The Big Picture: On The Subject Of Violence

[Atomic]

But isn't blood lust and violent tendencies inherent in human nature?
I mean why are violent video games very popular?
I find the majority of spree killings boils down to 2 main things, Ideology and being rejected by society and their peers. Violent media may make one more violent or desensitize someone to violence but it isn't (at least in my opinion) what causes one to do it.

 

[Grahav]

Good argument Bob.

 

[LazyAza]

I think the people who just want to ban and censor things because they think it will fix societies problems are naively delusional about the true chaotic unpredictable nature of us human beings. It's quite sad and frustrating that these people seem to always be the ones in power or with a voice that can be heard by many.

The human mind is a complex infinitely unique thing across all people and far too many seem to think their is a means to control, alter and otherwise "manufacture" ideal perfect societies in which no bad happens anywhere ever and censorship is but a tiny aspect of them exercising their ability to try to create that perceived idealized world. I utterly despise anyone who thinks that control and restraint are in any way a means to shifting the balance of the world in to happy, innocent, no-one ever gets hurt time 24/7.

Fucking reality is reality because we never have nor ever will have that level of control. You could ban every single form of media or art for all time and people will still find a reason for doing horrible things. Their is no good without evil, their is no perfection without flaw. The universe is and always will be about balance and we are no more immune to this than anything else.

 

[cthulhuspawn82]

You cant blame any influence on the actions of a psychopath. Being a psychopath is like being gay, they are born that way. There is no influence, or lack of influence, that can turn someone into a mass murdering psychopath. They either are one, are they aren't.

 

[Karavision]

Good one, but the discussion has been on gun control, not censorship.

 

[Valagetti]

Philosophical angle of un-falsifiability - check.
Classical view of self-preservation - check.
A sound argument - check.
Calling out on the media for their constant influx of bullshit - check.
Bob will you marry me?

 

[psijac]

First time I have agreed with a liberal in a while well done

 

[penthesilea180]

I don't think we need to have a conversation about media effects. For the reasons Bob stated, it is a moot point. We should be talking about our mental health system, or lack there of.

 

[maximara]

Pretty much what I've been saying all along. You can have some asshole start picking off hunters in the woods claiming he's avenging Bambi's mom, but that doesn't mean Bambi should be banned.

Psychopaths will look for anything to inspire them, and they'll find inspiration no matter what anyone else does. Banning certain forms of media means they'll just look elsewhere until we've effectively banned everything.

Right and before movies and video games you had other sources for "inspiration"; Terry Jone's _Crusades_ brings up how already violent thugs called knight were given a new direction (for largely political reasons) to "kill for God" in the Holy Land. By the loopy logic being presented we should ban the Bible; pointing this out shuts down the would be censors faster then anything else.

The best counter is the Colosseum where for a period of over four centuries (c80 - c520 CE) where violent entertainment was the rule. The Romans didn't go nuts and kill each other after an event though if the event didn't happened as planned...you had a problem.

 

[PlasticLion]

I'm kinda shocked by all the comments here. Didn't we prove that violent art causes unstable but otherwise benign people to become violent? Remember when we built that time machine? We grabbed that guy from the late 1800's, what was his name, oh yeah Jimmy Rice! We showed him that FMV game The Ripper and that movie Ripper: Letters From Hell. Then we sent him back with a laser scalpel and laughed hysterically as history rewrote itself to include his killing spree.

We didn't do that? Then I have no idea who Jack the Ripper was. Or what motivated him to do the things he did.

 

[Imperius]

Bob makes an excellent argument her, one that can easily applied to the issue of gun control. Do violent criminals use guns to kill people? Yes they do. Is it likely you are going to get shot by a violent criminal in your lifetime: no its not.

Just because criminals use guns, doesnt mean we should get rid of them. We should not make rash emotional decisions just because some wackjob decides he's going to kill someone. Where there is a will, there is a way, and guns are just the most commonly used tool of destruction in our era.

 

[FogBird]

Well spoken Bob, though I don't agree with everything you said there.
However, the bigger problem is that when you publish something like this on the Escapist, it doesn't reach the right audience. Most (if not all) of those who visit the Escapist are people who already have a strong opinion about the subject. What you said will be more suited when speaking with those who don't have such a decisive opinion in the matter, or those who have the opposite opinion we find here in the site.
I do agree this needs to be discussed, but it needs to be in a less niche forum.

 

[neoontime]

Thanks for that, I'm more than annoyed when people say that something had no influence on a crime. Yes, I understand that even owning up to it allows the "protect the children " people t say they're right but that's not the point. When people own up to it, censorship falls flat on the point that a madman will be influenced by anything and putting a strain on the innocent doesn't help.

 

[Metalrocks]

thats why i dont bother watching the news or read the newspaper because they just make me angry by reading the BS they write at times. were every sane person knows thats not the case.

germany is the best example.
every time there was a violent outburst or a shooting that was done by a child, they blamed games and movies, instead asking the questions how he got the gun in the first place or why he did it. no, they just say it was games and movies. the end.
germany has the toughest censoring law in the world. you hardly will find a movie or a game that is uncut.
you want to buy the 1982 version of "the thing"??? good luck, you cant find it in any shops besides some smaller once that have it under the counter. the same as with the evil dead franchise. other movies are just cut and only some of them you can get the uncut version.
want to buy the original version of HL1??? cant get it. you only get the german version that is heavily cut down. the soldiers have been replaced with robots and no blood what so ever.

these idiots, these youth protection service, seriously think they protect children from any violent behavior. and the politicians support them and believe them.

