The Big Picture: This Episode is Part of the Problem

[daxterx2005]

I never heard of the mystery box...?
Its just a prop right? Like a figure of speech?
He doesn't actually lock things in a cartoony looking riddler box does he?

 

[Strain42]

For example: Captain America: The Winter Soldier. I would've been gobsmacked to learn the identity of the Winter Soldier while watching the movie, but instead, it was given away, by me reading the film synopsis. Why?

To be fair, that wasn't really supposed to be a secret or a big reveal, not to the audience anyways. I'm not even saying this because of stuff like this being a really old comic book arc or it being super easy to look up on Google.

I mean the Cast List gives this away. Sebastian Stan is one of the highest names on the cast list. I think he's right after Chris Evans and Scarlett Johansson, and since Sebastian Stan was also in the first movie...well yeah.

I get being disappointed, and I am genuinely sorry to hear that you were, but you were disappointed by something that wasn't really a secret. That would've been like being upset at a Spiderman film because you didn't know Peter Parker was going to end up being Spiderman.

Captain America had other stuff going for it that would have sucked to be spoiled on, but I don't think the identity of the Winter Soldier was one of them.

 

[Brian Tams]

I never heard of the mystery box...?
Its just a prop right? Like a figure of speech?
He doesn't actually lock things in a cartoony looking riddler box does he?

Have you ever seen the TV Show Lost? Abrams wrote Lost, and that's where his Mystery Box approach first gained attention.

If you haven't seen Lost, in its most simple stages it was about a group of people who survived a plane crash on an island. While exploring, they come across a mysterious vault; no explanation as to what it was, just that it was a vault and they wanted to get in.

Cue about 20 episodes of them running around in circles trying to find a way in, and when they finally do get in, the reveal was actually a very big let down (a let down that came with another mystery box attached thankyouveryfuckingmuchjj).

That's the mystery box in action. Abrams uses a huge lack of information about a project or specific plot point in order to get people buzzing about what it might be without actually ever giving them a starting place. So you have people going off on these wild theories. While it works wonders in terms of getting people to discuss your property, it rarely leaves many people satisfied with the reveal.

The thing is, though, is that the above works for TV Shows. I have yet to see Abrams translate the mystery box to the cinema successfully. It just doesn't work. Cinema hype and TV Show hype are two entirely different beasts.

 

[krompo]

For example: Captain America: The Winter Soldier. I would've been gobsmacked to learn the identity of the Winter Soldier while watching the movie, but instead, it was given away, by me reading the film synopsis. Why?

To be fair, that wasn't really supposed to be a secret or a big reveal, not to the audience anyways. I'm not even saying this because of stuff like this being a really old comic book arc or it being super easy to look up on Google.

I mean the Cast List gives this away. Sebastian Stan is one of the highest names on the cast list. I think he's right after Chris Evans and Scarlett Johansson, and since Sebastian Stan was also in the first movie...well yeah.

I get being disappointed, and I am genuinely sorry to hear that you were, but you were disappointed by something that wasn't really a secret. That would've been like being upset at a Spiderman film because you didn't know Peter Parker was going to end up being Spiderman.

Captain America had other stuff going for it that would have sucked to be spoiled on, but I don't think the identity of the Winter Soldier was one of them.

I disagree. While am not a big comic fan, I am generally aware of what is going on (I visit comicvine a couple times a week, I follow the movie rumours) and I certainly have more comic knowledge than the average movie goer and I didn't know who he was. The vast majority of viewers (at least 95%) will not have known his identity.

Also, is this what the internet really thinks of Abrams? Sites like RT clearly have limited usefulness and are overused by many but it does say something that he has never had a rotten film or even been close for that matter.

 

[Darth_Payn]

Well, it was good of Bob to explain himself about complaining about certain movies, but I hope he doesn't do that again. I remember each time Michael Bay does a Transformers movie, he deliberately released fake news to get confused with any real leaks.

 

[anonymity88]

For example: Captain America: The Winter Soldier. I would've been gobsmacked to learn the identity of the Winter Soldier while watching the movie, but instead, it was given away, by me reading the film synopsis. Why?

