stereotypes.
I presume that if those attitudes didn't exist, I wouldn't be as nervous and anxious over a game like Extreme Beach Volleyball.
I presume that if those attitudes didn't exist, I wouldn't be as nervous and anxious over a game like Extreme Beach Volleyball.
Thank you, Bob.
I once scolded a person in my guild for exactly what you mentioned. And I was really glad my guild joined me in not letting any excuse for such behavior fly.
I hope this attitude you so eloquently presented spreads ALL over the internet.
I once scolded a person in my guild for exactly what you mentioned. And I was really glad my guild joined me in not letting any excuse for such behavior fly.
I hope this attitude you so eloquently presented spreads ALL over the internet.
But entry into the video gaming community isnt defined as playing video games. There are plenty of people who play video games, everything from solitaire to angry birds to halo, which don't view themselves as gamers. Being a part of the community means more than you like to play games.wizzy555 said:
I cannot say that I've been watching over FGC for a long time (to tell the truth, I started watching matches only when SF4 came out), but I must say, that IMHO there are 2 groups with MAJOR differences between them: Professionals and, well, lets, call us usuals.
Usuals are guys who either play for fun or play to win via shameless tactics (projectile spamming is only one example) and the main threat comes from latter, because they take this stuff to seriously and publicly rage and swear and call those who lost to them newbs and those who won (insert swearing here). There are guys and girls like this in every gaming community, where there is at least some form of multiplayer.
Professionals, on the other hand, are Guys (yes, from capital) like Combofiend, Gootecks and Ultra David, who know how to play the game and play at competitive scene. They tend to act mature towards their game. I cannot say that they do not rage, but if they do, their rage is not directed towards person, but rather is just burst of emotions. Aris is but exeption from the rule and even so, inbefore this incident, he always acted like offensive, but charming guy. It is yet for me to see the footage that is the subject of this discussion, though.
What I mean to say is that I refuse to name ragers as part of community. Do not make your assumptions based on their behavior. They do not represent what it truly is: the community of guys that really like their game and greet every newcomer with open arms.
I am not saying that my words are ultimate truth, but that is my opinion.
Usuals are guys who either play for fun or play to win via shameless tactics (projectile spamming is only one example) and the main threat comes from latter, because they take this stuff to seriously and publicly rage and swear and call those who lost to them newbs and those who won (insert swearing here). There are guys and girls like this in every gaming community, where there is at least some form of multiplayer.
Professionals, on the other hand, are Guys (yes, from capital) like Combofiend, Gootecks and Ultra David, who know how to play the game and play at competitive scene. They tend to act mature towards their game. I cannot say that they do not rage, but if they do, their rage is not directed towards person, but rather is just burst of emotions. Aris is but exeption from the rule and even so, inbefore this incident, he always acted like offensive, but charming guy. It is yet for me to see the footage that is the subject of this discussion, though.
What I mean to say is that I refuse to name ragers as part of community. Do not make your assumptions based on their behavior. They do not represent what it truly is: the community of guys that really like their game and greet every newcomer with open arms.
I am not saying that my words are ultimate truth, but that is my opinion.
Too bad it's not a high traffic topic because it's a damn good topic.
Really no need for the geek culture to be only white middle class and overly straight. Girls can bring a lot to geek culture so it's rather shameful when part of geek culture wants to be some version of the He Man Woman Hater's Club from the Three Stooges or the Little Rascals.
I've got no problem with saying a female gamer kicked my ass at a game because some of the girls playing games these days have some amazing skills at those games. Doesn't make me any less of a man to say the more skilled player beat me fair and square, even if that player doesn't pee standing up.
Really no need for the geek culture to be only white middle class and overly straight. Girls can bring a lot to geek culture so it's rather shameful when part of geek culture wants to be some version of the He Man Woman Hater's Club from the Three Stooges or the Little Rascals.
I've got no problem with saying a female gamer kicked my ass at a game because some of the girls playing games these days have some amazing skills at those games. Doesn't make me any less of a man to say the more skilled player beat me fair and square, even if that player doesn't pee standing up.
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I disagree with the idea that this coach using sexual harassment as a way of "motivating" his player has to anything to do with the gaming culture. Did this happen at a gaming event? Sure, but it also happens every day in EVERY SPORT.
Back when I did waterpolo in high school I had a coach like this my freshman year whose "motivational" skills went as far as calling everyone on the team "pansy ass faggots" and throwing chairs in the pool from frustration if our team ever got scored on. I've heard similar stories from friends I've had who played other sports, and this was especially prevalent in our wrestling coach.
So yeah, this isn't a problem endemic to gaming or the "fighting game culture" as this asshole claims, it's a part of sports in general and the idea that coaches have put in their heads that they somehow own their players and can treat them like crap.
Back when I did waterpolo in high school I had a coach like this my freshman year whose "motivational" skills went as far as calling everyone on the team "pansy ass faggots" and throwing chairs in the pool from frustration if our team ever got scored on. I've heard similar stories from friends I've had who played other sports, and this was especially prevalent in our wrestling coach.
So yeah, this isn't a problem endemic to gaming or the "fighting game culture" as this asshole claims, it's a part of sports in general and the idea that coaches have put in their heads that they somehow own their players and can treat them like crap.