The Big Picture: Relics

Ariseishirou

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maninahat said:
What if I told you that the chief contender for the biggest structure in the World was African? The wall of Benin is five times longer than the great wall of China
I hadn't heard of them before, so thank you for sharing that bit of interesting info with us.

However, the wiki article straight up starts out with:

It was considered the largest man-made structure lengthwise, second only to the Great Wall of China...
Which, given the geography of the two regions just makes sense. It's impressive enough all on its own, no need to exaggerate it.
 

Oly J

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Dear Moviebob, would you rather be chased by a horse-sized duck or 50 duck-sized horses?

alternate question, of DC and Marvel which aspects of each do you prefer and why?
 

VoidWanderer

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Very well done. Great episode. I confess to have never considered the trope of 'The Lost City'. I have definitely learned something new and insightful today.
 

ManInRed

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Since lots of people are claiming they thought of the Mayans first, in a vain attempt to prove they're not racist, I might as well say Angkor if the first place I think of as a lost city. Its a terrific ruin, and just first image that jumps to my mind. It deserves some love too. Ah, there's something about stone buildings being swallowed up by juggle that is just cool anywhere, I doubt this concept will ever fade.

It is easy, and to be honest encouraging, that people today have a hard time thinking certain bad ideas were so universally accepted in the foundation of a lot of our tropes. Sure we can rationalize other reasons for these conclusions than straight up racism, but that would be ignoring the forest while trying to depute the existence of the trees.

Just take Piltdown Man, and obvious forgery that was originally ignore as such at the time by those who should have known better because it supported the argument that humanity emerged from Britain. Which means accepted science at the time told people that ancient civilizations were all white, thus the notion of lost white cities in Africa was not such a stupid idea back then. Still, however the idea happen, racism help shape it, as it influence so many things it was impossible for it not to have played some hand in it.
 

SnakeoilSage

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So the lesson is, what? That we should just stop whining about people being racist because "that's how it's always been?" That calling a racist out for his unsubstantiated hatred for someone based on the melanin count in his skin is something we just have to put up with because it's traditional?

Consider the fact that for the past 100,000 or so years since humanity appeared, there has not been a great deal of advancement. Certain moments saw progress, but our species has advanced faster in the past century than it has in all its existence. Yes, I goddamn do expect racism to pack it in and leave. Along with sexism, persecution based on and/or because of religion, and every other backwater ideal that has held us in a state of cultural stasis for centuries. A resigned attitude to its presence is like a doctor just shrugging off a man's health issues because "that's what happens at your age."

Fuck. That. We have computers, microwaves and saran wrap. FUCKING FIX IT!
 

Canyoureadmydeadpan

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I always assumed Lost City mythology was South American in origin and originated from the tons of lost cities left behind when the Spanish killed of Indian tribes.
 

e.wlmo4

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Great episode bob but to think that something so entrenched in popular culture came from such of a backwards place really sucks.
Now my question for you is with the release of Red Dead Redemption and LA Noire do you think that Rockstar has used their tech for better and more varied storytelling. Also has your 360 collection grown beyond Arkham Asylum and Bioshock.
 

immortalfrieza

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Excellent episode Bob, as always, and it's quite true, racism is and probably always will be part of our society in some for or another.

Now for my mailbag questions, I'll put out a few, and considering the topic of this episode, I'll make them about your own personal experiences with racism:

1. What kinds of racism have you personally been a victim of?

2. Consciously or unconsciously, what kinds of racism have you personally perpetrated?

3. For you, at what point does racism cross the line between joke and serious and starts to piss you off?
 

immortalfrieza

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SnakeoilSage said:
So the lesson is, what? That we should just stop whining about people being racist because "that's how it's always been?" That calling a racist out for his unsubstantiated hatred for someone based on the melanin count in his skin is something we just have to put up with because it's traditional?
What Bob's saying is that racism is deeply entrenched in the society and culture of the ENTIRE human race, and that humanity has only made any real effort to get rid of racism in the past couple decades. Bob's saying it's unreasonable and unrealistic to expect every last form of racism to disappear overnight, or even in the next several decades for that matter.
 

SnakeoilSage

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immortalfrieza said:
What Bob's saying is that racism is deeply entrenched in the society and culture of the ENTIRE human race, and that humanity has only made any real effort to get rid of racism in the past couple decades. Bob's saying it's unreasonable and unrealistic to expect every last form of racism to disappear overnight, or even in the next several decades for that matter.
I understand that. But it feels like the worst kind of cop out on an important issue. I don't think expecting racism to vanish overnight is a bad thing even if it isn't realistic. If we don't hold ourselves to higher standards right this very instant, then when are we going to? Like an unhealthy lifestyle: we make time for it now or we'll be forced to later.
 

immortalfrieza

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SnakeoilSage said:
immortalfrieza said:
What Bob's saying is that racism is deeply entrenched in the society and culture of the ENTIRE human race, and that humanity has only made any real effort to get rid of racism in the past couple decades. Bob's saying it's unreasonable and unrealistic to expect every last form of racism to disappear overnight, or even in the next several decades for that matter.
I understand that. But it feels like the worst kind of cop out on an important issue. I don't think expecting racism to vanish overnight is a bad thing even if it isn't realistic. If we don't hold ourselves to higher standards right this very instant, then when are we going to? Like an unhealthy lifestyle: we make time for it now or we'll be forced to later.
Don't worry man, progess to eliminate racism IS being made all the time, it's just going to take a while. However, I seriously doubt racism won't exist in some form or another anyway regardless of what we do to stop it.
 

gring

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I think you're right to a certain extent. But I think you're missing the point on why their minds were so blown.

