The Big Picture: This Episode is Part of the Problem

Callate

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I don't think Abrahms is "averageness personified" so much as he's been successful enough in his various exploits to effectively become the middle ground. And Hollywood, it loves itself some middle ground. It's where all the consumers stand.

After Lost, though, I'm pretty much fed up with "Mystery Box" shenanigans. It's one thing to want to preserve the surprises that are in a work; it's quite another to raise questions just to try to raise cliffhanger-style investment while failing to actually work out how those questions actually fold into the story.
 

Murphyrmurphy0

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I for one remember a time when information about a movie was in large part geared to get you excited about the movie. Not to inform you about about the movie. For example you might hear a catch phrase in a trailer, you've heard it a hundred times before the movie is released, but upon actually viewing the film that one particular line is different. a different camera angle, an alternative take on the reading, completely different context from how it was presented to you in advertising. I for one take this moment as a breath of fresh air, an active nudge on my opinion towards suspension of disbelief. I can do this because it allows me to dismiss the advertising as advertising. Take the days of future past as an example ( i'd say spoilers, but the fact that this isn't a spoiler is the point) I watched a trailer where they "revealed" that magneto was held under the pentagon, and we see him raise and drop a baseball stadium. What I saw, I have no doubt, will be identical to what I see in the film. This isn't your two favorite characters spouting a cool line just before they start charging at each other only to have the shot end a moment before they contact each other. Advertisement should give you a sense, not of what the movie actually is, but a sense of WHY YOU WANT TO SEE IT. I see magneto lifting the stadium, cut, I can't wait to see what he's doing, where this goes, why he's doing it. On the opposite I only see the stadium fall, cut, I can't wait to see why how and who made this all happen. Giving me both, I can't wait to see those special effects???
Sure why is still there, but that's a race that's advertises the start, shows the finish, and tells you to come see the race. To me all this does is imply a lack of confidence in your film. Even movies that are doing this properly still have a lapse in discipline when it comes to keeping the reveal in the theater. Take Hercules for example ( the rock version) One trailer, does a good job of portraying the film with a somewhat serious or at least dramatic context. This movie WILL NOT BE THAT. It will have children giving light comic relief to compliment one liners and catch phrases that portray Hercules as a teen cool super hero. BUUUTTT, the advertising has created appeal for a much wider audience. Don't get me wrong it's still guilty of this times fallacies( if he has the nemean lion on his head, Don't show me the nemean lion )however over-all even with a story that i'm very familiar with, I'm still mostly in the dark as to how this film will feel and play out. So far JJ has not made these mistakes, he is using the popular media to create that speculation, prediction, and debate that normally comes from good advertising, without advertising. How? " the extended universe no longer counts, all new films are now canon. " I want to be in the dark, I want it to force you to speculate on larger themes and send you into undefined territory. I can only dream to meet a character that is interested, important to the story, and most importantly I KNOW NOTHING ABOUT !!!. I was ultimately disappointed with Prometheus, But that one trailer had me giddy to sit in that theater. With the high rate of reboots and ripoffs I understand the appeal of wanting to know if a movie is worth your money before hand. Bottom line: Tell me I'm going to see something new, I go to the theater excited to find out. Tell me what is new, I go into the theater hoping you didn't mess it up. As a long time fan of your show I can tell you with certainty. When you say we just don't know enough about this movie to know for sure, That's when I'm paying the closest attention.
 

Strain42

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krompo said:
That's not really what I was saying though. I'm not trying to say that your average movie goer knew it or SHOULD know it.

I'm saying that (and maybe this is just more my take on it than accurate) it didn't really seem like Marvel Studios was trying to make the identity of the Winter Soldier into this big secret mystery spoiler type deal.

It was like "If you know, cool, if you don't, fine." but I never felt like it was something they were trying to keep hidden from moviegoers.
 

walsfeo

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krompo said:
Also, is this what the internet really thinks of Abrams? Sites like RT clearly have limited usefulness and are overused by many but it does say something that he has never had a rotten film or even been close for that matter.
I don't know if it's what "the Internet" really thinks of Abrams, but I get sad whenever I see his name associated with a project I like. The second JJA Star Trek movie was rotten. Seriously rotten. Yeah, it was a bright and shiny glistening pool of rotten, but it was horrible. The first JJA Trek movie was exciting the first time through, but didn't stand up to repeated viewings. This is an artifact of poor ... I don't know what exactly, but it isn't good craftsmanship.

