The Big Picture: The Devil You Know - Part I

Clankenbeard

Clerical Error
Mar 29, 2009
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Bible Translations According to Bob:
Greek - Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure
Roman - A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum
Medieval Western European - Monty Python's The Holy Grail

I cannot find fault with any interpretations.
 

Bara_no_Hime

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Sep 15, 2010
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SeeDarkly_Xero said:
Well, Wikipedia is many things, but it isn't a "seminal peer-reviewed" source. It's an aggregator at best.
Of course, if he were to tell us he researched it directly from Wikipedia (and I would be a bit surprised and disappointed if he did) the point would be moot.
Generally, on non-political or science articles, Wikipedia is the most accurate encyclopedia in the world.

Now, as you say, encyclopedias are not "seminal peer-reviewed" - but you need a basic understanding of a topic before you can make use of more esoteric sources.

Having done a lot of research on this topic on Wikipedia (and then gone to more detailed primary sources therefrom), I can say that, on the topic of Christian mythology, Wikipedia is quite detailed and reflects a good deal of current research on the matter.

Science (particularly "disputed" aspects of it) and politics are the areas where you have to be careful of vandalism.
 

daxterx2005

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Dec 19, 2009
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I think my favorite devil in media would have to be the devil from Tenacious D and the Pick of Destiny.
 

lowkey_jotunn

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Bbleds said:
Yes, it is interesting how the idea how the christian Bible merely mentions a figure and places that have been translated as hell. I think the most interesting pop culture use was Neil Gaiman's Sandman. The "Devil" is actually made of three figures, Lucifer, Beezelebub, and Azael, seemingly drawing from the different figures mentioned in religious writings. And hell wasn't necessarily a place created for punishment, but perhaps a necessary creation by people for people believing they need punishment for their guilt.
Interesting nerd-culture fact, in regards to your last bit there.

The movie Dogma mentioned a similar interpretation for Hell. Per the movie, Hell was originally just nothingness for Angels. For those who'd been in the presence of God, to be alone and without Him was punishment enough. But then humans started with the "we are not worthy, we deserve punishment and fire and brimstone," and so it came to pass.

But maybe I'm jumping the gun here ... Bob will be covering current media references next week.
 

NaramSuen

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Jun 8, 2010
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Therumancer said:
Simply put with all of the things busted over the years that have been confirmed real, it actually seems even more plausible that it could have been going on as far back as the 1980s especially seeing as some of the big child-porn players were apparently active back then.
The book was published in 1980 and the events which Michelle "recalled" during her psychiatric sessions started when she was 5 years old in 1955. The book is bunk and attempting to tie it to modern day sex tourism is a stretch at best.

Also, I would like to see what evidence there is of "all the non-Christians basically killing and skinning people and wearing them like capes, building shrines out of skulls, murdering people on stone slabs, and whatever else." I am not saying that these pre-Christian people were awesome, I just haven't read anything that suggests they were any worse than the Christians that followed them.
 

Darxide

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Dec 14, 2009
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The TL;DW version: The devil is completely made up.

Not a lot I didn't know already, although seeing it all together and given a shared context makes for some interesting insights.
 

leviadragon99

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Jun 17, 2010
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So... a giant collection of fanfiction used to near-literally demonise people and religious iconography of other faiths and anyone the church didn't like the look of... yeah that sounds about right.
 

Polarity27

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Jul 28, 2008
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bor3ds0ul said:
Is it alright if I ask for links to sites or books with more information about the origin of the Christian devil? It seems like a very interesting topic of study.
Wikipedia isn't a bad place to *start*, but there's plenty of good information out there in book form if you're willing to delve deeper. Here's my recommendation list (I'm actually researching this myself at the moment, so this is also *my* reading list), all of which can be found on Amazon and some can probably be found at your local library (or obtained by inter-library loan):

"The Old Enemy" by Neil Forsyth (I think this is the best of the list, but it's also a bit pricey at around $30 used. It's academic, but Forsyth's writing is accessible and engaging, and his research is fantastic. I'm reading this now.)

"The Origin of Satan" by Elaine Pagels (She veers from the central topic, and covers a lot more early Christian history than simply focusing on Satan, but still useful and valuable context.)

"The Birth of Satan: Tracing the Devil's Biblical Roots" by T.J. Wray and Gregory Mobley (I haven't read this one yet, but I've seen it recommended. I think the focus is more overtly religious here than in the other books, but it still looks pretty good on paper.)

"Devil: Perceptions of Evil from Antiquity to Primitive Christianity" by Jeffrey Burton Russell (This is actually part one of a four part series (Satan: The Early Christian Tradition, Lucifer: The Devil in the Middle Ages, and Mephistopheles: The Devil in the Modern World are the other three parts) and is quite good, and has the advantage of being inexpensive (~$3 per book, plus shipping) in the used editions. The only drawback vs. the Forsyth is that they were written almost 30 years ago and some of the modern material is dated and some of the historic material lags behind current research. But they're a great starting point if you want to read further after Wikipedia!)
 

Polarity27

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Therumancer said:
Err, well a couple of corrections.

For starters the whole "Michelle Remembers" thing tends to come down to whether you believe in regression hypnosis, the basic idea that a trained psychiatrist, can use hypnosis to access your deep memories and allow you to remember, or convey, things that you do not consciously remember without it. The idea being that pretty much everything you see, think, or experience is stored there somewhere, even if you can't always access it.
This isn't a matter of belief, this is a matter of science, and memory doesn't work that way. The "tape recorder" notion of memory has been thoroughly debunked, and the idea that false memories can be planted has been conclusively proven.

