The Big Picture: Tropes vs. MovieBob

[Lilani]

I have read and understood your last complete paragraph, but there's still something you and most women have not come to terms with. The gaming community and culture, if you will, has been around for 20+ years. I think anyone can agree with this. The major demographic has always been male, the age ranges have always remained around the same as well. This can be argued per generation, but the vast majority of people have grown up with games. We know things have been over sexualized. We know it, we've seen it, some of us don't necessarily like nor agree with it, but we, as a community, have never really seen a problem with it.<---Key point. Yes they should make games appeal to all demographics, but that's rather hard to do. Considering everyone and their grandma is a gamer. (Mine plays an hour of Pop-It a night, and can woop my ass in it to boot.)

With the addition of women demographics, and the feminist movements themselves, this has now become a problem that has been blown way out of proportion. (Here's were my argument can get muddled.) You, as in women, are joining a culture that is vastly different than what society typically deems it as. Yes, they are making games that are more gender neutral, and that's great. I like seeing more and more people playing video games, it's been a hobby of mine for 14+ years. But attacking a culture or a hobby just because you believe it to be sexist, after you've been targeted by the culture to join it, is where most of the outrage comes from. Most of us couldn't care less if you stick with games or not, we just don't care. It's the same thing as if you were a man. Again, if you stay with it or not, we just don't care. But the medium we enjoy has grown and evolved to what it is, and the vast majority of gamers don't want to see a MINORITY (<---Second Key Point) come in and start making big changes, or seeing something drastically change because of a MINORITY. Instead of attacking the community as a whole for perpetuating over sexualized heroes and characters, discussion could have been opened up in an intelligent manner, and those in the industry would have listened.

Now I know that 'de-sexifiying' video games won't ruin my enjoyment of them. In fact, it won't ruin the majority's enjoyment of video games, but what female gamers are doing are lashing out at a culture that has extended it's arms in invitation, and that has rubbed a lot of people the wrong way.

Now I'm not trying to attack you in general, my main argument is really in defense of how a few people have gone about 'attacking' games in a wrong way. I felt like I had a valid point to make.

It is hard to make games that appeal to both genders, but not impossible. Again, Valve has proven that several times over. And Bioware did a pretty good job with Mass Effect, in my opinion. I guess I will go ahead and break out the video script, because in it I outline what goes wrong in this process and what to look out for to fix it. I'm not quite done editing yet, so the order might be strange and there will probably be prompts for what I want to put on screen at that moment, but I think it explains the crux of the problem pretty clearly.

Spoiler

I?ve been wanting to make a video like this for a while, and with all this controversy recently it seems this is the perfect time to bring it up. I?m going to talk about how women are portrayed in video games, why I think it happens, and at the end I?ll list some ways to solve the problem and a few examples of who?s been doing this right. Sorry if this gets a bit rambly, this is the first time I?ve ever made a video like this. So here we go.

As has been pointed out by many the last few years, women in video games are often portrayed in a very...polarizing way. This wasn?t a big issue 10 to 15 years ago, but now that more and more women are playing video games and the gaming culture itself is becoming more vocal and more networked, it?s something that can?t be ignored any longer. Just as film and television had to grow out of giving women roles no more important than being the main causes of trouble or the prize sought by the man at the end of his adventure, video games and the community at large are going to have to grow out of the notion there is never a problem with making all the women in a game dress like strippers. I think the crux of the issue is this: the way women are portrayed in video games is not how they want to see themselves. It?s how men want to see them.

Now I do understand that a lot of it has to do with target audience. If your target audience is 14 year old boys, then by all means, appeal to those 14 year old boys. Bring in the aliens dressed as strippers and the damsels in distress.

But if your target audience is a mix of genders and age groups, then a lot more thought needs to be put into who is in your game and how they are being portrayed. When your target audiences start conflicting, or when one side is being favored over the other, that is when you start offending people and putting them off.

Now before I get carried away with myself, I?d like to take care of just a few questions and common objections I?ve seen regarding this. First question:
?Don?t women want to explore their sexuality??

Well yes, yes we do. We like looking and feeling sexy. That is not an issue at all. But here?s the thing: we want it to be on our terms. We want to fulfill our vision of sexy, and we want it to be our choice as to when and where we appear so. But when it comes to armor in games, you don?t really have an option as to what you?re wearing. It?s however the armor was designed, and if it?s to be sexy it?s whatever the designer and their target audience?s definition of ?sexy? is. And believe it or not, when a woman thinks of herself as sexy, it?s not usually the same thing an 14 year old boy thinks of.

And you know what? I can prove this. When I was in high school, the quintessential ?sexy? men according to girls my age on down to about 14 were none other than Edward Cullen and Jacob Black. And never, in my life, have I heard of any guy from my or any generation say they wish they could be as sexy as Edward or Jacob. A man?s definition of sexy, from what I?ve been able to gather anyway, is somewhere closer to James Bond. Suave, debonair, cool, and a lady-killer. A well cut suit instead of exposed pecs, and remaining cool and aloof about love instead of all sappy and desperate. So no, it?s not that we?re ashamed of our sexuality, it?s that the kind of ?sexy? being used to define us isn?t what we have in mind for ourselves.
Objection number two: ?Men are portrayed just as unrealistically!?

