The Big Picture: Skin Deep
- Thread starter MovieBob
- Start date
Two things:
1) Fine, I'm not suggesting that you qualify everything as your opinion, its an opinion show, and that's fine, you have some interesting and well thought out OPINIONS. My issue is: why call the show "the big picture"- a phrase used to mean "the wider truth" or "in reality". Then , why have a little sign off each week saying "that's the big picture" as in, that is all the truth. Really grinds me up. Especially since Bob (rightly) has a lot of respect amongst the escapist community, and people will believe what he says (I certainly do take his opinions on comics as fact, since i know nothing about it). I just wish the programme wasn't marketed as "here bob speaks the truth" when it is a very subjective opinions show. Thats it.
2) I agree, OK OK its a double standard, but when you consider that EVERYONE in the Thor pantheon is white, then it makes sense that they don't necessarily have to be in the movie. In original Norse mythology, the gods are all white because the NORDS are white. That makes sense. In the Thor comic book mythology, the Norse gods exist, but they aren't Nordic. They are essentially extra terrestrials. That doesn't mean they should all be white, since they aren't the idea of a load of white men, they are reality. Thus casting Heimdal as black is fine, especially since Elba was really bloody good in the film.
Then theres the Penny Arcade angle: pretty much the rest of the film is about white power, one character change is a drop in the ocean.
1) Fine, I'm not suggesting that you qualify everything as your opinion, its an opinion show, and that's fine, you have some interesting and well thought out OPINIONS. My issue is: why call the show "the big picture"- a phrase used to mean "the wider truth" or "in reality". Then , why have a little sign off each week saying "that's the big picture" as in, that is all the truth. Really grinds me up. Especially since Bob (rightly) has a lot of respect amongst the escapist community, and people will believe what he says (I certainly do take his opinions on comics as fact, since i know nothing about it). I just wish the programme wasn't marketed as "here bob speaks the truth" when it is a very subjective opinions show. Thats it.
2) I agree, OK OK its a double standard, but when you consider that EVERYONE in the Thor pantheon is white, then it makes sense that they don't necessarily have to be in the movie. In original Norse mythology, the gods are all white because the NORDS are white. That makes sense. In the Thor comic book mythology, the Norse gods exist, but they aren't Nordic. They are essentially extra terrestrials. That doesn't mean they should all be white, since they aren't the idea of a load of white men, they are reality. Thus casting Heimdal as black is fine, especially since Elba was really bloody good in the film.
Then theres the Penny Arcade angle: pretty much the rest of the film is about white power, one character change is a drop in the ocean.
This episode reminded me of a convo I had with my lady friend.
me: Sam Jackson was awesome as nick fury! But then again he's usually awesome in anything he plays.
her: Well yeah...Sam jackson is col and all, but Nick Fury is white they shouldn't have casted sam for that role.
me: You know Nick Fury was black in the Ultimate continuity right?
her: yeah, but this movie wasn't in the ultimates continuity....
me: yeah well it wasn't in the original continuity either so I dont see why you'd make that point >.>
Moral of the story, is every adaptation where you see a race swap shouldn't matter because its a new continuity entirely so they arent "changing the character" since its a new one to start with.
me: Sam Jackson was awesome as nick fury! But then again he's usually awesome in anything he plays.
her: Well yeah...Sam jackson is col and all, but Nick Fury is white they shouldn't have casted sam for that role.
me: You know Nick Fury was black in the Ultimate continuity right?
her: yeah, but this movie wasn't in the ultimates continuity....
me: yeah well it wasn't in the original continuity either so I dont see why you'd make that point >.>
Moral of the story, is every adaptation where you see a race swap shouldn't matter because its a new continuity entirely so they arent "changing the character" since its a new one to start with.
Well unfortunately, the fan theory of 'James Bond' just being a code name, a theory that would erase all continuity issues, issues with different actors and levels of seriousness and allow any type of race into the role... isn't canon. James Bond being an actual person is.googleback said:
While it could still work, granted, it would be much harder to pull off.
Yeah, I guess this is more or less an America thing. In here, in the northern part of Europe, nobody cares about the double standard all that much. The ones who complain here tend to complain exactly for the reason Bob thinks people don't complain there. Namely, that it's silly to alter something pointlessly like that in any direction, black or white.
There's never really been that kind of racial tension or a history of oppression here (in this part of Europe. I don't need to hear about colonialism, thank you very much), so I guess it's just hard to see the point all that clearly. Black actor or white actor (or actor of some other color) doesn't, in itself, matter here all that much.
So yeah, no white guilt, no real understanding of the issue.
