The Big Picture: Not Okay

[Helmholtz Watson]

First off murder is very common deoending on your location.

Second, we've been over this, I pointed out the wholes in your "privilege comment".

And rape is probably more common in the same location.

And no, you didn't. You think you did because you don't understand what privilege means in this context.

You provided example, and I countered them by bringing up the criminal activity where I live and that gang colors can get innocent people killed.

 

[John Funk]

First off murder is very common deoending on your location.

Second, we've been over this, I pointed out the wholes in your "privilege comment".

And rape is probably more common in the same location.

And no, you didn't. You think you did because you don't understand what privilege means in this context.

You provided example, and I countered them by bringing up the criminal activity where I live and that gang colors can get innocent people killed.

Which... has nothing to do with male privilege at all?

I'm not sure what you're trying to prove, but you're doing a terrible job of it.

 

[dyre]

Err, yes, that's a difference between rape and murder, but it's not a relevant difference. We're talking about murder and using rape in a game supporting more murder or rape in society. Remember, my argument is that (in the context of gaming) any moron understands that "I murdered you" has nothing to do with a desire to murder IRL and in no way supports such action, and said moron also understands that "I raped you" has nothing to do with a desire to rape IRL and in no way supports such action. In fact, I would argue that there is a lot more societal support for murder (especially the positive view of vigilantism) than societal support for rape (there really isn't any societal support for rape). Thus, your counterargument is not relevant to my own.

cobra_ky's argument if unfortunately flawed. "Your expression is hurtful to rape victims without condemning rapists in any real way" indicates that the expression provides negative utility towards rape victims while creating neither a loss nor gain in utility in rapists. It does not follow that a statement that creates neither a loss nor gain in utility suddenly creates a gain in utility in rapists.

As for your question sheet, I don't really have to answer that. I've never used the word "rape" unless I was talking about rape in a real world context, and I've never joked about it. I voluntarily refrain from using the word rape because it is potentially hurtful and offensive to people. However, I still oppose the claim that saying "rape" promotes rape. Saying "rape" in a gaming context is stupid and offensive, but as I've argued earlier, it in no way promotes rape.

Society does support rape in that it's very negative towards rape victims. ("Oh, she was asking for it." "What a lying slut, he'd NEVER do that." "She shouldn't have been drinking, she should have known what would happen," etc.) There is a TON of victim-blaming re: rape. When was the last time you heard anyone said "Oh, s/he deserved it." when they were murdered?

Your statement is coming from a misunderstanding of rape culture. In games, generally "beat" does include some kind of violence. "I murdered you," then, isn't usually too... out of line with what actually happened in the game. (Also, when was the last time you've heard MURDERED!! shouted out in a game of Battlefield or COD or League of Legends? It's always RAPED!!!) "Rape" has nothing to do with... anything. It is entirely dissimilar.

It is not neutral towards rape victims. It is negative towards rape victims, as it is trivializing what happened to them. As something negative towards rape victims, it is consequently positive towards rapists, whether or not it is intended thusly. If something is negative towards rape victims, it promotes rape.

I've never heard ANYONE say "s/he deserved it" about rape, and if I did, I'd punch them in the face. On the other hand, I've heard PLENTY of "s/he deserved it" regarding murder. Just a few weeks back, people on this very site were claiming that high school bullies deserved to be murdered.

To be honest, I haven't played online games much since CS:S because they generally have shitty storylines and even shittier communities. But I would guess that people originally used rape because it symbolizes some kind of domination and humiliation? Dunno. By now though, it's just a replacement for "pwn;" people who say "RAPED!!" don't actually mean they used their generic soldier to rape the other guy's generic soldier. It's sort of like that thing with tea-bagging people in first person shooters; no one actually means they want to put one guys balls into another guy's mouth.

I didn't say it was neutral to rape victims. It probably causes a decrease in happiness in a rape victim due to the reminder of the past event. However, it is not trivializing the crime of rape; it is simply assigning the word a different meaning, one that basically means "to defeat utterly in a video game." I also reject the idea that something negative towards rape victims is automatically promotes rapists. For example, if there was a Congressional bill for creating mandated psychological healthcare for rape victims, and some people voted against it, would you say they supported rapists? No, they just had other agendas that were unfortunately resulted in negative consequences for rape victims, so the most you could say is that they were abandoning rape victims.

Honestly, this "with us or against us" mentality seems like something you'd expect from a 50s anti-communist rally.

