The Big Picture: Skin Deep

[Tarkand]

Meh,

To me the problem with Heimdall's casting has little to do with 'race', has it has to do with 'respecting' the source material.

I remember coming out of Thor, and while the actor who played Heimdall did a fantastic job, while talking about the movie with friends, I said something along the line of, 'I like how they manage to make everybody look exactly like in the comic...' And then I had to correct with, 'Well, except Heimdall'. Now if me saying that a black man doesn't look like a white character is being racist... well, I guess I am, but I don't think that really qualifies.

Because no matter how good of a job he did, nothing will change the fact that he doesn't look like the character... while Thor, Odin, Loki, the Warrior Three and Sif all looked the part to a T (Well, Volstagg wasn't fat enough, but even so, he was easily identifiable).

Is it a big deal? No, not really. The movie was good and Heimdall was a scene stealer. But it's still something that can't be denied.

It's the same thing as if they had casted a blond guy to play Wolverine, or a black haired actress to play Mary Jane Watson (and hadn't dyed their hair, basically just going with it) - that doesn't mean the movie wouldn't be good. That doesn't mean the actor wouldn't do a kick ass job... but nothing would change the fact that Wolverine isn't blond and MJ isn't a black haired woman.

 

[GGZeta]

I'd argue your point and state you were being silly, but that black Superman is from Final Crisis and not even the most seasoned and well-researched comic book reader can easily understand that book.

The fact that I didn't know that proves just how completely out of touch with comics I am. And in regards to me being silly about a black superman... well I just like when things are turned around. Heck I'd love a robot superman too and I vaguely recall seeing something like that a long time ago.

 

[WolfmanNougat]

Pretty good episode, though the only thing I'd have to go against is that I always found the Goku example kinda weak since he's not really Asian when you get right down to it - he's an alien, who just happens to look human. And even then, the way he's coloured seems to lean more on the caucasian side so trying to claim that they changed his ethnicity when it was already kinda dubious just struck me as senseless fanboy bitching. Of course, I'm completely ignoring the fact that Dragonball Evolution sucked and so does Justin Chatwin's acting but that's neither here nor there. I'm also ignoring the whole thing where anime characters are designed to not look like a specific race that led to Dead or Alive fans asking why Kasumi looked like an alien in the movie, which would seem to suggest a pretty obvious uncomfortable situation of its own. Hrm, actually that's kind of an involved discussion on its own, isn't it?

 

[Nimzar]

The problem I had with the Dragonball and Airbender whitewashing is that if in the source material they had been Black rather than Asian it wouldn't have happend because of the studios fear of being called racist in the mainstream media, yet because they were Asian and are a smaller minority in the US than African American's it's ignored as only on forums did people really complain.

Well I thought the biggest deal with Dragonball and Airbender was that the movies just sucked. But also: no one's asian in the movies:

Spoiler: Nobody's Asian in the Movies

Oh, and PONIES! And I would totally be for a Samurai Pizza Cats episode. DO IT BOB!

 

[Russano_Greenstripe]

Man, Bob, you sure do love charging willy-first into those minefields, don't you?

Never let it be said that you're unafraid to say your mind, whether or not random people on the internet you'll probably never meet agree with you.

 

[M01070X]

so correct me if I'm wrong but he's basically saying we're responsible for the actions of people that no living person can remember, even when there were plenty of white people involved in the equal rights marches. I suppose he also thinks that modern day Germans are responsible for the holocaust or modern Christians for witch burnings. yes it was a tragedy and an atrocity but there's sod all we can do about it now and a troubled history is not a license to label any critics as racist (I'm looking at you Israel, yeah we see what you've been doing to Palestine for the last God knows how many years)

 

[MBE]

I must admit, it's nice to live in a country where "White guilt" is something that happens to Americans and in general to have had nothing to do with the whole slavery thing. I disliked the episode and I think all race swapping is pointless except when it's Samuel L. Jackson because he's awesome.

I suppose one can determine one's age by asking "What does God look like?" depending on whether the answer is "George Burns" or "Morgan Freeman".

 

[Zolem]

i am a huge AtLA fan, and I refused to watch the movie because of White 'Asians'. And this is before I learned the movie was BAD. I hated the racial swap in the DBZ movie before I learned it was bad. I was miffed about the Heimdal thing because I felt it was just there for political correctness. While I have see Thor and all of the Heimdal win, my concern still stands. See, when you make ONE of a huge casts of white people black, it just screams "so that we win politically correct brownie points", not "because he was a great actor". If that was the case, why weren't there more minorities? And don't point to the warriors three for it's recast, he's supposed to be Mongolian so that doesn't count. If they were really color blind in casting, there should have been more than one black Asguardian, but I didn't even see one as a walk on guard or a background figure. Yes he was a brilliant actor, but I still can't help but feel that this WASN'T the reason the studio cast him. I would love to be proven wrong. I would love to hear that he was cast because he blew away everybody else for that role. But Bob, we both no that more talented actors are sometimes passed over because another one looked more the part, or looked like the next tween heartthrob. And even after seeing the movie, I can't help but feel that it's just political correction in action instead of an appreciation of the mans talents.

