The Big Picture: Pink Is Not The Problem

[chikusho]

... and if one believes that you can shift one culture to a different culture like a puzzle piece and have that fit nicely then you are going to be wrong.

Which is why feminism and other movements within these matters need to be constantly brought up and discussed. That way we'll be able to bring a gradual societal change over many years towards a better and more equal future.

 

[generals3]

The fact that masculinity is tied to things like aggression is probably why people would fear a guy. But yes, I agree MovieBob doesn't, and never really does, know what he's talking about.

It's less that those feminine traits are seen as evil but more that they are seen as lesser. It's why a girl can be given the thumbs up if she's playing with say toy power tools because she's so tough. However a boy playing with a tea set, that's feminine so he's a wimp. And yeah, there are some camp villains, Maybe Loki could be seen as feminine, I'm not sure if it's a huge trend though. EDIT: I'd actually say the film version of Iron Man is fairly effinant. He cares about his looks, about having lots of money about having lots of things, he cares about partying, and he has much less machismo than the rest of the Avengers cast and he's the favourite.

MovieBob seems to blame this trend on people trying to break down gender barriers, but those people also created the gender neutral easy bake oven so I'm not sure who this video is addressed too.

Well with the "inferior" part I think it really depends on the type of movie. In an action movie it is true masculinity is presented as being "better" but that's because it kind of has to. Action heroes usually rely on stubbornness and strength to accomplish their mission and these two are typically male traits. A typically "feminine" action hero would be one who'd be victorious through diplomacy and compromise but at that point the "action" part of the movie would kind of disappear. On the other hand if you start looking at less action oriented movies it starts getting more blurry. In some movies it is true femininity is portrayed as lesser (shallow, irrational, etc.) but at the same time in others femininity is portrayed as being "the voice of reason". So personally I really don't think we can make media-wide claims about the portrayal of gender-traits because there doesn't seem to be a general rule.

And I personally never associated Loki with "feminine". Just a self-centered ambitious backstabbing narcissist. And while caring about looks is typically feminine caring about money isn't so with iron man it's kind of a mixed character too. He's actually quite macho in certain ways (in others not).

 

[WarpZone]

Pink Is Not The Problem

MovieBob takes on the gender stereotyping our society dabbles in.

Watch Video

Interesting.

You know, Bob, one of the strongest feminists I know recently wrote a thingy in which the bad guy, a devil-analogue named Sentinel, was portrayed a vaguely effeminate man. I don't know that I'd describe him as mincing. But he was, by design, erudite, well-spoken, impeccably dressed, and very beautiful. He was also unspeakably cruel and subtle enough at leading his victims on to get away with it. The author told me (and I hope I'm not butchering this too badly,) that while the main inspiration for him was a CD she had listened to that she really liked and her own ingrained-during-her-formative-years mistrust of traditionally "pretty" people, a lot of the minor details were informed by classical literature and storytelling tropes.

This was all coming from somebody who has a massive body of work depicting everything from fat chicks to dragon-kin to gay couples holding hands. I mean, just look at some of this stuff: http://discountbinninja.deviantart.com/gallery/ This is not the art of somebody with a vested interest in mainstream ideals of beauty!

I guess what I'm saying is, it's been my experience that sometimes they don't make the bad guy effeminate because they're trying to enforce an outdated gender stereotype. Sometimes they portray the bad guy, male or female, as sleazy, manipulative, menacing, wealthy and sneaky because those are good qualities for a villain to have.

I'm not saying your breakdown of Xerxes is flawed (especially given his counterpart Leonidas, who definitely does not resemble the heroine in my friend's tale, nor her love-interest,) just that it'd be really hard to write a movie where Draco Malfoy saves an orphanage from Superman. (No, Dr. Horrible doesn't count. It was a deliberate subversion for comedy's sake.)

I guess what I'm saying is, do you think it's reasonable to say that some of Xerxes's traits could be legitimately used to signal "Villain" in a work where their motive for being there has nothing to do with outdated concepts of masculinity and femininity, and instead just used to signal "this is a sneaky person who doesn't mean it when he smiles?"