 

[Helmholtz Watson]

First off murder is very common deoending on your location.

Second, we've been over this, I pointed out the wholes in your "privilege comment".

And rape is probably more common in the same location.

And no, you didn't. You think you did because you don't understand what privilege means in this context.

You provided example, and I countered them by bringing up the criminal activity where I live and that gang colors can get innocent people killed.

Which... has nothing to do with male privilege at all?

I'm not sure what you're trying to prove, but you're doing a terrible job of it.

..that your comment about male privilege in this context isn't worth much.

Also that I don't support the act of rape nor do I support rapist, when I say a test raped me. Just like I don't support murder or murders when I say that a test murdered me.

 

[cobra_ky]

Exactly. Not supporting rape victims. So you are supporting rapists.

Sorry, just thought that was a pretty weird line. I'd better go support some rape victims...wouldn't want people to think I support rapists.

Well, when we're talking about influencing culture and society and individual people with the things you say, it really is a binary.

Are you:

A.) Tilting society towards indirectly or directly supporting rape victims and potential rape victims?

Or

B.) Tilting society towards indirectly or directly supporting rapists?

I'm not saying you need to immediately go and volunteer at a battered womens' shelter or you're supporting rapists. I'm just saying that the words you use, and the context in which you use them, is part of a larger cultural paradigm.

So if I lose a game and say "geez, you just slaughtered me," is that tilting society towards supporting murderers? Clearly not, because anyone in his/her right mind would realize that there's a difference between using a jargon synonym for "soundly defeated" and encouraging murder. The same goes for "raping" at a game. It clearly does not mean my gaming character physically raped your gaming character, or that such actions should be supported in any way.

That's because we live in a culture where murder is much better understood, and not a culture where murder is excused or explained away and murder victims are blamed for their own murders as a matter of course.

Hell, maybe we should think about the way we trivialize murder with our language too. But rape is the bigger issue, because it's far more deeply ingrained in our culture.

Rape jokes and uses of the word "rape" in gaming are tasteless and stupid, but to say that they support rapists is retarded and shows a serious inability to differentiate connotation with denotation, as well as childish taunts and real world crimes.

Keep in mind, we're talking about rapists here. People who don't understand the denotation of the simple word "no".

 

[cobra_ky]

First off murder is very common deoending on your location.

Second, we've been over this, I pointed out the wholes in your "privilege comment".

And rape is probably more common in the same location.

And no, you didn't. You think you did because you don't understand what privilege means in this context.

You provided example, and I countered them by bringing up the criminal activity where I live and that gang colors can get innocent people killed.

Which... has nothing to do with male privilege at all?

I'm not sure what you're trying to prove, but you're doing a terrible job of it.

The point you're missing is that women also have to worry about muggings and gang violence. But on top of that, they also have this entire complex centered on rape that we as men have no real equivalent to.

 

[dyre]

I've never heard ANYONE say "s/he deserved it" about rape, and if I did, I'd punch them in the face. On the other hand, I've heard PLENTY of "s/he deserved it" regarding murder. Just a few weeks back, people on this very site were claiming that high school bullies deserved to be murdered.

BAM!

And that ladies and gentlemen, underlines the exact hypocrisy with Johns argument.

Case closed, the end.

Can I get a drink to go?

Cpatcha: genghis khan

I find it's relevance disturbing.

No way man, I closed the case; that means I get the drink! *takes drink*

 

[dyre]

I've never heard ANYONE say "s/he deserved it" about rape, and if I did, I'd punch them in the face. On the other hand, I've heard PLENTY of "s/he deserved it" regarding murder. Just a few weeks back, people on this very site were claiming that high school bullies deserved to be murdered.

BAM!

And that ladies and gentlemen, underlines the exact hypocrisy with Johns argument.

Case closed, the end.

Can I get a drink to go?

Cpatcha: genghis khan

I find it's relevance disturbing.

No way man, I closed the case; that means I get the drink! *takes drink*

I want to make a joke about what I may or may not have put into that drink you just took.

But I think that might just go and top John over the edge if he reads it.

I don't want to be partially responsible for an Escapist offices shootings.

Now you see... I'd say that second joke was in far worse taste than the first one. Apparently not though, because they happen less.

LOL

That was brilliant...You win the potentially spiked drink.