 

[Raithnor]

In short, I really could not care less that this band of 'Vikings' included a character who was blatantly asian, or a gatekeeper whose genetic relation to northeastern Europe is little to none.

Hogun (The Asian guy from the Warriors Three) is actually supposed to be Asian in the comics. Stan Lee originally envisioned him being played by Charles Bronson. He's not an "Asgadian" but from another Realm/World that was more Mongolian-inspired. So this character wasn't the same case as Heimdall.

Having seen the movie, the actor playing Heimdall was extremely good in the part. He had a great voice and even better presence as the "Forbidding Guardian".

As long as it's interesting, I really don't care what they do. Last Airbender and Dragonball stunk so hard that the racial issues was the least of its problem.

 

[Saulkar]

While I do not disagree with most that Movie Bob said, I personally feel people of different ethnic races bring different things to the silver screen. Like James Bond would never be the same black nor would the BAD BOYS (Will Smith and Martin Laurence) if they were white, each one establishes a certain niche and alter things like their ethnic race while doable has repercussions on the established FEEL of that character. Like I said I would not want to see a White Blade or Spawn anymore than a Black Tony Stark or Superman. It fundamentally changes certain aspects of the character. Are all races the same in my opinion? No! Are they all equal and equally UNIQUE? FUCK YEAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Tarkand]

That being said, generally the gods of a particular nation or culture are expected to represent the culture that it stems from. From that standpoint, a black Heimdall seems as patently ludicrous as... say... a Japanese Utu(sumerian god, for those in need of clarification).

The key word here is "ludicrous." Not "offensive." If we cast a white Vishnu, that would be offensive. But while the land mass and genetic heritage both exist to a degree, there are no vikings left. There are still, however, people who adhere to hinduism, and India is still very much alive and kicking. The people who are actually offended by the casting are the problem. The people who simply think it's sort of silly to see a black Viking god are not entirely wrong to think so, no matter how well-acted the role is. If Chow Yun Fat played the role of Otto Von Bismark, or if Will Smith played the role of Mao Zedong, or if Freddy Prince Jr. played Othello, it'd be pretty silly too.

Sometimes good acting can allow you to get away with that sort of thing with a lot of people. Other times people simply can't see past certain visual oddities, and racist or not, a black viking is something of a visual oddity.

Very well put.

The whole 'Black Heimdall' thing isn't so much outrage for most people, as a bit of a 'huh?' followed by a shrug and lining up to go see the movie anyway.

But because of political correctness (yes yes, I know), you're afraid of being put in with the racists if you mention it.

 

[DearFilm]

So according to Bob, embracing double standards is the only real way to treat our popular culture's derth of interesting or complex minority characters. So changing a Norse god's race was preferable to creating a new character who is black. Thor had an entire Earth-based realm that was set in modern day America, and yet it was less culturally diverse than Asgard.
This strikes me as a kind of racism in and of itself. It is as though you do not trust minorities or those who write them to create a new and unique character on their own, so you have to "gift" them characters who have already been created. You are allowing them to "prove" their racial equity only through the appropriation of another race's character. It's like if a black African chef wanted to prove his worth in a French kitchen, but rather than let him make his own recipe, gave him a recipe already perfected by a white French cook. This betrays an astounding amount of condescention on the part of anyone who argues this way.
Honestly, some characters can be changed and can benefit from said change in the long run. I think Spider-Man as a young black kid from Queens makes a lot of sense and could be interesting because this is the real world, and that character is set to reflect modern ideas and experience. A Norse god, however, seems to resist this change. Instead, we should be trying to create characters grounded in a racial identity, so "appropriation" instead becomes "creation."

I do like parts of your arguement, but I think we'll have to wait a while for any new substantial ethnic characters in the realm of comics, and I tell you why. Many of the most famous comic book characters, the ones the cartoons and movies are made from, are very old, the youngest about thirty years. many of them predate even the earliest days of racial sensitivity, and DC has been known to have vocal racist (as in, edit background characters so that they were white, moved all black people in the universe he wrote in to a segragated island, racist) writing characters. When the first batches of ethnic characters came around in the 70's they were laughable stereotypes, such as Apache Cheif (who's power had nothing to do with his name or Native American garb), The Samurai (who's powers had nothing to do with his name or somewhat Japanese clothing), Black Vulcan (Insert smae bullshit here), and El Dorado (See before). Marvel did better at times, but they were still far from perfect. The Falcon, was a pimp or something at one point and Luke Cage was a jive-talking mercenary.

Now Marvel and DC both hold a major monopoly on the heroes we are introduced to. And it's highly unlikley that they are going to hire ethnic writers solely for the purpose of writing ethinic characters. While minorities could start their own publishing companies to write ethnic characters, that doesn't seem like an idea that is going to do well to me. So for now we're basically stuck with hopeing that whatever white guy (I'm sure they do occasionally have enthic writers, but for the most part, this) is writing are characters at the moment has some racial awareness, and isn't a secret member of the klan.