 

[Trishbot]

I'm sure someone in the prior five pages said it... but this quote from "Scream" comes to mind.

"Movies don't make killers. Movies just make killers more creative."

 

[ReiverCorrupter]

thats why i dont bother watching the news or read the newspaper because they just make me angry by reading the BS they write at times. were every sane person knows thats not the case.

germany is the best example.
every time there was a violent outburst or a shooting that was done by a child, they blamed games and movies, instead asking the questions how he got the gun in the first place or why he did it. no, they just say it was games and movies. the end.
germany has the toughest censoring law in the world. you hardly will find a movie or a game that is uncut.
you want to buy the 1982 version of "the thing"??? good luck, you cant find it in any shops besides some smaller once that have it under the counter. the same as with the evil dead franchise. other movies are just cut and only some of them you can get the uncut version.
want to buy the original version of HL1??? cant get it. you only get the german version that is heavily cut down. the soldiers have been replaced with robots and no blood what so ever.

these idiots, these youth protection service, seriously think they protect children from any violent behavior. and the politicians support them and believe them.

Leave Germany alone, it takes them a lot of effort to repress their impulse for world domination. They have to get their children while they're young so they can scrub the will to power out of their cerebral cortices.

 

[Aureliano]

Oh man, censoring entertainment/media based on how likely they are to cause violent behavior (and how much they've done so in the past) sounds like a brilliant idea!

Let's start with the most egregious offenders: every fucking religious text ever written. The bible? The Koran? The Torah? That Bhagavad Gita? Dianetics? Every single one of them has been used to justify atrocities enacted upon people. Until those things get censored en mass I have no sympathy for any argument about removing any and all violent content from video games and movies.

In all seriousness though, don't censor religious texts or anything else just because it gives people 'bad ideas'. The fact that people have tried to justify atrocities using religious texts or video games or movies just means those people are retarded. It has no bearing on the texts they 'refer' to.

 

[downsyndromechimp]

I haven't read ANY of the comments, so I don't know if anyone has touched on what I'm about to say. And yet, I feel the need to comment on this in a way that (at the very least) has not been commented on by the media at large. So... Here's the Medusa in the room:

Perhaps (again... this is just a theory. I have ABSOLUTELY NO statistical backing for this) perhaps these killings, along with SO many in recent history* are more about the rebellion against what so many view as the traditional being than the influence of violence apon them.

I don't usually do this, but let's go to the stars:
*Doom/violent games - columbine.
*Similarly, Dark knight rises/violence in media (general) - recent shootings.

I will admit WHOLEHEARTEDLY that I can't associate/disassociate any link made by these connections. BUT, maybe, just MAYBE, exposing the young in our society to it...

You know what - SCREW IT!!!

Here is the simple, yet difficult, fact: WE ARE ALL CAPABLE OF THIS KIND OF VIOLENCE. Humanity is, by nature violent. Deal with it. If you deny it, then you're only limiting your chance of preventing it within yourself. Whether you want to believe it or not, YOU COULD DO THIS TOO!!! You could become this kind of killing, remorseless creature yourself. The reason you haven't - You chose not to.

Ugh.... Sorry for the rambling. I really hope at least ONE of you understands this and is willing to take the initiative to change yourself for the better. But, maybe I'm wrong.

 

[haruvister]

Just as Bob alluded, it's those who treat films and games as a "lower" form of art who call loudest for their censorship, because it is they who've least to lose. Movies are just entertainment and games a mindless distraction, so they can live without them. Except the level of violence in so-called fine art is often more extreme than that found in most modern mainstream culture. The imagery of Hieronymus Bosch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Judgment_(Bosch_triptych)) is pretty distressing at times. Some would argue that such art doesn't put the (virtual) tools of violence in the hands of the observer in the way that games do. But the passivity - the lack of interaction - in such art brings its own problems: like Manhunter's/Red Dragon's Francis Dolarhyde transfixed by the work of William Blake, we are free to stare at the Bosch until it dominates us, until we are awed and unable to respond, unable to reclaim control. The painting is a singular work emerging from the dark recesses of the artist's mind - which sounds not a million miles from the self-aggrandisement of a broken brain seeking expression with a bag of guns.

Movies, meanwhile, may show us horrors, but their narrative structures mean such horrors are part of a greater whole. For example, redemption and sorrow on the part of the perpetrator; grief and vengeance on the part of the victims. The Joker's chaos is foiled by the essential good will of humanity, and so he becomes a footnote (hence his exclusion from Rises, I might add!).

Bob is correct in pointing out that we cannot predict what will inspire the next gun rampage. Even if we were to remove all cultural artefacts from the face of the world, it's not as if the psychotic would fail to find inspiration - there is, after all, always religion to fill that gap.