There's never really been that kind of racial tension or a history of oppression here (in this part of Europe. I don't need to hear about colonialism, thank you very much), so I guess it's just hard to see the point all that clearly. Black actor or white actor (or actor of some other color) doesn't, in itself, matter here all that much.
So yeah, no white guilt, no real understanding of the issue.
Black people seem to be strangely popular in Hungary. Probably because Hungary never had too much to do with black people throughout history. Gypsy people... now that's a veeery different matter. Let's not go into that.
Oh, another thing crossed my mind: we seem to like Turks here, and I have no idea how it is the other way around, but this is pretty strange, considering the hundreds of years of warfare, occupation and general fuckery between the two groups. The same goes for the Germans (also occupied by them for a long time) and Russians (ditto occupied by): there doesn't seem to be any tension. Not so with Slovakia or Romania, so it isn't even just the skin color difference.
I guess people are just plain fucking insane.
Oh, another thing crossed my mind: we seem to like Turks here, and I have no idea how it is the other way around, but this is pretty strange, considering the hundreds of years of warfare, occupation and general fuckery between the two groups. The same goes for the Germans (also occupied by them for a long time) and Russians (ditto occupied by): there doesn't seem to be any tension. Not so with Slovakia or Romania, so it isn't even just the skin color difference.
I guess people are just plain fucking insane.
Well-said, sometimes a double-standard is the best way to at least partly balance out a greater problem.
yeah I guess your right. It feels like the character of bond has become more than just one man in a sort of Timelord way but I think at the end of the day they could get away with it. be a ballsy move. He would definitely play the shit out of it though! ;pMantonio said:
honestly i agreed pretty much completely but i would take 2(maybe 3) exceptions to what Bob said.
1. there should NOT be any race changing for anything based in historical characters. People in the past like JFK, Patton, MLK etc should clearly stay the race they were in real life.
2. If the character's race is an integral part of defining that specific character. i think Static from Static Shock is a good example of this.
if a character doesn't apply to the above rules than by all means change it. Just please do it in a reboot, legacy thing, or just in a way that isn't that makes it a plot hole.
funny i was reminded of this from the video...Green Lantern time fuckery that turns the Jon Steward-Black version into the older Hal Jordon-White version
on last thing...if say they changed Batman to a black character, i would think it adds a whole new depth to his motivation given his origin story, if anything it could potentially make the character or Batman/Bruce Wayn more interesting. Just a thought given the subject.
1. there should NOT be any race changing for anything based in historical characters. People in the past like JFK, Patton, MLK etc should clearly stay the race they were in real life.
2. If the character's race is an integral part of defining that specific character. i think Static from Static Shock is a good example of this.
if a character doesn't apply to the above rules than by all means change it. Just please do it in a reboot, legacy thing, or just in a way that isn't that makes it a plot hole.
funny i was reminded of this from the video...Green Lantern time fuckery that turns the Jon Steward-Black version into the older Hal Jordon-White version
on last thing...if say they changed Batman to a black character, i would think it adds a whole new depth to his motivation given his origin story, if anything it could potentially make the character or Batman/Bruce Wayn more interesting. Just a thought given the subject.
If Dragonball and Airbender's "whitewashed" actors had been any good, I think the outrage would have been toned down.
The fact that they replaced them with shitty white actors to appeal to American audiences... I'm ok with Goku being white... IF the actor was chosen to do the job because he's a good actor. If he's picked because the director was looking for an "appealing" look, then fail.
That's why the Thor outrage seems all the more whiney. They didn't "blackwash" Heimdall just to appeal to the black community. They chose a competent actor to play the role, who happened to be black.
Now if they'd picked someone like Tyler Perry to play Heimdall... then the outrage would have been fully justified.
As to the discussion of "Slavery doesn't exist anymore, so double standards shouldn't apply"... The double standard applies today because we are still seeing the cultural, economic, and societal after-shocks of slavery. Same as in Canada. We apply a double standard to "aboriginals" because up until 30 years ago we were still oppressing them in some form, and we still see the effects of that today. The double standard is a half-assed attempt to skew the needle back to "fair" by over-compensating for the fact that for centuries it was completely unfair to one side. Now it's only mildly inconvenient to the other side...
The fact that they replaced them with shitty white actors to appeal to American audiences... I'm ok with Goku being white... IF the actor was chosen to do the job because he's a good actor. If he's picked because the director was looking for an "appealing" look, then fail.
That's why the Thor outrage seems all the more whiney. They didn't "blackwash" Heimdall just to appeal to the black community. They chose a competent actor to play the role, who happened to be black.