Yes, I?ll give you that men in games are usually just as hypermasculine as the females are hyperfeminine. But last I checked, guys don?t often come equipped with armor that makes them look like they?re heading to roleplay night at Chippendales. Idealized is one thing, sexualized is another thing entirely. And while we?re here, femininity is not inherently sexual, and neither is masculinity. For example, there are feminine and masculine outfits, but not overtly sexy. These are also feminine and masculine, but a lot more sexualized. Let?s not get these mixed up.

And the last objection I?ll be covering: ?If you women don?t like how you?re being portrayed, then why don?t you try and change it!?

First of all, I am trying by making this video. That Tropes VS Women fundraiser was also trying to make a difference, and it was met with a lot of resistance. Secondly, I understand men just have a tendency to make things that are male-oriented, and there isn?t anything inherently wrong with that. I know in my creative works, I tend to make things female-oriented. So I?m not trying to say guys can?t make guy games. My only goal here is to clear the ambiguity and confusion that occurs in situations where the creators are actively trying to appeal to both genders.

And third, to be perfectly honest, this skewed image of what women are ?supposed? to look like in games and in popular media in general was not caused by women. So to think that women are the only ones who should make an effort to clean up the mess is just arrogance and petulance. Everybody has a hand in the problem, so everybody should have a hand in the solution. I think that is only fair.

So, now that that?s cleared up. On to the main event: ambiguity. See usually in media, when a character is meant to be sexualized, it?s pretty obvious. However, in the gaming community, I?ve seen a lot of people trying to legitimize the appearance of clearly sexualized characters, like Lara Croft. They say, ?Well, she dresses like that because she?s so confident in herself. And of course she?s thin and toned, just look at all the athletic stuff she does in the game!?

While I agree a strong, healthy body is very much explained by her character and her chosen profession, I?m not so sure any experienced hiker in their right mind would choose booty shorts over cargo pants in a rainforest, where insects, spiders, and leeches are always looking for a bit of exposed skin to nibble on. That doesn?t make logical make sense, and it raises the question: is she really dressing that way for herself? Or was she designed that way for the enjoyment of the audience the original Tomb Raider game was made for in 1996?
When you make overt visual sexuality a part of your character, can be confusing and even off-putting if the reason for it isn?t made clear.

It makes me think of another game I?ve played, Final Fantasy X-2. Do not judge me! See, the costumes of the main cast, especially Rikku and Yuna, really on my nerves. In the first game, Final Fantasy X, they were properly dressed for their characters. Rikku was basically an Al Bhed mechanic, so she wore a mechanic?s work suit. Yuna was a respected religious figure, so her outfit was distinct, but modest and fit the part. In both cases, their outfits are appropriate for their characters and backstories.

But two years later in the sequel, Rikku is wearing a bikini top and a skirt so short its top edges don?t even cover the straps of her thong. And Yuna is wearing a minimally covering shirt and micro shorts.

Their new looks are never brought up in the game as some sort of statement, or a change in their attitudes. Rikku never expresses a fondness for spontaneously taking a swim to explain her bikini top, and Yuna doesn?t really express any sort of feeling of liberation after defeating Sin and leaving the Summoner business. She does enjoy the freedom being a sphere hunter over having to follow Yevon?s rules, but I don?t feel the change was ever made out to be so significant it would cause such a drastic change in her wardrobe. Then, taking into account that they are sphere hunters who travel all over Spira, from the beaches of Besaid to the highest and coldest peaks of Mount Gagazet, their outfits have absolutely no functionality in that respect and make no sense. I mean imagining how Lulu made it up Gagazet in the first game was hard enough, but imagining those two doing it the way they?re dressed in just ridiculous.

So, did Rikku and Yuna really choose to dress like that? I can?t say. All I know is there is a gap between how these girls behave and what they wear, and it is never explained or addressed in the game.

This sort of ambiguity of character and clothing has been at the heart many game controversies: Bayonetta and her hair dress, Samus?s Zero Suit, Ivy from Soul Calibur, in fact most Japanese games with female characters. They are all strong characters (for the most part, regarding Samus? character change in Other M), but is the eye candy they provide really for the benefit of their character? Or is that just our way of legitimizing cheap oogling? (show picture of Miranda?s butt shot in ME2).

I?m not trying to say that can?t be viable explanation. I would have no problem with a female character who is so flamboyant and proud of her figure she doesn?t mind strutting about in a bikini when other clothes might be more appropriate for what she?s doing. But if that?s the case, it needs to be evident in her character. She needs to speak for herself and make it absolutely clear that?s how she feels. If the question has to be asked, then the creators have not done their job in properly characterizing her.