Cruella Deville and Jafar are basically the same character from a method-acting perspective. At some point, doesn't it make sense to stop saying that Jafar talks and acts the way he does because they're trying to make him look gay, and start saying that he just talks and acts the way he does because it's creepy and off-putting and unnerving?

Or would we need to make up a whole lot of ground in terms of equality and civility and equal rights and not-being-judgemental-towards-queer-folk before the playing field is level enough to even support an argument like the one I just made?

(Please try and respond to this if you see it. I really do want to know if it's fair to call each of Xerxes's traits "stuff," neither good nor evil except depending on context.)

Thanks for another great episode, and for fighting the good fight against sexism.

 

[GamerFromJump]

I always played as Peach in Mario 2, and now in Super Mario 3D World, because her ability made her the best characters in most situations.

Also relevant was the statement from Bryan Konietzko during the development of The Legend of Korra: "Conventional TV wisdom has it that girls will watch shows about boys, but boys won't watch shows about girls. During test screenings, though, boys said they didn't care that Korra was a girl. They just said she was awesome."


Make a good character, and gender becomes unimportant/less important.

 

[Do4600]

Or we could all just buy our toys from manufacturers who have never associated gender roles with their toys? You know, companies that have always deserved our business?

So we associate feminine with bad yet can't have female villains. Even the ones mentioned are retroactively turned into good guys.

What about

Spoiler: Her

Ugh, I chills just from looking at her.

I don't know who she is or her movie.

Your loss friend. The film is called Ran, it's directed by Akira Kurosawa and was released in 1985. Incredible film.

 

[mindfaQ]

This presentation had some good points in it imo - our own history sometimes has bigger impact on our lives than we might want to admit and it takes time to throw away some ballast.

 

[Elf Defiler Korgan]

Pink Is Not The Problem

MovieBob takes on the gender stereotyping our society dabbles in.

Watch Video

Nicely done. You just created a resource for first years in uni and the gender week in an intro sociology class.

Well done.

 

[Elf Defiler Korgan]

I always played as Peach in Mario 2, and now in Super Mario 3D World, because her ability made her the best characters in most situations.

Also relevant was the statement from Bryan Konietzko during the development of The Legend of Korra: "Conventional TV wisdom has it that girls will watch shows about boys, but boys won't watch shows about girls. During test screenings, though, boys said they didn't care that Korra was a girl. They just said she was awesome."


Make a good character, and gender becomes unimportant/less important.

Yeah. You may also want to watch the lead Balsa in Moribito.

 

[hexFrank202]

I like your societal commentary SO much better when it's clearly inspired by topical relevance or a philosophical discovery, and the video resulting has this positive, upbeat, encouraging energy... than when it's clearly coming from anger and a bit of bitterness, like someone pissed you off about the subject that morning.

You're (slowly) getting a lot better being nice and positive about everything to your fans, Bob. Keep it up!

 

[Helmholtz Watson]

Where is "natural order" then, other than where it belongs - bent to will of those with the vision and temerity to do the bending?

And who's will should it be bent towards? Who gets to do the bending? Do only people with Western Liberal values get to do this, or is it free to everybody, including people who don't have western values? Do they have the right to bend the will to their vision, or is this "bending of will" a right that only occidental countries are allowed to have?

I only ask because too often it seems like some people are more than happy in wanting to mimic Mao Zedong's[footnote]To clarify, I'm not saying that people want to mimic Mao's violence towards innocent people, just his attitude towards traditional Chinese culture.[/footnote] "relationship" with traditional Chinese culture, by come up with their own "four olds" and supporting the idea of a Cultural Revolution(red guards and all). What about those of us that don't support this cultural revolution, and those of us that don't agree on what should be considered the "four olds"?

So funny that you mention that. My Chinese teacher mention that the ridding of tradition ended up screwing them over as they ended up losing part of their own culture and identity, and now partly have to rely on Taiwan to bring back part of the culture that was lost. Funny enough it's ridding of the old just because it's old, and the belief that it can't accommodate every person and culture with out the irony that their system what ever it is would be the same. Some of the norms that was developing has done more to shit on femininity than any misogynist has ever done. Hell there was a discussion that was brought in about a women choice to not follow the ideals of feminist and that was brought out as impossible.