Now if they'd picked someone like Tyler Perry to play Heimdall... then the outrage would have been fully justified.
As to the discussion of "Slavery doesn't exist anymore, so double standards shouldn't apply"... The double standard applies today because we are still seeing the cultural, economic, and societal after-shocks of slavery. Same as in Canada. We apply a double standard to "aboriginals" because up until 30 years ago we were still oppressing them in some form, and we still see the effects of that today. The double standard is a half-assed attempt to skew the needle back to "fair" by over-compensating for the fact that for centuries it was completely unfair to one side. Now it's only mildly inconvenient to the other side...
Absolutely agree with you here Bob, I suppose another point to raise is that canon (for works of fiction based on other works of fiction, God help us) is not sacred and it's quite irritating to find people who think that it is. Imagine if Last Airbender or Dragonball had been good? With stellar performances from the leads? We're in a whole new ball game where the best actor got the role and did the best job. That's how I've always looked at it: best actor should get the role because if they put in a good performance no-one can argue the casting choice because the film or play or TV show worked. I've seen all-female Shakespeare, did it ruin the "canon"? Did it buggery. Because great actresses put on a great show and the audience lapped it up.
While obviously theatre has more academic approaches to transvestism or racial subversion of playtexts I refuse to believe a great actor of any race should be refused roles based solely on their appearance, regardless of the source material. Black James Bond? If he's a good actor, why the hell not? Ian Fleming won't be writing his screenplay, and Lee, Leiber and Kirby certainly didn't have a hand in the making of this Thor film. Branagh gets it, why can't others?
I also see the problem with my earlier point that good performances would have changed Airbender and Dragonball and while that would certainly be true, there's no denying that the weight of history bears down heavily on "From Black/Asian/Latin/Other to Caucasian" racial changes. They're definitely less acceptable than "From Caucasian" and that's just a simple fact of life. What I will say is that if you're going to go with a Black Superman or another similar move, make sure you're doing it because the actor will be great, not as a token gesture, because then it makes a mockery of the colour-blind agenda and compounds the seige mentality of the closet racists who hide behind "canon" as an excuse to blast minority casting choices...
While obviously theatre has more academic approaches to transvestism or racial subversion of playtexts I refuse to believe a great actor of any race should be refused roles based solely on their appearance, regardless of the source material. Black James Bond? If he's a good actor, why the hell not? Ian Fleming won't be writing his screenplay, and Lee, Leiber and Kirby certainly didn't have a hand in the making of this Thor film. Branagh gets it, why can't others?
I also see the problem with my earlier point that good performances would have changed Airbender and Dragonball and while that would certainly be true, there's no denying that the weight of history bears down heavily on "From Black/Asian/Latin/Other to Caucasian" racial changes. They're definitely less acceptable than "From Caucasian" and that's just a simple fact of life. What I will say is that if you're going to go with a Black Superman or another similar move, make sure you're doing it because the actor will be great, not as a token gesture, because then it makes a mockery of the colour-blind agenda and compounds the seige mentality of the closet racists who hide behind "canon" as an excuse to blast minority casting choices...
Love the line about double standards being pretty much the only standards that there are.
For me, personally, I find that the racial casting issues really just depend on whether or not the characters race is actually intrinsic to the role. I can't think of many roles where that is the case unless you're talking about specific period films where the races of characters are fairly defined simply by fact. And no, Thor isn't a period film just because it's supposedly about Norse gods.. it's a fantasy/sci fi/comic book movie built around made up characters that never really existed. Sorry, comic book `fans.`
In fact, I actually think that sort of reverse casting could add new aspects to the role if actually taken into account in the scripting and story creation. I`d find, for example, a black spiderman, as was talked about prior to the finalized casting of the new spiderman reboot, intriguing.
For me, personally, I find that the racial casting issues really just depend on whether or not the characters race is actually intrinsic to the role. I can't think of many roles where that is the case unless you're talking about specific period films where the races of characters are fairly defined simply by fact. And no, Thor isn't a period film just because it's supposedly about Norse gods.. it's a fantasy/sci fi/comic book movie built around made up characters that never really existed. Sorry, comic book `fans.`
In fact, I actually think that sort of reverse casting could add new aspects to the role if actually taken into account in the scripting and story creation. I`d find, for example, a black spiderman, as was talked about prior to the finalized casting of the new spiderman reboot, intriguing.
If I may play devil's advocate for a minute...
The sad truth is that most anime characters are portrayed with overt Caucasian characteristics; most evident is the white skin. My theory is that this is a remnant of the Meji era, where the nation, so committed to become united after centuries of fragmented nation-states warred against eachother, that they emulated themselves after Europe and America to the letter. So when Universal decides to portray Goku with a white actor, it can be argued that it's not race-baiting but flowing authorial intent. Goku and most of the main characters of the Dragonball series have Caucasian features.