What's more "Satanism" for a lot of people generally speaking comes down to fancy ways for them to justify sociopathic behavior, ...yeah, I'd imagine there have been plenty of abusers who got organized (like we see busted in kiddie porn production rings and such) donned satanic trappings for fun/atmosphere and pretty much did their thing.
There has never been a scintilla of evidence of any such thing. If you have such evidence, please bring it forth and the FBI would love to hear it-- you know, having spent scads of taxpayer money investigating this nonsense and finding it all to be bunk. Are there some genuinely unpleasant people who identify as Satanists? Yes, just like there are genuinely unpleasant people who identify as Christians, and any other religion on earth. (Oddly, I've seen people trying to hang all manner of unpleasant behavior on Satanists, but I never see complaints about Satanists being cozy with Neo-Nazis-- this is the thing that has most repulsed *me*, as a Satanist, about organized Satanism.) But this molestation-Satanism connection you're so gleefully speculating about doesn't exist, and IMO it's not okay to be so credulous about a thing that has cost innocent people their livelihood, their children, and in some cases (West Memphis Three, for example) their freedom.

As far as the whole pagan/neo-pagan thing, one thing I have to keep reminding people of is that according to strict Christianity there are only two real forces, god and the devil.
I don't think anyone forgets your theology, they simply don't allow your theology to dictate facts. Fact: Neo-Pagan religions don't worship Satan. That your religion would like to conflate every other god who has existed in human history with Satan doesn't change the facts, they simply change how *you* view them.

Arguably it could justify torturing people until they "found god", and then killing them (to send them to heaven before further temptation) as being a humanitarian act by it's own standards.
Could, and has in the past and continues to do so today.

I'm also a big believer that a lot of the pagans were generally speaking not nice people themselves. Us European barbarians wound up freaking out the Romans with the crap we got up to, and really that is what the Christians were still dealing with after the fall of Rome. Basically the situation probably wasn't helped by all the non-Christians basically killing and skinning people and wearing them like capes, building shrines out of skulls, murdering people on stone slabs, and whatever else. You generally weren't dealing with a bunch of peaceful "wise women" dancing in the moonlight and nothing else. That sells well to the new age crowd, but when you start looking back at the crap barbarians were up to back then, and understand there really wasn't a dividing line, it paints a different picture. Every once in a while you see shows on TV where they show caves full of bashed in skulls, depictions of bloody rituals, and similar things, not to mention going off about how the Vikings went around ripping people's rib cages open to make "the blood eagle" as a sign of appreciation to Odin (a pagan deity) for a long time. So really there was kind of an element of "you kill our people horribly, we kill yours" at the end of the day though the Christians by and large won, and did so by killing or converting all of their rivals.
And your source for all this luridness is... TV shows. Please read some actual history, would you? I'd be happy to provide actual scholarly recommendations on whatever aspect you'd like. Humans, though, have been human throughout the course of our existence. Any group that has held power has done both heinous things and admirable things. Arbitrarily deciding that your group is "civilized" and the rest are "barbarians" is silly, harmful, and in many of its manifestations, more than a little racist. At least you acknowledge that killing and forcible conversion is a thing your religion has done-- do you also acknowledge that coerced conversion is a thing it continues to do? Or acknowledge that modern polytheists aren't raiding, skinning, or blood-eagling anybody?
 

UniversalRonin

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Nov 14, 2012
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Didn't either the BBC or Channel 4 do a documentary last year where they looked at the evolution of the devil through art work? Where he went from this almost beautiful sorrowful angel to a snarling beastman? I think it was called something similar to Painting the Devil, The Devil in art, how the devil was made, ya know, it was one of those kinda titles. Wish I could remember it. It goes brilliantly alongside this.
 

Monsterfurby

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Mar 7, 2008
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Is it just me, or is it really impossible to tell this (if you don't know the background) from an episode about the evolution of an iconic comic book villain?
 

lastoflancas

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Aug 17, 2009
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I'm sorry. What you wrote as a disclaimer, I read it as "Get ready to get your jimmies rustled".

Luckily (for me), mine didn't :D
 

blurredplacebo

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Jan 25, 2010
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If you liked the ground covered here please watch this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUPE0CilXOw

It's a fascinating doco that goes into more depth than Bob does when covering how the western concept of the devil has evolved through time.
 

Iceklimber

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Feb 5, 2013
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The devil of school shows in many forums during this video:

History, knowledge, education.

Begone, foul fiend!
 

Barciad

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Apr 23, 2008
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leviadragon99 said:
So... a giant collection of fanfiction used to near-literally demonise people and religious iconography of other faiths and anyone the church didn't like the look of... yeah that sounds about right.
It's not every day that 'Dante's Inferno' and 'Paradise Lost' get dismissed as fanfiction.
 

suitepee7

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Dec 6, 2010
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bor3ds0ul said:
Is it alright if I ask for links to sites or books with more information about the origin of the Christian devil? It seems like a very interesting topic of study.
first point of reference kinda goes without saying, the bible. then skim through http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil_in_Christianity and check out some of the references at the bottom of the page, which should point you towards more detailed sources
 

Diddy_Mao

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Jan 14, 2009
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bor3ds0ul said:
Is it alright if I ask for links to sites or books with more information about the origin of the Christian devil? It seems like a very interesting topic of study.
I can't speak to any of the texts cited in the video, but I have a book by Gerald Messadi called "A History of the Devil."
It does a rather good job of detailing the nemesis figure as it appears in global religions and the impact of modern society. It's a good read if you're interested on the subject matter.


http://www.amazon.com/A-History-Devil-Gerald-Messadi%C3%A9/dp/156836198X