I know tone is sometimes hard to tell the tone of a comment on the internet, so let me just say that my following sentence is genuine and not meant to be dismissive, condescending, or combative.
I'm confused as to what you are trying to say about my comment to MovieBob, other than the fact that I brought up China and you have a Chinese teacher. Again, I'm not trying to be rude, but I'm kind of lost as to what the point of your response is.

Honestly the only thing people ever get right is Gender being a social construct based on region, social, biological, and language, which means culture, and if one believes that you can shift one culture to a different culture like a puzzle piece and have that fit nicely then you are going to be wrong. Like putting on make up considered feminine here, but on other parts of the world it is masculine, but that doesn't mean one can shove on group norms to another and say it's all good.

So then....you agree with me that "Western Liberal values" are not the only (for a lack of better words) "good option" when deciding on how to bend the will of a culture?

 

[Helmholtz Watson]

Where is "natural order" then, other than where it belongs - bent to will of those with the vision and temerity to do the bending?

And who's will should it be bent towards? Who gets to do the bending? Do only people with Western Liberal values get to do this,

Ew.

Care to provide a more thought out response to my question than the minimal comment you originally posted?

I only ask because too often it seems like some people are more than happy in wanting to mimic Mao Zedong's "relationship" with traditional Chinese culture, by come up with their own "four olds" and supporting the idea of a Cultural Revolution(red guards and all). What about those of us that don't support this cultural revolution, and those of us that don't agree on what should be considered the "four olds"?

Then like any reactionary force you'd have your anti-progressive attitudes suppressed by whatever means necessary.

...And is that supposed to be a good thing that there would be red guards to suppress the attitudes of those who don't agree with the same beliefs as MovieBob?

 

[Bbleds]

So finally had some free time to watch, and this was a very interesting episode. So since it mainly discussed the issue; my opinion on how to avoid this in the future ,specifically with regards to creative media works, is to simply let characters to be characters. The more a writer forces a work to fit a model, gender/sexual orientation archetype for example, the more it will be noticed and likely interpreted as such. To clarify, I am not saying archetypes/stereotypes should be completely ignored. Just that when someone is making a plot and sees a character is a woman, man, gay, straight, bisexual, alien, animal, lovecraftian horror, etc; they could maybe use less "well they should do this because they are...." and more "now how would my creative character react in this scenario." One last thing on my comment on a possibly old and dead (by internet standards) board; if anyone already said something like this I apologize since I rode in after about 300 comments. Was hoping (obviously) for a discussion on what others thought on making "stuff better" or more reflective of our current culture.

 

[Requia]

As much as I'd like to say Bob is right, he is kind of wrong about a few things. Gender tropes do sometimes actually exist. I'm a father of 2 sons, and across the street are 2 little girls. They all play together, but what I notice is that the boys have an increased interest in violence, especially competitive violence. The girls are more developed mentally which is to be expected as girls development faster mentally. As thus they tend to get tired of the endless wave of swords, guns, and the sheer obsession with violent character types (ninjas, soldiers, zombies, alien invaders, etc).

And all of that is about how the kids were raised and the media they've been exposed too. Mental biological differences don't develop until puberty.

 

[Yuuki]

And all of that is about how the kids were raised and the media they've been exposed too. Mental biological differences don't develop until puberty.

So the kids were raised that way and exposed to media, which is their parents' fault. And their parents are only doing it because that's what they were brought up to do by their parents. In fact long before media came around, girls and boys were even more pressured into gender stereotypes by their parents and society...so I have a hard time believing media made things worse. The cycle goes back hundreds, if not thousands of years, with no apparent beginning and no end in sight.

And now we're being told it's all a negative thing (something that needs to stop), when girls being girls and boys being boys is one of the main reasons we've made it so far, how entire civilizations progressed.

Interesting times we live in, that's for sure.

 

[Requia]

And all of that is about how the kids were raised and the media they've been exposed too. Mental biological differences don't develop until puberty.