They got rid of as much canon as they could because JJA is lazy when it comes to adherence to cannon. If Disney would let him reboot the franchise, like the Trek folks let him do, he would. Not because of any grand vision, because he treasures the mystery more than the vision, but because he's not good at playing with other people's toys.

Yeah, he can do some things well when he is the creator. He doesn't instill faith when it comes to treating our loved ones with respect. He's rather like the wicked step-mother of Hollywood.
 

walsfeo

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Strain42 said:
krompo said:
That's not really what I was saying though. I'm not trying to say that your average movie goer knew it or SHOULD know it.

I'm saying that (and maybe this is just more my take on it than accurate) it didn't really seem like Marvel Studios was trying to make the identity of the Winter Soldier into this big secret mystery spoiler type deal.

It was like "If you know, cool, if you don't, fine." but I never felt like it was something they were trying to keep hidden from moviegoers.
Yeah, it felt almost like they were using the fact that there was going to be a Bucky twist to obscure the fact that the movie had a huge twist elsewhere in the movie. Sure, some folks might get caught by both, but those who know wouldn't be left without a surprise twist to enjoy.
 

Piorn

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Is it just me, or is there literally zero hype around the movie?
Maybe it's just that I expect it to be either a crystal skull or a new Star Trek movie, and undoubtedly deal with terrorism or classism, like ALL Sci-Fi movies do these days...
 
Mar 19, 2010
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In a few months years i think i will know what all those people who are constantly piling shit on phantom menace even after 15 years since it came out felt when they saw it. I was 12 at the time so for me it was amazing.
 

deathbydeath

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Steve the Pocket said:
It's the Internet. Deliberately looking up information on anything is guaranteed to give you exactly the information you're looking for. The question is, why also force the people who weren't curious enough to purposely spoil themselves to know?
1. Iron Man 3's Mandarin proves you wrong, assuming you're talking about looking things up before the movie comes out.
2. Because they didn't give a shit about the twist. I'm all but certain TWS was sewn into the script because it would get the biggest rise out of the most fanboys for the least effort.
 

tzimize

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Malisteen said:
Ronack said:
he's only in it to appeal to as wide an audience as possible.
Really? Between the 'cast of almost exclusively white dudes' and the 'only selling point is dragging back the old cast to play to the nostalgia of old fans', my very strong impression of the new Star Wars movies was that Abrams wasn't casting the net nearly widely enough.
You know...this whole cast a multicultural Benetton thing really pisses me off to NO end. There is a reason the phrase "token black guy" exist. And it really, REALLY shouldnt.

I can NOT understand the extreme desire to cast a diverse cast just for the sake of it. Thinking that movies or series need a diverse cast is stupid. Or maybe I'm just special. I dont know. I loved to watch Eddie Murphy in the 80s, but I'm not black. I adore Lucy Liu, but I'm not oriental. I didnt want the native americans in Dances with Wolves to be played by white guys. Why the hell does the entertainment industry insist on casting "someone for everyone"? How about casting the right person for the job?!

Make yourselves heard you other cultures or whatever you want to call it. Blacks, do you need to have blacks in your movies for them to be interesting? Native americans, how about you? Orientals? Others? I like good characters and good stories. I dont give a shit about what color people in my entertainment is. Am I alone in this? I'm assuming the industry is doing this because they have researched it. Which should mean that some cultures prefer to watch themselves. Is this really true?
 

emeraldrafael

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Man watching this I'm only struck with one thing. Well, two things I guess. One being that people probably really should just calm down about every new little thing that comes out and the rumor mill can scale back its flour production about.

and the second is that for all the stuff that people say they hate in the star wars movies when a new remastered edition comes out, its base original release stuff looks really dated, and didn't age well.
 

Ukomba

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Ya except what has leaked out hasn't gotten me excited, more irritated than anything. Now this is what would get me excited:

 

uneek

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Hutzpah Chicken said:
I'm always reminded of this scene when Bob talks about the Mystery Box.

I was thinking of Family Guy. Can't find a proper clip of it though.
 