And if we as a community are having to legitimize these outfits with the same, vague explanation again and again for radically different characters, I think it becomes pretty clear a ?strong character? isn?t the only reason for these ladies? scantily clad polygons.
This poor explanation also comes with some negative subtext--that in order for a woman to be strong and confident, she has to dress like a stripper. That correlation is absolutely false, and that is never how you should approach making a strong character. Alyx Vance is strong and brave, and she didn?t need booty shorts and a mile of cleavage to show that. Just as Marcus Fenix didn?t have to dress like Fabio.

Now, I?m not about to let this video be nothing but a gripe fest. So here is my two cents as to how to approach these problems. When you?re trying to appeal to a female audience, if you don?t have any females on hand to help, try to put yourself in their shoes. Because that?s essentially the problem here: men thinking of women from a man?s perspective. Be very aware of everything you do with the character, and why. The why is especially important, you always need to be aware of the logic behind every choice your character makes. It is very easy to slip into stereotypes when you lose track of your character?s intentions. For example:
Here are some male characters posing for their covers. Strong, indicative of his character. Show a female striking a pose for a cover. Sexual, provocative, rather than being some sort of fighting pose or a pose of power, she is putting her body and features on display. This is what I mean: showing women in ways stereotypical men want to see them, rather than as individual characters.

Just try to do some equivalence checks between the general the characters are putting off. Does this character look more like a thief, or does she look more like a stripper? Are her features and clothing appropriate for her character? Try comparing to a male character posed and dressed similarly.

Once again, have a rhyme for your reason. If your leading lady is dressed a certain way, make sure there?s a reason why. If it?s the apocalypse she chooses to wear daisy dukes rather than cargo or athletic pants, then have a reason for it. And if there isn?t a reason for it, change it. Have what they wear reflect the the character, the situation, and how the character is dealing with that situation.

And the same goes with the poses they strike. Here is some art from a great tumblr [http://womenfighters.tumblr.com/] I found, called Women Fighters in Reasonable Armor. These pictures all show women who are not only dressed reasonably for adventure, but have a fire in their eyes. You can really tell there?s something to them. They?re strong, they?re fierce, they?re confident. They?re showing real emotions, indications of real characters beneath. They look and act like warriors, not strippers who?ve been given swords in the place of poles.

As another disclaimer, I understand men and women carry themselves differently and don?t always strike the same poses. Trust me, I have tried to not let my butt move back and forth when I walk, but I can?t. It?s just a fact of biology. There is nothing wrong with that, for either gender. But there is a line between how women move and how guys like to see women move (clip from the Click trailer?), and it?s pretty evident when that line has been crossed. Again, feminine and sexual are not the same thing. You can?t tell me Team Ninja made jiggle physics just to more accurately portray how women look when they move.

Now we?re getting close to the end, so just bear with me a little longer. As I said before, I?m not saying games geared toward males don?t have a right to be made. What I am saying is games which are intended to be unisex tend to lean a lot toward the male end of the spectrum, and there are real things we can do to fix that.

And there are already some developers who are doing it right. I mentioned Alyx Vance before. Valve does a very good job with their characters, both male and female. On top of that, they prove that making a game that appeals to both genders does not require a perfectly even split of X and Y chromosomes. Look at Team Fortress 2. The entire cast is male, but while I play the game, that fact never even occurs to me. The characters and the world are bright and hilarious, and adding females into the mix ?for the sake of diversity? wouldn?t improve anything. I think it would only ruin the dynamic the current set of characters have. The game is light and basically nonsexual. The only time they talk about women is when making snide insults at each other. It feels almost like a Saturday morning cartoon...but with blood and swearing.

I know Valve is perfectly capable of mixing male and female characters in a cast, as they've proven in Left 4 Dead. But what they have with TF2 just works, and even though it?s an all male cast it still reads as unisex. Pixar is also very good at telling ?guy stories? without making women feel excluded or like the story wasn?t intended for them.

But you know, even Pixar isn?t perfect. If you have a DVD of Toy Story 2, listen to the director?s commentary for the scene where Jessie rescues Woody from the airplane. When that scene was written, the situation was actually reversed. It was Jessie that was trapped, and it was Woody who came to her rescue. When they wrote the scene, they didn?t think much of it. It was the climactic and heroic end they were looking for to wrap up the escape.

But when Joan Cusack came in to read Jessie?s lines for the scene, she became very frustrated with it. She said it was just so typical, the man coming to the woman?s rescue on horseback. Up to that point, she had admired how Jessie wasn?t the typical damsel in distress female that comes out of most western-themed situations. And after she brought it up, the writers realized it too. They made Jessie out to be such a strong character, but when it was time for her to show her stuff, it was Woody who got all the credit. He?d had several scenes in the movie where he got to show what he was capable of, plus the entire previous film. The writers knew they couldn?t steal this opportunity from Jessie. So, they reversed the situation. The scene remained just as dramatic, and it gave Jessie and her fans the moment of awesomeness they deserved.

So while games and movies that are unisex seem effortless, there is actually quite a bit of thought that must go into how you structure the characters and the story to make everybody feel equally represented. If you raise a question, you have to answer it. If you make two characters equally capable, you have to show it. You can?t just barrel through something using one perspective and expect it to come out perfectly fine. And even if you actively try to make things unisex, you should always get a second opinion and never dismiss criticism when you hear it.