 

[dragonburner]

Last week I was disappointed at what I find to be one of your worst videos. However, you came back strong Bob. This was a really great episode. I might be biased because I completely agree with you on the subject, but I really enjoyed the episode and it really made me think about my actions and the actions of others. I try to be good people whenever I can and I'm glad someone with a voice listened to be a big section of the gamer community is using his means to try and convince others to try to be good as well. Thanks for a great episode.

 

[k-ossuburb]

Wait a second, that part about free speech and the first amendment rights is something I've seen described as censorship right here on The Escapist when a troll is arrested here in the U.K.. I distinctly remember that our freedom was brought into question when someone was arrested for insulting a dead girl right on her tribute page, despite the fact that something like this doesn't really carry much of a heavy sentence over here.

Was it entirely justified to arrest him? I can't say, but for the reasons outlined in this video I think it's definitely fair that he was. You have the right to say what you like, but if you use that right to hurt others either directly or indirectly with the intention of hurting them for whatever reason, yeah, you should be punished for it.

 

[cobra_ky]

Exactly. Not supporting rape victims. So you are supporting rapists.

Sorry, just thought that was a pretty weird line. I'd better go support some rape victims...wouldn't want people to think I support rapists.

If you're not against them you're with them!

Here's a question to John 'the authority on sexual violence' Funk.

My friend who was a victim of rape finds me the only person she can talk to about it BECAUSE of my blunt insensitive and fun making attitude. Everyone else goes all serious on her when she needs to talk and she can't deal with it. So she finds talking to me therapeutic.

An example of my assholery would be if we're out having a drink I'll make a comment like 'Oh no one REALLY gets their drink spiked, rapes just a myth.'

Yet because of this when she DOES need a serious conversation she feels she can talk to me.

I make fun of rape but also do my utmost to support a victim of it. Where do I fit into your black and white spectrum of 'People who are rapists' and 'people who would never use the word rape inappropriately'?

You're supporting a rape victim, so you're on the side of supporting rape victims, at least in that regard.

Now if another rape victim, who you did not have a longstanding friendship with, overheard your comments, they would probably take it much more negatively. So that's something you should consider if you're making these comments in a public place.

Really this isn't about controlling what people can or can't say, it's about getting people to think about what their words actually mean and how they affect others. You're clearly well aware that you're helping your friend here, and that is admirable.

I've never heard ANYONE say "s/he deserved it" about rape, and if I did, I'd punch them in the face. On the other hand, I've heard PLENTY of "s/he deserved it" regarding murder. Just a few weeks back, people on this very site were claiming that high school bullies deserved to be murdered.

BAM!

And that ladies and gentlemen, underlines the exact hypocrisy with Johns argument.

Case closed, the end.

Can I get a drink to go?

Cpatcha: genghis khan

I find it's relevance disturbing.

...

Google "She deserved it" and "rape". You'll find results. I'm not going to link them here for the sake of common decency.

You and dyre may also want to stop celebrating your argument from ignorance.

 

[Rabidkitten]

I use rape as a synonym for defeat in a game. I might say, if you go into the Catacombs before the Burg in Dark Souls the skeletons will rape you in the ass with their curved swords. If it's wrong, oh well. Then again I laughed at the Dick Wolves joke.

I tend to be OK with any form of crude marginalizing language as long as it isn't directed at any person in particular. I know Bob disagrees with me on this.

I'd like to note that the word fuck is pretty synonymous with rape. If you say, "You better pay that on time or you're fucked" Since the person at hand doesn't want to be fucked in the sense. It's synonymous with rape, and since we use that terminology constantly on our culture in and our of video games. It becomes apparent that the context and tone of the language is all the matters in my opinion.

 

[Farseer Lolotea]

Yes there is. It's covered under the 1st.

Oh, really? Might want to look up the "fighting words doctrine."

To summarize: purely abusive language is no more "covered under the 1st" than is yelling "fire" in a crowded theater. And for rather similar reasons, no less.

 

[Farseer Lolotea]

We're talking about rape jokes and "I was just raped by [insert inanimate object]". Those are not fighting words.

Got some proof of that, then?

Because unexamined privilege is not a justification. Just sayin'.

 

[Farseer Lolotea]

You're the one that needs to prove they are fighting words.

So...I have to "prove" that there is no value in making light of people's massively traumatic lived experiences (i.e. equating them with getting "pwned" in a video game or failing a test)? Or that trying to justify doing so, in the name of "freedom of speech" or anything else, is a sign of unexamined privilege?

Okay, then, although it sure looks like plenty of people have already done just that.