Seracen

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Hell yeah "Big Trouble in Little China!!" That movie is a gem. On that note, they really should bring Kurt Russel into the next Expendables...and Steven Seagal. And while I am at it...a throwback buddy cop movie with Kurt Russel and Bruce Campbell...yes, I wanna see Sam Axe in "Tango and Cash."

As for Abrams, I am over him taking control of Star Wars. I just want them to do a good job with it. I will reserve all judgment, good or bad, until I see it.
 

Makabriel

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Ukomba said:
Ya except what has leaked out hasn't gotten me excited, more irritated than anything. Now this is what would get me excited:

Thaaaaat was interesting. Some pretty amazing editing work there. Too bad none of that is canon now!
 

Adam Kenway

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emeraldrafael said:
and the second is that for all the stuff that people say they hate in the star wars movies when a new remastered edition comes out, its base original release stuff looks really dated, and didn't age well.
It's not remastering people have a problem with. I have the remastered early 90s VHS tapes and I like the remastering. I like lots of the clean-up work and CGI starship work. Adding CGI that looks unnatural into random places is what bothers people. And replacing entire actors wholesale where they can. (Sebastian Shaw as Anakin Skywalker's force ghost AND Jeremy Bullock as the voice of Boba Fett.)

Also, the originals look dated yes, but they are movies of their own time. Also, a fair bit can be forgiven as camp. A lot of the bad CGI breaks the tone and mood of the originals and looks just as dated since these additions are from like 15 years ago.

Final addition: The hell is up with the new "song" thing in Jabba's Palace in Episode VI? The old one was pretty bad. CGI thing... so much worse.
 

Canadamus Prime

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I'm already burned out about the new Star Wars movies and they're not even close to being out yet. Although I can appreciate why Abrams is trying to do with his mystery box too, after all I do think we live in the age of too much information, but at the same time I don't think it works.
 

Ukomba

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Makabriel said:
Ukomba said:
Ya except what has leaked out hasn't gotten me excited, more irritated than anything. Now this is what would get me excited:

Thaaaaat was interesting. Some pretty amazing editing work there. Too bad none of that is canon now!
Ya, Fing Disney.

I just wish he'd used some dark forces 2 stuff in there.
 

twosage

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Marvel plays this game very well. They engage the public and the press, give us tons of information leading up to a movie (if we seek it out through the press), while still able to shatter our expectations with surprising character moments and plot twists we never thought was coming. Sure, all the comic fans were smugly expecting Winter Soldier to be Bucky Barnes (frankly, you just had to remember Sebastian Stan's name from the first one to see that coming) and everyone expected Pierce to be a bad guy all along, but no one saw Hydra's resurgence or Mandarin's true nature coming. At all.

These movies work for someone coming off the street with no idea about the press coverage, and they work equally well, but in a different way, for people who have been gorging on every spoiler they can find.
 

RunicFox

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TiberiusEsuriens said:
Definitely, even looking back at Abram's last forays. Star Trek reboot was, despite the standard insane Abrams lighting effects, a really fun movie because the actors absolutely nailed their parts and there was time given to create character chemistry. Compare that to Star Trek 2, where the entire point of the movie was *spoiler* "he's not Khan, he's not Khan, he's not Khan, who am I kidding he's totally Khan." The entire movie had no other purpose or characterization other than to drag out a "secret" that literally the entire world already guessed.
Jasper van Heycop said:
Case in point: the original Star Wars Trilogy, George Lucas' original ideas were, frankly, awful and the entire trilogy was saved by good editing (Episode IV) and good writers (Episode V). Then they let him have free reign on the prequels and look how that turned out *shudders*.

At least with this new trilogy we get a director that is passable overall, with a few moments of greatness.
People have their opinions. I'd choose Abrams over a few people so it's not the worst situation. I think we're all skeptical in the shadow of the now infamous "New Trilogy" which, to be frank, is a good position for Disney to be in. At worst, what they create is not memorable (which with this franchise I find impossible) or they do what they've been doing for years.

Say what you will about Disney, but they own our past at this point. They may not be 'embracing' nerdy culture, but they know what expectations we'd have for the IP that we value. I've been enjoying Marvel's romp -- and I'd never thought I'd say this, but I'm ready for a new Star Wars.


Added bit: I really, really, really hope they use scale models and sets.