 

[imagremlin]

I'm not 100% with Bob on this one.

He argues that men cannot miss out on jobs because of appearance, which is not true. If I want a position selling weight loss products... and I'm fat, I'm not getting it, regardless of gender. I'm an IT consultant, I cant afford to have long hair, a goatee or a visible tatoo.

Is it an evil conspiracy? Is is discrimination? No it is not. Its justa simple market reality. If the weight loss company were to be "fair" and hire overweight people, they would go out of business, the market would put them out of business, plain and simple.

I'm not saying things are 100% fair for women. They're not, but there's also a bit of traditional roles at play here. Roles woman traditionally play often depend on appearance. It just happens, and as far as I know, woman tend to be attracted to those roles. AND THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH IT. Whats is wrong is that women wanting to play other roles are judged unfairly, but then again, that is just a matter of expectations. You expect most engineers to be male, males like engineering and those going into it usually have a fair level of competency. A female engineer is still the odd one out. When you hire someone you make a bet, and the bet is coloured by experience, how else could it be? And it works the other way too, work with children is a female dominated marketplace, and men are at a disadvantage. Is it wrong? No its not.

Yes, the gaming industry is rife with stereotypes. And not coincidentally, this is a male dominated industry. Again, because it's compelling to US. How many women do you think are interested in designing games?

I assure you, if there was a market out there for games with "male stereotypes viewed from a female perspective", the games would be there. Hell, I'd go ahead and make the games myself if that would make me rich.

 

[Lilani]

And, just sayin', but my two favorite game characters happen to be from a Valve Game, specifically Sniper and Engineer from Team Fortress 2. Neither is specifically handsome (Engineer exhibits why one of the nicknames for TF2 is "Jaw Fortress"), and the Sniper is a horse-faced Australian who throws jars of piss at people as one of his attacks. Yet, I do find them attractive, just not conventionally so. Bioware is another developer who makes characters who aren't conventionally attractive and yet women seem to love them (Thane, Mordin, and even Wrex are loved by women gamers. Tell me any one of those characters is "attractive" in a conventional way... and yet, it's their personalities that are more attractive than the physical appearance. I played Baldur's Gate 2, the first Bioware game that had romances (that I am aware of), and all those romances are flawed in some way. But the bias towards men in that game is obvious. Men get the choice of three different characters to Romance, women had one. Anomen, who was, to put it kindly, a dick. He could be more of a dick or less of one depending on the choices you made in your romance, but the character was a dick. Whereas men had sickly-sweet Aerie, Tsundere Jaheira or the neutral evil Drow woman Viconia deVir (which is why I say that all the romances were flawed in some way). Three versus one- there's some inequality right there. But they tried, which gives them a pass. I just wish women had as many choices for romance as men did, not one wishy-washy one. (And users tried to amend that by putting in a second romance with one of the Male Drow you meet in the underworld... Solaufein, I think it was. A good attempt, but only for the Windows version of the game, sadly.)

I'm not saying that men can't have their Big Boobed Panty Ninja characters, but the writing of those characters tends to suck, because not many characters, male or female, tend to have a coherent backstory, and even if they do have one, it's as shallow as a puddle in a parking lot. Write deeper, better characters, and the problem of their looks will tend to evaporate.

Oh, and just to bring in another form of media, my favorite character in the new Avengers flick was Bruce Banner. Not because he turns into the rampaging Green Rage beast, but because of his character and backstory. Second favorite was Tony Stark, Master of the Snarky Comment, because he made me laugh like a Hyena. (His "we all have performance issues" scene with Loki made me glad I wasn't drinking anything at the time, because I would totally have snorted liquid out of my nose.)

-snip-

I couldn't agree with you more in all of that. In my post above I posted that script I was talking about, and in it I say about the exact same thing. Even about TF2, it's toward the end of the script.

It's funny how people still deny the double standards men and women are held to as far as appearance in media, even when it's staring them right in the face. Just look at couples in sitcoms. King of Queens, Everybody Loves Raymond, George Lopez, hell even Cheers, Frasier, and the Flintstones. The male sides of the main couples in those stories are chosen for their character, not their looks. Which means most of them are either overweight or just don't exactly fit the typical Hollywood standard of attractive. But, that's okay because they're there for their characters, not to be eye candy.

But their wives, and other significant females in the show? All thin, all in shape, and all beautiful. It's as though males have a right to be unattractive as long as they're endearing, but even if the women are endearing they must be attractive as well. The only women allowed to not be thin or attractive are older women, or women whose story arc has specifically to do with their weight.

That is one reason I love the show Roseanne. It's a show that has an overweight couple, but it's not about a couple that is overweight. It has a gay character, but it's not about a character being gay. It has a teen pregnancy, but it's not about a teenager being pregnant. It has all these things, these elements of real-life unglossed by Hollywood standards of "normal," and it doesn't make any of them the only punchline. Because life doesn't come with unusual circumstances that are perfectly sterile and cauterized, pre-packaged with strict sets of morals and lessons, and totally free of other problems which could distract from the lessons of the first. Life is a mess of problems thrown together and added up at random.