Some info about fighting words from wikipedia

"The court has continued to uphold the doctrine but also steadily narrowed the grounds on which fighting words are held to apply. In Street v. New York (1969),[2] the court overturned a statute prohibiting flag-burning and verbally abusing the flag, holding that mere offensiveness does not qualify as "fighting words". In similar manner, in Cohen v. California (1971), Cohen's wearing a jacket that said "fuck the draft" did not constitute uttering fighting words since there had been no "personally abusive epithets"; the Court held the phrase to be protected speech. In later decisions?Gooding v. Wilson (1972) and Lewis v. New Orleans (1974)?the Court invalidated convictions of individuals who cursed police officers, finding that the ordinances in question were unconstitutionally overbroad."

Irrelevant.

 

[Farseer Lolotea]

Nice dodge attempt, but no. You have to prove that rape jokes fall under the fighting words exception of the first amendment which is what you claimed.

There is nothing to "dodge" at all. You are trying to defend something that can easily be construed as a form of harassment (also not covered under the First Amendment, for the record), apparently on the grounds that you don't see it as such.

Sorry, but it doesn't work that way.

We do have a right in the U.S. to tell rape jokes, and that right is covered under free speech. That's all I said, and those are facts.

I'd love to see you try to argue that in a court of law, really.

You seem to think "free speech" equals the right to verbally piss on whoever you choose without fear of consequences. You also seem to think that you're not verbally pissing on anyone if you didn't intend to do so.

Please, by all means, enlighten me as to how any of that is not a case of unexamined privilege [http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Privilege] on your part.

 

[Farseer Lolotea]

[snip]

Making rape jokes, bigoted jokes, what-have-you in private? No, there's no law against that.

However (and we'll skip how making, or being amused by, such jokes in the first place reflects on people), you just moved the goalposts by specifying "in private." I'm sure there's a hell of a lot that you can do in private that would be unacceptable otherwise.

In short: if anyone hears it except you and your friends? You've got no business being surprised, much less indignant, if you find out that you've crossed a line and can't just slide out of it by invoking the First Amendment. Actions have consequences.

And "straw man," hell. Regardless of whether or not you said it in so many words, or whether or not you intended to, that is what your argument adds up to.

There's also the fact that after reducing my argument to "you're wrong because of privilege," you're really in no position to cry "straw man." What I said that was you are clearly operating from a position of willfully unexamined privilege, and the matter of responsibility doesn't seem to occur to you.

 

[TRG2000]

You're really missing the big picture here.
You pick on the small gaming nerd community for being sexist, yet again again, but have nothing to say about our society as a whole, which is just as much if not more sexist.
Sexism is not limited to just women.
nether is rape as it's imply in this video, men can and do fall victim to rape, and I'm not just talking about prison rape.
I knew a handicapped guy who was raped by a women, and when he tried to contact the police about it, they told him not to make prank calls and only call them for real problems.

Bob says these small communities act like it's normal and it's just how things are, but this is exactly what society at large does with sexism directed at men.
I'm not going to defend the guy for what he said in that stream, it was clearly disgusting behavior, but my problem is that no one cares when women or society are sexist to men.
It's not right to objectify women as men's sex objects, yet it's okay to paint men as woman's servants and generally worthless in all regards.

But I don't expect any of these videos to ever talk about this, since any guy who brings this up will most likely be hated for it and or viewed as some sort of wussy or pansy crybaby.

I could go on and on about sexism towards men in our society, but I doubt anyone here would care.
I just had to voice my complaint about these videos.

More information on the matter can be found here.
http://www.manwomanmyth.com/
http://www.youtube.com/user/manwomanmyth

 

[Farseer Lolotea]

[snip]

I get what you're saying; sexism certainly cuts both ways.

However, even a relatively quick perusal of that site tells me that it's...well, I'm going to be polite and say "itself missing the point." As an alternative, I'd suggest checking out these guys [http://noseriouslywhatabouttehmenz.wordpress.com/], who argue many of the same points without lashing out.

 

[Phasmal]

I really liked this episode.
I have been wondering lately why we avoid these conversations.

We ARE responsible for ourselves, and if we truly want to paint ourselves as a community for people who may not exactly fit in, marginalising people is just making us as bad as every bully out there.

I'll be glad when me being a girl is not a big deal in this community, when I'm just another player.

We're not there yet but hopefully with more cool male gamers willing to say its not okay (being sexist), we can move forward.