Now on the subject of Norse Gods, three points can be made. One, nobody is really worshipping Odin anymore, so how upset can we be? It's not like they made Budhha an Inuit Eskimo or turned Jesus gay? Two, Heimdall, to my knowledge, was something of a minor character, I had never heard of him before the controversy, and he only get's about ten minutes of screen time anyway. Three, the Norse gods, as depicted by Marvel, are ALIENS. does it really matter what their norse creators pictured them to be when we've already reduced them to aliens?

My issue, I suppose, is that I don't think we should be writing for minorities, I think we should just be writing them. Pandering and condescending are not the answer here. We need real characters, grounded and informed by their own racial identity, not by the supposed identity of those we want to buy their comics.

My concern about the gods is that they are now members not only of a godly pantheon, but of a historical canon. I actually wrote a massive essay about this for my personal web site. I would link to it, but I have been yelled about posting links on this forum before, so you can just click my name to go to the site and look for it.

As for the aliens thing... I often try not to think about that. It brings up all kinds of biological questions I don't think I have the answers to involving romances like those with Louis Lane and Jane Foster.

 

[sageoftruth]

Well, I think i owe the makers of Thor an apology. At the time, my problem with the casting choice was that it had suggested to me that the producers just wanted to cast someone and didn't care who it was. However, according to your input, it seem that the truth was that they simply found someone so good for the role that they couldn't let his race get in the way of their decision. If I find the time, I think I'll go see it.

 

[umbraticus]

ooo, touchy subject...
but you handeled it very well moviebob. and i completely agree with you

 

[Bobic]

My mind kind of wondered to SAMURI PIZZA CATS! OH YEAH!

Is it ok that I, a British person, find the casting of a nordic god as black a bit daft because I am without all that slave owning history guilt? (Although I am sure Idris is awesome in Thor as he is a great actor. I saw his BBC series Luther and he kicked ass, you should all go watch it now)

What? Unless your Scottish, yes you do. Where do you think early america learned every thing it did? Racist fairies?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Britain_and_Ireland

Bah, most of those slaves probably weren't black. But, for the sake of those few that were. I'll go with the 'why should I be blamed what some people who probably aren't even related to me did 200 years ago just because I happen to be the same ethnicity' argument. In fact, I'd say it's racist of you to act like it's my fault simply because I share the same ethnicity.

 

[messy]

well said Bob, well said. Our pop culture is about as white as a chalk factory and that needs to be fixed. Hell, I expect to get some flack in my writings since I have an Arab and an Asian

YOU HAVE A WHAT?! AT THE SAME TIME?!

OT: Best one ever Moviebob. Seriously you took the argument I've been trying to make (often with a lot more hand gestures) for ages and made it clear. Cheers Bob.

I am glad that he was good in the role as well because then know one can say "he just got it cause he was black"

 

[Corran006]

I have to say I was loosing a bit of faith In movie bob for the past few reviews he gave and the big picture.

This episode of the big pictured has restored a lot of my lost faith. He really understands why Black actors playing white actors is ok given our history of priivatge and power.

 

[Irony's Acolyte]

I'm okay with race-swapping in certain situations. When you hire an actor based on their skill rather than their race, I see that as a very good thing. I believe that the only way for us to reach social racial equality will be for us to stop worrying about race all together (even positive worrying). There are situations where I don't think we should do it, like when a character's race is integral with his personality (his race had to deal with oppression or prejudice) or they're trying to be historically accurate (I don't care how good the actor is, I don't want a black George Washington or a white Harriet Tubman).

So in the end am I okay with this particular example of race-swapping? It depends upon the reason. If they hired the guy because they felt he was a good actor and that he was the best choice for the role, then great, go for it. He isn't playing a Norse God, he's playing a character in a movie based off a comic book that is based loosely off an old dead religion. It's okay to have a little leeway. If they choose him just to get some token minority actor in (which it really doesn't sound like, from what I've heard he did a great job in his role) then no, I don't like their choice. Sure the world ain't perfect and we can't always solve everything, but sometimes you have to think in the long-term rather than the short term and solve the problem, not the symptoms.

 

[Dangerious P. Cats]

Good episode.

I really feel the need to point this out when the Airbender comparison comes up but there's a really big difference between changing the race of the entire cast of of a cannon and changing one member of the supporting cast.

 

[Eldarion]

One African tribe capture another African tribe and sold them to the Spaniards who treated the captured Africans worse than any slave holder.

That's all I really have to say about racism in history.

^This.

All this "slavery is the white man's fault" nonsense rings a little false considering that black people captured/enslaved/sold eachother as well, so they aren't really any better are they?

Not to imply that there wasn't a huge amount of wrongdoing on our side, a whole ton in fact. But it wasn't just whitey doing it.