Anyway, if you're wondering why I quoted you Xanthious it's because I wanted you to know I have the script up there.

 

[Lilani]

Trying to actually make EVERY game appeal to both genders completely ignores other demographics that basically transcend rage, gender and age. Especially when you consider that the genre(yes I'm using the term loosely) of the game you plan to create is essentially a demographic in itself and up to the developers to ensure that if said consumer understood a game like Diablo then they would be drawn to purchasing games like Torchlight. Has nothing to do with their race, age or gender but simply what kind game or book they like to play or read.

What I notice about some of the dissenters is that the freedom should be given to the developers and publishers to make the games they wish to create and to use what tools and narrative devices they see fit. Going on a tirade on how video games are sexist and creating this political correctness can actually hinder the games industry and the creative process cause if the little nugget in the back of their head(or even worse the player) feels like they shouldn't play a game cause "it's sexist" then you create a stigma where people are honestly paralyzed from actually taking part of the hobby they loved for DECADES.

Okay, once again, I am not saying that every game should be gender neutral. I am saying games that are INTENDED TO BE gender neutral need to pay close attention to make sure they achieve their goal. I can't speak for what other women say about games, and I am not going to argue what other women have to say about them. This is about what I am saying about it, and I am saying gamemakers can make games for whomever they want as long as they make a legitimate effort to get it right, and don't try to act like it's "good enough" when they fall short of the mark.

 

[Machine Man 1992]

In all seriousness, I've always debunked the argument of the mountain of muscle argument as that is an obtainable goal if you put in the time an effort to get that buff. A female will not however (without surgery) ever be able to turn into Ayane; no matter how much time or effort they put in to transforming themselves.

In theory you could; vigorous exercise of the pectorals pushes the breasts out and gives them natural lift (plus you can move them without hands!). If she's thin hipped, there's dressing techniques and patterns that give the illusion of wider, desirable "breeders hips". If her face is unfortunate, well, tough luck. I'm not a miracle worker. But, non-invasive and affordable surgical techniques exist that can take even the most butt-ugly person and make them passable.

Also, becoming a mountain of muscle requires a level of commitment that most men aren't willing to put in, and even if they do, may not have time to hit the gym to become muscle men. (fingers crossed they come up with affordable cybernetics; gonna get me some Adam Jensen arms...)

Unrealistic body images are as old as fiction itself: I guarantee you that not everyone in biblical times was ripped like Samson. Square jawed, perma-stubbled manly men are as common in female oriented media as it is in male oriented media, the key difference being how it's used: Women would view Mr. Man as a desirable mate, just as a male would view a lady with an hourglass figure. Men view Mr. Man as a desirable image for themselves, just as women desire to be smoking hot. It depends on the audience; context is key to everything.

 

[OtherSideofSky]

This was not an analysis of the portrayal of MovieBob in media. I am deeply disappointed.

Also, once again, the "no one designs male characters to appeal to women" argument does not apply to Japan. You know, the place where like half the world's games (and certainly the world's most sexual games) get made? Yeah, they design male game characters to appeal to women, just like they do in their comic books (ever since they started doing reader surveys in the early 90s), just like they do in their cartoons, just like they do in their live action television (you know those rubber-suit superhero shows they make for eight year old boys? The men they cast in those are chosen to appeal to women now. It stops mothers from changing the channel). No, not every male character in a Japanese game is designed that way or for that reason and yes, the games built around identifying with a female protagonist and ogling hot guys basically never get localized. It sucks, I know, but can we please get past this outdated eurocentrism? All it takes is a few words to qualify that you're only talking about your own culture, not everyone else's, and that's especially important when your made-up game title is clearly not something that would be made in Europe or America.

Since he clearly outlined what specific parts of the games are problems, it's safe to assume games that do not have those problems are excluded from criticism.

No, he specifically stated, in his final argument, that the unrealistic portrayal of women in games and other media is problem, while the unrealistic portrayal of men is not, because both are primarily designed to appeal to men. I responded that I am currently living in a nation which produces a significant portion of the world's games in which this is untrue. He is not required to address this situation, but it is his responsibility to acknowledge the existence of circumstances differing from those he describes and the limited scope of his own observations.

In a multicultural industry like this one it is lazy and insulting to present anglosphere tropes as if they are universally applicable. It is an intellectual legacy of the modernist culture of imperialism and Movie Bob, who has devoted an episode to such things in the past, should do a better job qualifying his statements. His own inability to speak Japanese or lack of personal experience with the popular culture of Japan are no excuse.

 

[theultimateend]

I'm not really sure what to say other than this is a very professional way of dealing with the subject at hand.

The next question is what do we do about it?

Accept that it exists, scold everyone who does it, and then actively try to do the exact opposite.

Do I agree with that myself? Not really, but that's the inevitable expectation.

