The Big Picture: Off Target - Don't Censor Me Part 2

[InfernalPaladin]

Aussie here, I had pretty much the same sentiments. Target and K-Mart are only reducing their own profits.

What I disagreed with about the whole incident was the fact that a small online petition was able to gain so much traction and actually make the companies change their behaviour. This sets a dangerous precedent for other stores and other media items - especially since it's in Australia, which is already in a precarious position censorship-wise for videogames.

Also, I disliked the general attitude Bob took in his video. The offhand remark where he called people that were concerned about censorship "kids" struck me as a little immature and unprofessional. If this is the way Bob treats all his viewers then I don't think i'm missing much by not watching his shows.

 

[Dizchu]

You can bet that it will. Just read the original ( change.org petition to ban gta V )
(that google search should take you there)

One of the last lines shows that they're using it to set precedent

I looked it up and read the comments.

It actually seems more apparent that the people upset at this are Jack Thompson-esque right-wingers rather than feminists.

The comments indicated a hysterical (our society's crumbling and crime is on the rise) sentiment not uncommon for conservative types.

It's quite depressing actually.

Also, I disliked the general attitude Bob took in his video. The offhand remark where he called people that were concerned about censorship "kids" struck me as a little immature and unprofessional. If this is the way Bob treats all his viewers then I don't think i'm missing much by not watching his shows.

That's Bob Chipman's general shtick to be honest. Now that Jim Sterling's gone I think he's feeling obligated to increase his cynicism and condescension to fill that void. Even when I liked his videos, he never seemed like a guy I'd like to talk to in person.

 

[JMac85]

You can have sex with prostitues and kill them to get their money back.... because? Because this is GTA and that has been in GTA since GTA3, there is no narative or systemic justification, it's just there.... And it's kinda fucked up.

You can have sex with prostitutes because it's an open world sandbox crime simulator. Prostitutes roaming the streets are something that logically makes sense to see in a shady neighborhood. You can also do other inconsequential things to the plot like get drunk and play darts. Killing them to get your money back is an unrelated game mechanic wherein every NPC can be killed and drop money players have found an exploit for that Rockstar didn't feel the need to patch away, like my Elder Scrolls example where you can pickpocket back the money you spend on a skill trainer, or the myriad of other immersion-breaking exploits found in Bethesda games.

 

[UFriday]

I just wanna say...

Whenever I solicited a prostitute to give me a blowjob in GTA5, I let her walk away with her hard earned money without any fuss.

That's all. I have nothing of value to contribute to this utterly valueless debate. I just saw an entertaining opportunity to say those words and still somehow emerge as looking sane and level-headed in my surroundings.

I just wanna say that your profile picture really matches with that comment. Sounds exactly like something Wash would say


With regards to the topic, ech, most people have already said what I would've said.

I would like to mention though that the treatment of hookers in the GTA series just matches up with the viciously brutal treatment it has of damn near everyone, including the main characters (The only vaguely redeemable characters were Nico and CJ, and even they had problems). This is especially ramped up with the characters of GTA 5: I'm kinda having difficulty thinking of any truly decent person in the game.

I wouldn't really say this is a Rockstar problem: I remember being pleasantly charmed when as part of atmospheric dialogue, John Marston politely turned down a prostitute on account of him being a married man. In other words, don't expect a game series famous for its brutal insanity to suddenly attempt at remaking Crash or something.

So erm, yeah. That's my two cents.

 

[Something Amyss]

Again, I haven't played V yet. Maybe that lie was pointed out by newbies who only started playing now?

If you haven't played it, how would you know it's true?

I did try this last night while I was waiting on my friends to get online, and apparently it is true. I picked up a prostitute with like 3/4 health, procured her "services," and when she left the car I had full health. So I guess it's confirmed. I could even video capture it, but it didn't seem like a big enough deal.

 

[EssThree]

Someone related to the petition suggested they were going to try to go higher up the food chain to the regulatory board to get the game banned outright. So, yeah, they're trying to commit censorship.

I think Bob needs to bone up on the ratings hell we've been in here for the past decade or so with games essentially being banned.