Because its a 9 year old twist which would be revealed by just looking at the case. It's the type of spoiler you just can't keep secret from those who actually look into it.

He's right. I don't even read Captain America comics and I knew about it... Ha

 

[Diddy_Mao]

Spoiler

These days Star Wars is damaged goods for a lot of old fans of the franchise and I don't know that those old fans can or will let go of their bias when any new information ekes out about the story. Given the shaky attitude towards the series I think any director would likely keep their shit under wraps on this project for fear of negative press poisoning the well before any context is given to any released or leaked information.

And I can't say I'd blame them. In just the past few months I've seen folks dismiss the entirety of X-Men Days of Future Past because they don't like to design of Quicksilver, or that Godzilla is going to fail because the new design is too bulky.

Unfortunately Abrahms has a history with this kind of secret keeping malarkey as promotional tool so everyone now presumes that what could likely be director or studio apprehension is now calculated secret keeping.

 

[ColdinT]

I am so sick of JJ Abrams. I got burned after being excited to see Super 8, the ending to LOST was such a major disappointment, and whatever good will was gained from the first Star Trek was trashed from Star Trek 2 and that stupid role-reversal KHAAAN!

In my opinion, JJ Abrams works okay (not great) as a director, but someone should keep the writing far away from him, and honestly give him very little control over the direction. Let him set up the shots and use his lens flare and that's it.

 

[Something Amyss]

Thing is JJ is in full control of what gets released to journalists so he might as well use it to build excitement for the movie. He can save all the good stuff for when the movie is released, but he can still release the odd picture, design or set photos. This builds excitement for the movie among fans, gets them wanting more.

You mean like when he controlled the media and told us that Benedict Cumberbatch totally wasn't Khan, gave him a different name to hide that he was Khan, and hid all of the media that would reveal it was Khan, but everyone assumed he was Khan and he turned out to be Khan?

Or how set leaks managed to show up despite all the control?

Yeah, this is a shitty way to build intrigue and interest.

For example: Captain America: The Winter Soldier. I would've been gobsmacked to learn the identity of the Winter Soldier while watching the movie, but instead, it was given away, by me reading the film synopsis. Why?

You mean you wanted them to keep secret the identity of a guy whose identity is not secret in the comics, has been around for a decade since his return, and is being played by the same guy who played Bucky in the previous movie?

The main reason they "gave it away" is because they didn't have any good reason to think it was something they were "giving away." We've even had non-comic fans say they knew that.

The thing is, though, is that the above works for TV Shows. I have yet to see Abrams translate the mystery box to the cinema successfully. It just doesn't work. Cinema hype and TV Show hype are two entirely different beasts.

Part of the problem there is that Abrams doesn't seem to plan very far ahead and a movie is released all in one part. It's hard to build the kind of mystery that comes from very blatantly pulling the answer out of your ass at the last moment. And you can't daisy chain them as well.

 

[tangoprime]

Bob, please, please, PLEASE, do some kind of video involving Big Trouble in Little China, or maybe John Carpenter / Kurt Russell episode, or an episode on classic Actor/Director pairings that just worked. Anyway, man I loved that movie way back when. Seeing that little bit in this episode made me like you a little more.

 

[shteev]

I might have wanted to read this thread, you know. Why is everyone intent on spoiling Captain America:The Winter Soldier in it?

 

[jFr[e]ak93]

i feel this topic didnt deserve it own episode

Agreed.

OT - I think JJ does the mystery box thing wrong. What was done with Inception (the first 2 trailers at least) is how to do it. Show off some flashy stuff from the start of the movie, give some plot points. Boom, excitement. Then when you see the film you realize you only saw about 20 minutes into it. The other 2 hours are all new and fresh.

Iron Man 3 did a decent (though not great) job at keeping the main meat of the movie down while building hype. The teaser for Godzilla, same deal.

 

[Brockyman]

This Episode is Part of the Problem

MovieBob thinks we're in to a really rough lead up to the new Star Wars films - and it's because of JJ Abrams.

Watch Video

I think you've hit the nail on the head here.