So the kids were raised that way and exposed to media, which is their parents' fault. And their parents are only doing it because that's what they were brought up to do by their parents. In fact long before media came around, girls and boys were even more pressured into gender stereotypes by their parents and society...so I have a hard time believing media made things worse. The cycle goes back hundreds, if not thousands of years, with no apparent beginning and no end in sight.

And now we're being told it's all a negative thing (something that needs to stop), when girls being girls and boys being boys is one of the main reasons we've made it so far, how entire civilizations progressed.

Interesting times we live in, that's for sure.

While all cultures do have male/female roles, they vary drastically across time and culture. Pink was a little boys color until the early 20th century, and little boys were often dressed in well, behold FDR, age 2: http://imgur.com/3XEr48V

Even stuff like men fight/women don't are *not* universal in Anglo cultural heritage (which I single out to avoid any vaguely racist nitpicking about how other cultures weren't progressing), both Viking invaders to Britain and the Celtic natives resisting the Romans saw women in combat, and in significant proportions as well.

 

[Regless]

I loved this episode. It's very true to the point that whenever I see a pink haired character I'm immediately expecting her to be dumb, and/or weak and am usually not disappointed... err usually am disappoint... I'm usually correct! There.

A good example I usually think of is Amy from the Sonic games. I absolutely hated her... until I read the comics. There she at least had a personality that didn't solely revolve around the main character and could even handle being front in center in a few spin off arcs with Sonic a whole world away. And they didn't really have to change her character to do it. She was still kinda girly, still adored sonic, and was still pink. They just took certain traits of her character and applied them to other aspects so she wasn't written like a prop anymore. For example if she's willing to follow sonic into a warzone and consistently get out of it with a few scratches if anything, she's probably braver and tougher than she looks. And I think that's movie bob's point. She didn't have to be written like a slice of burnt toast because she was a pinko girly girl, that's just what many of us sometimes focus on.

On the flip side you have Sakura from Naruto. She's been largely useless for a long time and even though she got upgraded in Shippuden her role remained the same. She gets knocked out by flying bodies, scratches are wearing her down several episodes later. She just written in a way that seems to make her inferior to the male characters even when she shouldn't be. Or at least that's what I've gathered from the episodes I've seen. Cheers.

@Requia: Nice catch on the pink being a boys color

 

[The Ubermensch]

There is such a thing as too gay... Although they generally end up hate fucked... so...

Anyway... OH! The mincing and carrying on and things like that? Are they homosexual tropes or aristocratic tropes?

And... wait... I hope you're not suggesting all gays are mincers!

Your example of Leonidas? Masculine, yeah sure. But you can bet, on those dark nights in the barracks after a sweaty day of training, he's in a man meat sandwich.

I mean, not to diminish your argument but... who the fuck is stereotyping here!?!

 

[Farther than stars]

Because women simply had enough time to do it and didn't need to maintain a practical approach to body care. Especially the idea of the "American Dream", envisioned a family in which the man provides at work/war and the woman breeds more children for work/war.

Now, this perspective is problematic for a different reason. It assumes that because women don't maintain professions, they don't 'work'. That's not only incredibly offensive, because it negates housework as being actual work, but because we're speaking of an era in which women overwhelmingly did all of the housework, this also doesn't make sense. In most middle-class families, for instance, the man would have had a desk job and wouldn't need such a 'practical approach to body care' either. However, in these cases, the woman would be doing the majority of manual labour (washing, cleaning, cooking, etc.).

 

[nuttshell]

It assumes that because women don't maintain professions, they don't 'work'. That's not only incredibly offensive, because it negates housework as being actual work, but because we're speaking of an era in which women overwhelmingly did all of the housework, this also doesn't make sense. In most middle-class families, for instance, the man would have had a desk job and wouldn't need such a 'practical approach to body care' either. However, in these cases, the woman would be doing the majority of manual labour (washing, cleaning, cooking, etc.).

I never said women didnt need to do anything, I only said women had more time. I also didnt talk about desk jobs, I was thinking about building railroads, working at construction sites, in mines and in the military.