 

[m19]

In Skyrim you can axe murder women, take their souls, pile their corpses in the town square. Rob them. Undress them. And oh yeah, if you have a certain ring you can eat their corpses to restore your health.

But sure, GTA is the worst...

 

[MolotoK]

Last time I checked the GTA series never depicts the exploitation of sex workers in a positive light. In fact, even though it lets the player engage in these activities, it always puts a negative spin on it. The "servies" are depicted as unfulfilling, the women are depicted as unhappy with their situation, the strip club owners are crooks, even the main character has some negative comments about the whole affair (at least in GTA IV).

You'd have to twist a lot of facts to make an argument that the GTA series endorses violence or going on shooting sprees. You'd be outright lying if you argued that the GTA series endorses exploitative sex work. It does the opposite.

Please stfu about video games if you don't understand their message.

 

[Irregular Dice]

I think if, in the next Grand Theft Auto, they dialed back the prostitutes, or even got rid of them entirely, it would make absolutely no difference to me in either a gameplay or a narrative capacity. But it might make some people feel less uncomfortable or remove that discomfort entirely.

So go right ahead Rockstar. You have my permission to create a more welcoming and friendly environment for everyone.

But isn't GTA a series about the criminal underworld? The whole point of the game is that the world(or city) is horrible to the point of satire. In Vice city alone, there's the mafia, gang warfare, criminal filmmakers, coke as hidden collectibles and drug delivery in ice cream trucks. Prostitutes have been there since GTA 3. Are they part of the narrative? no but there are part of the corrupt sleazy city image that has always been in the GTA games.

Although I do understand the discomfort, I myself am but, in a game about crime, drugs, money and power, it's not out of place.
I'm not a big fan of GTA, I just drive around for hours listening to the radio.

 

[Something Amyss]

But isn't GTA a series about the criminal underworld? The whole point of the game is that the world(or city) is horrible to the point of satire.

So? You know what else is an element of the horribly reality of the world? Child trafficking. Nobody's upset that GTA lacks the slavery or prostitution of children.

Rockstar has very clearly already set limits on what goes in the games. Would most people even notice the lack of prostitutes?

 

[Lightknight]

"People's Republic of Overreactistan" is now my new go-to definition for this trend of blind outrage over relatively minor issues.

Does it make you mad when people react in ways that you feel is they shouldn't? Does it frustrate you when people care more about a subject than you do and so you think the world would just be better if everyone just responded to things better the same way you do? Sounds pretty self centered to me. Petty even. Pick anything you are passionate about and consider whether or not you'd welcome outsiders belittling you for caring too much about something they don't.

Look, Target decided to make a sexist statement. That women were more in need of big brother Target to come protect their digital counterparts than males. They also established that they were only doing this regarding violence committed about women and not violence in general which establishes that they're ok with violence committed against men.

Sexism against women: Check.
Sexism against men: Check.

Target should be ashamed? Check.

It would make sense if there was even a disproportionate amount of violence in the game committed against women. But the story only has like two women die in it from what I've heard and countless males mowed down in the process. There's no sexual violence in the game, you can't rape or molest females. There are prostitutes in the game but so are there in real life and in some places in the US it's even legal. So at best their presence would be a moral issue rather than some kind of ethical imperative.

Whoever wrote the article didn't play the game or lied about the facts they presented. Same goes for whatever Target exec fell for it unless they just wanted to make a PR stunt like Bob here indicates. I'm not sure Bob is correct though as far as it not being very profitable since GTA V's remake versions are in the top ten sellers in the gaming category, both outstripping Super Smash Brothers which is at number 5. That's just as of the week of the 22nd of November. Did Target drop the product before or after the first week of release? If after, then yeah, it doesn't matter financially. Every popular game has the vast majority of sales in the first week.

 

[ZippyDSMlee]

The problem with changing the whole sex worker thing is you either remove them or make them like the kids in fallout/skyrim IE unkillable. Neither is quite realistic....

 

[Something Amyss]

The problem with changing the whole sex worker thing is you either remove them or make them like the kids in fallout/skyrim IE unkillable. Neither is quite realistic....