I agree with what JJ is trying to do as well, keeping some mystery to the movie other than a trailer and a movie poster like the old days. I also think the internet press has much of the blame because they go "too far". Scripts shouldn't be leaked online, people shouldn't follow actors to movie shoots, and I've seen more spy work go into finding out movie info than the NSA in finding terrorists.

He really does need to take his cues from Marvel (which they are Disney too, Kevin Feige could just walk across the hall). They give out some facts/teasers/images/ect, just enough to make people talk.

JJ has one advantage b/c no one knows what he's going to do (where there a SO MANY Marvel books it's hard to pull out any new ideas). I think that was why they clarified the Expanded Universe isn't pure canon, to allow them to use elements of the EU without people being able to predict what they are, and "surprise" people with it

BUT he has to do something to build good will with the fandom. So many people are so pissed (some overly so) about the prequels that he needs to show he isn't going to "Lucus" it up.

Thanks

 

[Brockyman]

i feel this topic didnt deserve it own episode

He explained why at the start of the episode.. that there was a lot of buzz about Star Wars news on May 4th and it just didn't come to pass, and he probably didn't want to waste the footage he gathered to make the episode.

I was interesting to hear his take, and not to demonize JJ for at least trying to be sincere on his mystery box

 

[Ickabod]

I think that I problem that gets created now using the "mystery box" stuff is that it leaves the internet free to spin it's own ideas about what is coming, and the evolution of those ideas becomes bigger and grander than the actual plot of the movie. Hence by the time you actually get to see the movie, you've built up such expectation about what the movie is going to be that when you actually see what it is, you can't help but be let down.

I agree with Bob that Abrams is just trying to keep that old feeling of going to the movies and building excitement, but in this day and age of social media and 24/7 news coverage, you can't do that. You can't simply fight what exists today, you have to embrace it and play the game along with everyone else. Keeping expectations in line with reality.

To be honest the Episode 7 is going to stink. I'm sure it will be serviceable, but it won't be exceptional by any means. I'm really worried that they are trying to do too much fan service, meaning you'll get what Star Trek 2 was, a good movie, that tried to copy a great movie.

 

[Hungry Donner]

If there's a movie or game I'm really interested in, I try to avoid news about it so I don't set unrealistic expectations.

while this sort of decision has to be personal, it's easy for studios/publishers to do their part to support this - it's called not saying much, and not making a big deal about that fact. It's a shame JJ has only figured out the first part. Hopefully he'll eventually realize how counter-productive it is to hope around in a cape about how mysterious he's being.


I have to say, the more open development can be tremendous fun - but the final product usually doesn't match the ride, let alone the expectations that were set. Still, I'm glad I'm able to put the blinders on, it's likely the reason I was able to enjoy Deus Ex 3 so much . . . and also why Theif 4 sucking was never more than a "meh" moment despite being a huge fan of the originals.

 

[SeeDarkly_Xero]

"...The constant endless cycle of film-geek media speculation goosed by the occasional strategic injection of actual news, i.e. the way Marvel Studios likes to engage the press, is what makes a lot of internet movie journalists able to file the ever increasing number of stories necessary to keep roofs over their heads..."

This is a point of actual credit to Marvel Comics & Marvel Studios for the way they engage media: When they have something worthy of reporting, they give the news something to report. Simple. Honest.

The counter of this is why DC Comics, WB films, and other off-site Marvel properties tend to look ridiculous by comparison and fail to garner respect or praise over all... because they manufacture news reactionary to popular culture interests or competitor news. It's disingenuous. It's doesn't respect the audience they are attempting to reach. It comes off a lot of the time as petty and childish. "Oh that thing the other guy is doing? Look at at us, we're doing that! Don't you like us too?"
It almost never adds to the content of what they produce in a positive or interesting way and usually ends up detracting from it.

It seems like Abrahms has an entirely different problem in the manner he engages the media... but perhaps under the Disney banner, if his doesn't needlessly meddle in the PR, maybe they can share with him the methods that have made Marvel's outreach so much more appealing.
But nah... Abrahms is probably going to meddle. It's what Fox taught him to do.