Does this excuse them from not taking the opportunity to make a more enlightened decision to portray said characters as Asian? It doesn't. It just shows the ugly truth that creators themselves are just as responsible if not more so of race-lifting than the creators themselves. When groups and individuals protest the fact that Warner Bros is casting the role of Tetsuo to white actors and not a single Asian actor, I'd like for them to take a good look at Tetsuo and tell me that outside the wild hair, he doesn't look white. It's sad and it's ugly, but sometimes race-lifting is authorial intent.
This, however, doesn't excuse race-lifting an explicitly stated or portrayed minority character as white. One of the worst parts of The Last Airbender is how M. Night Shamylan, who should know better as an Asian-American, decides to bow into corporate pressure to cast the clearly Asian characters as white. There are so few minority characters in mainstream fiction that when Hollywood decides to race-lift, it further continues the ugly misconception that the mainstream audience can't empathize with a protagonist unless he (rarely she) is Caucasian and heterosexual. When Branagh decides to cast a black actor as a white god, yes it's a double-standard but it's looking at a molehill and comparing it to a mountain.
P.S: Reeves shouldn't be cast as Spike Spiegel: find an Israeli actor to play him. Spiegel's a Jewish last name, he carries an Israeli-made gun, and he's a total badass. I'd be a perfect match.
The sad truth is that most anime characters are portrayed with overt Caucasian characteristics; most evident is the white skin. My theory is that this is a remnant of the Meji era, where the nation, so committed to become united after centuries of fragmented nation-states warred against eachother, that they emulated themselves after Europe and America to the letter. So when Universal decides to portray Goku with a white actor, it can be argued that it's not race-baiting but flowing authorial intent. Goku and most of the main characters of the Dragonball series have Caucasian features.
Does this excuse them from not taking the opportunity to make a more enlightened decision to portray said characters as Asian? It doesn't. It just shows the ugly truth that creators themselves are just as responsible if not more so of race-lifting than the creators themselves. When groups and individuals protest the fact that Warner Bros is casting the role of Tetsuo to white actors and not a single Asian actor, I'd like for them to take a good look at Tetsuo and tell me that outside the wild hair, he doesn't look white. It's sad and it's ugly, but sometimes race-lifting is authorial intent.
This, however, doesn't excuse race-lifting an explicitly stated or portrayed minority character as white. One of the worst parts of The Last Airbender is how M. Night Shamylan, who should know better as an Asian-American, decides to bow into corporate pressure to cast the clearly Asian characters as white. There are so few minority characters in mainstream fiction that when Hollywood decides to race-lift, it further continues the ugly misconception that the mainstream audience can't empathize with a protagonist unless he (rarely she) is Caucasian and heterosexual. When Branagh decides to cast a black actor as a white god, yes it's a double-standard but it's looking at a molehill and comparing it to a mountain.
P.S: Reeves shouldn't be cast as Spike Spiegel: find an Israeli actor to play him. Spiegel's a Jewish last name, he carries an Israeli-made gun, and he's a total badass. I'd be a perfect match.
I just want to say that while I had a bit of a "well that is weird" reaction to his casting it accentually felt really natural in the movie. The director didn't have any of his actors try to change their accents which meant that the Norse gods (i.e the ones you would assume to be Scandinavian) didn't just include a black man, but also an Asian guy, an Australian guy, and a British guy the last two being the rather central parts of Thor and Odin themselves. Now the British accent has long represented "foreign accent translated into English" hence why they play so many Germans. The point is, their all the "wrong" race, so who cares.
And while this doesn't deal with the issue in the comics, if Heindal spent all of his time guarding the rainbow bridge then the Scandinavians who adopted the Asgaurdians as gods would have never seen him. You could even joke about them giving Heindal that job because the Scandinavians, being from northern europe, would probably trust people that looked like them more than someone who seemed to come from a completely different continent.
And while this doesn't deal with the issue in the comics, if Heindal spent all of his time guarding the rainbow bridge then the Scandinavians who adopted the Asgaurdians as gods would have never seen him. You could even joke about them giving Heindal that job because the Scandinavians, being from northern europe, would probably trust people that looked like them more than someone who seemed to come from a completely different continent.
Funny how 'historical precedence' immediately gets equated by stupid white bigots as 'SINS OF THE FATHER' as they desperately try to rationalize their own biases and dismiss the concept of white privilege. Funny and sad, obviously. Stupid is as stupid does.