In a game where you can raid a military base, blow up tanks, and the cops (and military) stop looking for you in thirty seconds.

Wait, I'm sorry, what were we talking about again?

 

[hermes]

I think if, in the next Grand Theft Auto, they dialed back the prostitutes, or even got rid of them entirely, it would make absolutely no difference to me in either a gameplay or a narrative capacity. But it might make some people feel less uncomfortable or remove that discomfort entirely.

So go right ahead Rockstar. You have my permission to create a more welcoming and friendly environment for everyone.

But isn't GTA a series about the criminal underworld? The whole point of the game is that the world(or city) is horrible to the point of satire. In Vice city alone, there's the mafia, gang warfare, criminal filmmakers, coke as hidden collectibles and drug delivery in ice cream trucks. Prostitutes have been there since GTA 3. Are they part of the narrative? no but there are part of the corrupt sleazy city image that has always been in the GTA games.

Although I do understand the discomfort, I myself am but, in a game about crime, drugs, money and power, it's not out of place.
I'm not a big fan of GTA, I just drive around for hours listening to the radio.

I never thought it was out of place, but it might not be necessary. If they can still get the seedy, sleezy underworld vibe without prostitutes (And I believe they can), then perhaps they should try it.

But they should do it because they think it no longer serves a propose, not because some people may get offended by it. If they think it makes a difference to them, they should not be coerced into changing it, less of all because it might offend some people.
Heck, some people believe it was not necessary for Han Solo to shoot first, or for Constantine to smoke on his TV show; but that doesn't stop people from complaining for the changes.

 

[ZippyDSMlee]

The problem with changing the whole sex worker thing is you either remove them or make them like the kids in fallout/skyrim IE unkillable. Neither is quite realistic....

In a game where you can raid a military base, blow up tanks, and the cops (and military) stop looking for you in thirty seconds.

Wait, I'm sorry, what were we talking about again?

Killing females apparently.

 

[Lightknight]

The problem with changing the whole sex worker thing is you either remove them or make them like the kids in fallout/skyrim IE unkillable. Neither is quite realistic....

Also, and I can't stress this enough, prostitutes actually exist in the real world and are no less deserving of representation than any of the other criminal elements in the game. In fact, prostitution is actually legal in at least one state in the US. Just because some people have a repressed sense of sexuality doesn't mean we should impose our morals on those who don't.

So... where's the beef?

 

[hermes]

I think if, in the next Grand Theft Auto, they dialed back the prostitutes, or even got rid of them entirely, it would make absolutely no difference to me in either a gameplay or a narrative capacity. But it might make some people feel less uncomfortable or remove that discomfort entirely.

So go right ahead Rockstar. You have my permission to create a more welcoming and friendly environment for everyone.

But isn't GTA a series about the criminal underworld? The whole point of the game is that the world(or city) is horrible to the point of satire. In Vice city alone, there's the mafia, gang warfare, criminal filmmakers, coke as hidden collectibles and drug delivery in ice cream trucks. Prostitutes have been there since GTA 3. Are they part of the narrative? no but there are part of the corrupt sleazy city image that has always been in the GTA games.

Although I do understand the discomfort, I myself am but, in a game about crime, drugs, money and power, it's not out of place.
I'm not a big fan of GTA, I just drive around for hours listening to the radio.

I never thought it was out of place, but it might not be necessary. If they can still get the seedy, sleezy underworld vibe without prostitutes (And I believe they can), then perhaps they should try it.

But they should do it because they think it no longer serves a propose, not because some people may get offended by it. If they think it makes a difference to them, they should not be coerced into changing it, less of all because it might offend some people.
Heck, some people believe it was not necessary for Han Solo to shoot first, or for Constantine to smoke on his TV show; but that doesn't stop people from complaining for the changes.

You ever do something you didnt think much about that hurt someones feelings, and then when they brought it to your attention, you stopped?

If it's not a big deal to them, then I don't think it needs to be a big artistic decision. They could do it just to make people happier. There's nothing wrong with that.

Except it IS a big artistic decision for them. To have hookers as health dispensers was not something "they didn't think too much", and then they got surprised at people's reaction. It was a conscious decision from the very beginning of the series...