Also find it a little weird that I'm supposed to be into muscle bound guys as my personal dream body image? I dunno...sounded like he said a quarter isn't a quarter, it's 25 cents. He even called it Art when talking about the Adonis.

Ah well, I don't really care one way or the other. Sure he mentioned Mario but didn't mention Peach, "But she's a Gorgeous Princess!" Well...I guess, but she's not hypersexualized, anime pictures not withstanding.

She's also arguably the most identifiable female character in Video games.

In all seriousness, I've always debunked the argument of the mountain of muscle argument as that is an obtainable goal if you put in the time an effort to get that buff. A female will not however (without surgery) ever be able to turn into Ayane; no matter how much time or effort they put in to transforming themselves.

Uh...I was in a pretty heavy martial arts training routine for two straight years. I ate well, drank protein shakes, etc etc.

I didn't gain a pound throughout the whole ordeal. My endurance is great though.

I'm not sure how much more effort you can put into working out beyond it literally becoming your job and your free time for two straight years >_>. I realize I'm probably more the exception to the rule though.

 

[Lilani]

This was not an analysis of the portrayal of MovieBob in media. I am deeply disappointed.

Also, once again, the "no one designs male characters to appeal to women" argument does not apply to Japan. You know, the place where like half the world's games (and certainly the world's most sexual games) get made? Yeah, they design male game characters to appeal to women, just like they do in their comic books (ever since they started doing reader surveys in the early 90s), just like they do in their cartoons, just like they do in their live action television (you know those rubber-suit superhero shows they make for eight year old boys? The men they cast in those are chosen to appeal to women now. It stops mothers from changing the channel). No, not every male character in a Japanese game is designed that way or for that reason and yes, the games built around identifying with a female protagonist and ogling hot guys basically never get localized. It sucks, I know, but can we please get past this outdated eurocentrism? All it takes is a few words to qualify that you're only talking about your own culture, not everyone else's, and that's especially important when your made-up game title is clearly not something that would be made in Europe or America.

Since he clearly outlined what specific parts of the games are problems, it's safe to assume games that do not have those problems are excluded from criticism.

No, he specifically stated, in his final argument, that the unrealistic portrayal of women in games and other media is problem, while the unrealistic portrayal of men is not, because both are primarily designed to appeal to men. I responded that I am currently living in a nation which produces a significant portion of the world's games in which this is untrue. He is not required to address this situation, but it is his responsibility to acknowledge the existence of circumstances differing from those he describes and the limited scope of his own observations.

In a multicultural industry like this one it is lazy and insulting to present anglosphere tropes as if they are universally applicable. It is an intellectual legacy of the modernist culture of imperialism and Movie Bob, who has devoted an episode to such things in the past, should do a better job qualifying his statements. His own inability to speak Japanese or lack of personal experience with the popular culture of Japan are no excuse.

Japan isn't totally innocent, you know. Ivy from Soul Calibur is always brought up in these sorts of discussions, and both she and her games are the products of Capcom. And she is rightly used as an example, because there is absolutely no reason for her to be dressed like that. It is not explained by her character or her storyline. The only reason she's like that is for gratuitous oogling.

This is about a problem, not about regions. I'm aware there is a bit of a problem with gamers assuming their region is the only one that exists, hell that is a problem with every form of media and sector of life. But if you're going to claim a region is totally innocent of criticisms which might be inadvertently thrown its way, the first thing you have to do is be correct. Which in this case, I'm afraid you aren't.

 

[Busdriver580]

I'm honestly surprised Bob did what amounts to a promotional for this series. No reasonable person will deny that games tend to be overwhelmingly sexist, and nobody who thinks they aren't is going to be tuned in. Frankly, I see the whole thing as a huge scam. It would be one thing if she was focusing an entire series on hypothetical ways to improve the situation, or maybe how consumers can affect a positive change away from sexism, but as is shes getting paid to tell us that sexism in games EXISTS. It's frankly disgusting that someone would ask for money to essentially complain about a well known and documented fact. That doesn't help at all, and its lazy. For sake of example, you see PSAs about how to avoid causing forest fires but you would never see a PSA explaining that forest fires are a thing.

Furthermore, between Bob ignoring all the reasonable criticism and the recent article, id say that the escapist has some kind of interest in supporting this project and im very disappointed.

 

[Timnoldzim]

Wait, 12? Damn it! Did Big Boobed Panty Ninja 11 come out already? God, I always miss launch news these days!

 

[A Weary Exile]

*Snip*

I like how she's supposed to be pointing out hypocrisy in gender relations, but then the videos in the side bar are titled "What liquor ads teach us about men." and "The real reason guys should hate Twilight." like there's some sort of dudebro hive-mind that we're all a part of.

 

[theultimateend]

Japan isn't totally innocent, you know. Ivy from Soul Calibur is always brought up in these sorts of discussions, and both she and her games are the products of Capcom. And she is rightly used as an example, because there is absolutely no reason for her to be dressed like that. It is not explained by her character or her storyline. The only reason she's like that is for gratuitous oogling.