First of all, these kinds of ruins aren't just exclusive to Africa, and even in movies/books/games that use the idea of "lost ruins" don't just use African examples. Sure the original stories that brought the inspiration for other stories were based off of them, but by now most take other locations into consideration, and inspirations built off of other inspirations means the original stories aren't as relevant as they originally were.

Second, most of these ruins they found were made of massive stones that even our cranes today wouldn't be able to lift, and usually placed very precisely on top of each other and made massive structures with them, the reason why they're still standing today is because they're so amazing. It's the same with the Mayan temples, the same with the Asian temples, even the same with the Pyramids. Besides, why were Africans at that time living in tribal villages if they could just go build a castle out of stones?

So that's not to say that the people who built them weren't black, and of course it's comical they would 'fill in the blanks' so to speak with a bunch of white people for the original stories you're referring too. I get that part. My point here is, of course the colonials were racist, but to practically say they were so amazed because they were "just racist" seems a bit far fetched. They may have been racist, but they at least had SOME intelligence.
 

yunabomb

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SnakeoilSage said:
I understand that. But it feels like the worst kind of cop out on an important issue. I don't think expecting racism to vanish overnight is a bad thing even if it isn't realistic. If we don't hold ourselves to higher standards right this very instant, then when are we going to? Like an unhealthy lifestyle: we make time for it now or we'll be forced to later.
He's not really proposing a solution. If racism is this entrenched in society, it's not something that you can just eliminate, and it's often not something that is immediately identifiable. Fighting against racism is something that will take much exploration, action, and most importantly, listening to those impacted by it*.

*Take the hint, users here who clog threads with the same BS every time some one makes a thread about race and/or sex in videogames.
 

Elf Defiler Korgan

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That was good, balanced, I got the message. He didn't try to beat us over the head with his politics or moral posturing.

Bob though, isn't exactly right. The orientalists from their origins were always interested in the middle east, and aware that brown, blacks, Mongols, Chinese, Thai etc had their own cities, civilisations, economies and military power once they encountered such and examined it, or when an advanced or organised army rocked up and had a go at the cities of Christendom (Ottomans, early Islamic conquerors, Moors, etc etc). The Ottomans after all, almost took Europe a few times, and the various coalitions of Muslim non-whites did defeat the crusaders. Orientalism studies, anthropology and archaeology would come to understand that black Africans too, like their pre-Islamic neighbours, did have cities, forts, civilisations. Even after the reconquista, the port cities of north africa were clearly there and known, because they were hassling trade through piracy, and had connections to the Moorish territories that had recently been taken by Spain.

So to put it more accurately, there was a lot of racism about, but also educated whites interested in getting to the truth, and there was plenty of ways to broaden their understandings and encounter blacks in cities.
 

1424nathan

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Here are some questions, feel free to pick and choose any you like?

Are there any movies that you reviewed in the "Escape from the Movies" where over time your opinion of them has turned an 180?

How do you feel about accusations of bias towards movies(ex:muppets)?

Are there any genres, media, or aspects of geek culture that you simply don't get or understand the appeal?

What is the difference between a good remake and a bad remake(maybe some examples)?

Do you think that this era of cinema where geek culture has such a heavy influence on the medium where we get movies like "The Avengers" or "Scott Pilgrim vs. the World" will either die down or even backfire on itself?
 

BlackWidower

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I love what Penn Jillette said:

"Circumstances of birth are nothing more than random and should never be a source of pride or shame."

"Wanna really get rid of this bullshit racism? Stop seeing yourself as white, or black, or even American! Be yourself and fuck the tribe!"
 

Johnson McGee

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I have a question for Bob: why do people get duped into watching obviously awful movies time and time again? (cough, Jack and Jill, cough).
 

Pariahwulfen

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Imp Emissary said:
That was cool.

Ok question time.
Now that BioWare are done with Shepherd's story and are on their way to finishing up Dragon Age, what do you think they will try next?

I kind of hope they try a RPG world that has magic (and I mean magic magic), but is placed in a future world. Not as far in the future as Mass effect maybe, but at least far enough that they have electricity and indoor plumbing.

Do you think they will be trying anything like that? Have you (or anyone else really) heard of a game like that?

Thanks for the brain food Bob!
Why yes, I have heard of Shadowrun [http://www.shadowrun4.com/], I would like to see a videogame adaptation of it that does it justice though.
 

Nurb

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Considering the vast majority of us younger generations honestly don't have the thought "How could black people build this fantastic stuff?" running through our heads when the "lost city trope" is brought up, doesn't that mean we HAVE moved past it?

The fact he had to tell us how it came about shows that racism no longer affects that spesific part of the culture because the original meaning is gone and replaced by the appeal of wild, exotic locations and lost cultures.