We are not talking about some unfortunate implications in the game no one called to their attention for the last 20 years, we are talking about something that they intentionally included and designed to act the way it does, so lets not insult their intelligence by thinking there was no authorial intent here, and that petition should opened their eyes to the real world.

If they think the prostitutes doesn't serve a propose in their sleezy underworld and want to remove them, fine, go for it. But if it does, they should feel no need to bend to pressure to change THEIR game. And a group of angry Australian mothers should not be the ones in charge of deciding that...

And, by the way, the Houser brothers were never people that had a pretty high regard for other people's feelings being hurt through their games. I am not even a fan of GTA (the last I played was a couple hours of 4 before I was bored to tears), but I can at least respect them for making the game they want to make...

 

[Irregular Dice]

Spoiler: Snip

I think if, in the next Grand Theft Auto, they dialed back the prostitutes, or even got rid of them entirely, it would make absolutely no difference to me in either a gameplay or a narrative capacity. But it might make some people feel less uncomfortable or remove that discomfort entirely.

So go right ahead Rockstar. You have my permission to create a more welcoming and friendly environment for everyone.

But isn't GTA a series about the criminal underworld? The whole point of the game is that the world(or city) is horrible to the point of satire. In Vice city alone, there's the mafia, gang warfare, criminal filmmakers, coke as hidden collectibles and drug delivery in ice cream trucks. Prostitutes have been there since GTA 3. Are they part of the narrative? no but there are part of the corrupt sleazy city image that has always been in the GTA games.

Although I do understand the discomfort, I myself am but, in a game about crime, drugs, money and power, it's not out of place.
I'm not a big fan of GTA, I just drive around for hours listening to the radio.

I never thought it was out of place, but it might not be necessary. If they can still get the seedy, sleezy underworld vibe without prostitutes (And I believe they can), then perhaps they should try it.

Oh, I agree but it all depends on the wishes on the developer. It would be nice, but only if they wish, we can't force them. (I know you're not insinuating anything of the sort).

But isn't GTA a series about the criminal underworld? The whole point of the game is that the world(or city) is horrible to the point of satire.

So? You know what else is an element of the horribly reality of the world? Child trafficking. Nobody's upset that GTA lacks the slavery or prostitution of children.

Rockstar has very clearly already set limits on what goes in the games. Would most people even notice the lack of prostitutes?

Hmmm...normally no one would even notice if they removed the prostitutes. Problem is, the prostitute element has become ingrained in GTA's "Controversial" image, and in addition with them being in almost all GTA games, it seems rather silly to remove them because of controversy's sake. Again, it would be nice but we can't force these things.

 

[Mythmaker]

Bob, please stop talking about games. I get nothing out of listening to you talk about games but a headache.

Forget your lumping every critic of this decision into the same disdained category. Ignore your refusal to comment on the actual merit of the argument presented in the petition. Don't even think about the kind of precedent this sets in a country where the status of this sort of media is already so precarious.

What bothers me most is that, when it comes to games, it doesn't look like you can actually SEE the "Big Picture."

It just occurred to me. Moviebob is like roger ebert. Neither have contributed meaningfully to discussions about games and gamer culture.

I'm not sure that's fair. For one, while Ebert (R.I.P.) obviously was not a supporter of the medium, his comments sparked a lot of interesting, and possibly important conversation about the nature of games.

For another, while Ebert didn't believe games were art, he wasn't petulant, dismissive, or confrontational towards other opinions like Bob is.

 

[Something Amyss]

Killing females apparently.

Pretty sure you said something about realism. In a GTA game.

Hmmm...normally no one would even notice if they removed the prostitutes. Problem is, the prostitute element has become ingrained in GTA's "Controversial" image, and in addition with them being in almost all GTA games, it seems rather silly to remove them because of controversy's sake. Again, it would be nice but we can't force these things.

People on here have commented to the contrary, and more importantly, people who have complained about the Target petition seem to have been largely unaware that picking up prostitutes does restore your health. At this point, I really do wonder how integral this is to anyone but critics of the series.