This is about a problem, not about regions. I'm aware there is a bit of a problem with gamers assuming their region is the only one that exists, hell that is a problem with every form of media and sector of life. But if you're going to claim a region is totally innocent of criticisms which might be inadvertently thrown its way, the first thing you have to do is be correct. Which in this case, I'm afraid you aren't.

I would like game developers to just make a "scanty armor" and a "regular armor" set for every character. Then track the data for what is used more.

Not that it means we should stick with what is used more, I'd just be curious if this is the market meeting a need or responding to a need that doesn't actually exist.

It would also bring choice into the matter. I'm sure with character editors the way they are we could add in modifiers so people could make everyone a B Cup in a suit with average complexion etc etc.

I will note as a kid I used IVY because her sword is obscenely strong. But who did I use more than her?

Spoiler: This Guy

*Snip*

I like how she's supposed to be pointing out hypocrisy in gender relations, but then the videos in the side bar are titled "What liquor ads teach us about men." and "The real reason guys should hate Twilight." like there's some sort of dudebro hive-mind that we're all a part of.

Bob suggested nothing short of that by saying the male thing is cool because its what all men are deigning to be.

So I guess she's innocent in that respect .

 

[Elate]

*Snip*

I like how she's supposed to be pointing out hypocrisy in gender relations, but then the videos in the side bar are titled "What liquor ads teach us about men." and "The real reason guys should hate Twilight." like there's some sort of dudebro hive-mind that we're all a part of.

It's also funny how half the adverts make the men also look like morons and such, but she doesn't even pick up on that in the slightest, yet it is still blatant sexism.

But yo bro, didn't you like totes hear me telling you that through the broverlord?

 

[Lilani]

*Snip*

I like how she's supposed to be pointing out hypocrisy in gender relations, but then the videos in the side bar are titled "What liquor ads teach us about men." and "The real reason guys should hate Twilight." like there's some sort of dudebro hive-mind that we're all a part of.

I think you might be surprised. I don't know which one, but I specifically remember there was an episode of Big Picture where he said something like "Guys, if we get to have Ivy from Soul Calibur, we can't complain about girls getting the werewolves in Twilight. Fair is fair. If we get to have our big breasted ladies dressed like they're in an S&M club, they get to have their werewolves dressed like guys from Chippendale's. Fair is fair." Because apparently enough guys were complaining about how sexualized the guys from Twilight are, he caught wind of it and felt compelled to mention it.

I know not all guys are like that, and I'm pretty sure he's aware of that too (though admittedly Bob tends to be very anti-dudebro). But it's still interesting to see. Sex sells, and all that.

 

[Machine Man 1992]

I still face-palm when I hear talk about the whole And yes before anyone goes "oh but there are much bigger problems with this controversy," I know. But if she can complain about something like Legos when there are huge human rights violations in the world in regards to females, I can complain about parts of her nonsense.

If we can't fix sexism here how can we hope to fix it elsewhere. Your argument doesn't hold up. There are millions starving in other countries so I shouldn't give money to the local food bank?

I never understand why so many people use the doctrine of relative filth. Maybe because it's easier than trying to fix the problems. It's worse somewhere else so why should I bother fixing something not as bad but closer to home.

I think what Rednog was trying to say was that with all the fuckloads of money she raked in, she'd have relatively more constructive and relevant things to say, because seriously? Complaining about motherfucking LEGOS? What is this I don't even.

Yes, the revolution starts at home, but with all that money, one would think that she'd put it to good use for things other than bitching about the fact that games are geared towards 15-25 year old heterosexual males, who are the core consumers of video games.

 

[theultimateend]

It would also bring choice into the matter. I'm sure with character editors the way they are we could add in modifiers so people could make everyone a B Cup in a suit with average complexion etc etc.

I will note as a kid I used IVY because her sword is obscenely strong. But who did I use more than her?

Spoiler: This Guy

You son of a *****! Well, at least you didn't use Raphael. Gotta say I personally like to play Kilik and Maxi. Loved their backstory and their own relation to Soul Calibur and of course I'm a sucker for nunchucks and staves.

I'm actually a pretty big fan of Soul Calibur. Which is why I usually get bummed out when people can't get past the character models.

I'm no expert in how to fix the issue of women being abused in the business place. I still really REALLY want there to be a complete gender shift so I can be expected to work at home and women get the better pay and benefits at work.

I've done the housewife life, I loved it. I'm actually pretty bummed that the cost of living in California requires my Wife and I to both work. I'd eat up the housework, I'm a sucker for a vacuum (heh).

But I digress. Voldo is absolutely fantastic. I can't stand Maxi (I don't know why I win when I do win with him) but yes, Kilik is awesome sauce.

Wow...this post really took a weird ass detour before it came back to my original point...

 

[Twinmill5000]

You know what, Bob, you know what?

I actually... agree with you on this one.

That's coming from someone whose character in Tera is a female Castanic warrior that looks like this:
http://img802.imageshack.us/img802/9403/terascreen.png



You know why I agree with you? Because Anita never said the games where, say my character from Tera make an appearance, shouldn't exist, but that there should be more variety.

This is good.

That's all I really have to say. If you want, I can dig up my comment I posted in support of her Kickstarter, in hopes that she'd actually read it. Now, what I should have done was posted that same comment when I actually backed her project, but still.

 

[A Weary Exile]

*Snip*

I like how she's supposed to be pointing out hypocrisy in gender relations, but then the videos in the side bar are titled "What liquor ads teach us about men." and "The real reason guys should hate Twilight." like there's some sort of dudebro hive-mind that we're all a part of.

It's also funny how half the adverts make the men also look like morons and such, but she doesn't even pick up on that in the slightest, yet it is still blatant sexism.

But yo bro, didn't you like totes hear me telling you that through the broverlord?

Nah sorry, bro. I was too busy working on my vintage muscle car while lifting weights and making cat-calls at passing women. Now give me your bropardons while I take my leave and go perpetuate the patriarchy by looking at massive boobies on my favorite porno sites. *Brofist*

Captcha: In the limelight. woo, Rush.

 

[Machine Man 1992]

*Snip*

I like how she's supposed to be pointing out hypocrisy in gender relations, but then the videos in the side bar are titled "What liquor ads teach us about men." and "The real reason guys should hate Twilight." like there's some sort of dudebro hive-mind that we're all a part of.

It's also funny how half the adverts make the men also look like morons and such, but she doesn't even pick up on that in the slightest, yet it is still blatant sexism.

But yo bro, didn't you like totes hear me telling you that through the broverlord?

Nah sorry, bro. I was too busy working on my vintage muscle car while lifting weights and making cat-calls at passing women. Now give me your bropardons while I take my leave and go perpetuate the patriarchy by looking at massive boobies on my favorite porno sites. *Brofist*

Captcha: In the limelight. woo, Rush.

Actually, owning a muscle car and having the testicular fortitude to make cat-calls at passerby is one of my fantasies...

 

[OtherSideofSky]

This was not an analysis of the portrayal of MovieBob in media. I am deeply disappointed.

Also, once again, the "no one designs male characters to appeal to women" argument does not apply to Japan. You know, the place where like half the world's games (and certainly the world's most sexual games) get made? Yeah, they design male game characters to appeal to women, just like they do in their comic books (ever since they started doing reader surveys in the early 90s), just like they do in their cartoons, just like they do in their live action television (you know those rubber-suit superhero shows they make for eight year old boys? The men they cast in those are chosen to appeal to women now. It stops mothers from changing the channel). No, not every male character in a Japanese game is designed that way or for that reason and yes, the games built around identifying with a female protagonist and ogling hot guys basically never get localized. It sucks, I know, but can we please get past this outdated eurocentrism? All it takes is a few words to qualify that you're only talking about your own culture, not everyone else's, and that's especially important when your made-up game title is clearly not something that would be made in Europe or America.

Since he clearly outlined what specific parts of the games are problems, it's safe to assume games that do not have those problems are excluded from criticism.

No, he specifically stated, in his final argument, that the unrealistic portrayal of women in games and other media is problem, while the unrealistic portrayal of men is not, because both are primarily designed to appeal to men. I responded that I am currently living in a nation which produces a significant portion of the world's games in which this is untrue. He is not required to address this situation, but it is his responsibility to acknowledge the existence of circumstances differing from those he describes and the limited scope of his own observations.

In a multicultural industry like this one it is lazy and insulting to present anglosphere tropes as if they are universally applicable. It is an intellectual legacy of the modernist culture of imperialism and Movie Bob, who has devoted an episode to such things in the past, should do a better job qualifying his statements. His own inability to speak Japanese or lack of personal experience with the popular culture of Japan are no excuse.

Japan isn't totally innocent, you know. Ivy from Soul Calibur is always brought up in these sorts of discussions, and both she and her games are the products of Capcom. And she is rightly used as an example, because there is absolutely no reason for her to be dressed like that. It is not explained by her character or her storyline. The only reason she's like that is for gratuitous oogling.

This is about a problem, not about regions. I'm aware there is a bit of a problem with gamers assuming their region is the only one that exists, hell that is a problem with every form of media and sector of life. But if you're going to claim a region is totally innocent of criticisms which might be inadvertently thrown its way, the first thing you have to do is be correct. Which in this case, I'm afraid you aren't.

I never said that Japan doesn't sexualize women or design female characters to appeal to men, I said that Japan also sexualizes men and designs male characters to appeal to women (and includes this in marketing) in precisely the way in which Movie Bob states that game developers and publishers across the board do not. That means that one of Bob's three main arguments does not apply to a region which produced a significant portion of the media he showed images of in this episode. The point I am making is that arguments of sexualization and objectification, just like all other issues, must be modified according to the environments about which they occur. I am only requesting that people making speeches acknowledge that they are making them about a particular culture or area of experience and then stick to that. In this case, all he would have to do is specify that he is referring to the English language gaming community and the publishers which service it. After all, even portrayals in Japanese games need to be re-evaluated when they are selectively translated and released in an entirely different cultural context.