The Big Picture: Tropes vs. MovieBob

[jmarquiso]

Gamers have faced discrimination and insulting stereotypes directed toward them as well. You could say that its not as bad or as LONG as have women suffered. But when you consider that we had to go through a Supreme Court case just to defend the art-value of video games a few years ago; are sometimes mixed with the "D&D Nerd" stereotype Hollywood uses in their films for slasher films; and China/Korea are leading a campaign to express how dangerous "Internet addiction" is from youths playing too much video games, I think it shouldn't be surprising that gamers would get defensive. So I respect what the Feminists are saying--but being as nice (or as snobbish and jaded as Bob is here) as possible when saying this to gamers than, well, how are you surprised again that gamers would retaliate like this?

EVERY artistic medium in the last 200 years have gone to the Supreme Court to defend its art value - because of attempts to legislate against new art forms, up to and including comics and motion pictures. The results of this were not legal censorship, but generally the formation of groups and agreements like the MPAA and the Comics Code that exist to preserve the right to free speech through voluntary self-regulation.

Now here's the thing, you don't see film buffs reacting this way when their hobby is "under fire" for having problems with how women, men, etc. are portrayed. Or even if there's a reaction from PETA (hello Humane Society approved "No Animals Were Harmed").

Do you know why there tends to be more diversity in films than video games (not saying there's a LOT more, but there IS more) - feminists, minorities, moral crusaders, lobby groups and art critics have and STILL ARE fought for representation through lawsuits, awareness campaigns, criticism, and money. Money has historically been the most persuasive method, as they're shouting "we are a demographic that should be marketed to" has been great business. This is why the extreme right have an entire market for Christian films, why Tyler Perry has a repeatable audience, and why Quentin Tarantino can make Kill Bill - because groups went out of their way to be heard and say that they have a right to watch art that appeals to them. How does Hollywood handle it? Through experimenting with the demo. They hear demand for a certain kind of film, with specific actors, and they work hard on attracting an untapped market. How do film fans handle it? They watch the films they want to watch, praise them or critique them depending on their reaction.

Part of the responsibility of being an art form is the ability to take criticism, and learn from it. Nothing exists in a vacuum, and representation of women and minorities - while still a problem in Hollywood - is much less of a problem then it used to be. Every once in awhile you'll hear about a minority group handing out "report cards" to TV and Hollywood studios for representation, and the two major Hollywood trade magazines (Variety and the Hollywood Reporter) actually take it seriously. These groups have enough power to influence both box office money as well as public image. And while people might cry "Political Correctness", the evidence is there. We finally have asian-americans in lead roles, for example (long gap between the last few years and Bruce Lee). We have female action heroes. We have female gross-out comedies. This has happened because some executive somewhere listened to the idea that an untapped market is valuable.

Why are we not seeing games made from Feminists? I'm not talking about a triple-A, "Goddess of War" kind of game to rival Kratos (Kratala?), but something made in their image that they can distribute. Release it as a Flash game on Newgrounds or as an Indie game on Xbox Live Arcade. SUPPORT game designers fresh out of College or laid off by hiring them to help you make the game YOU want!

Money. Feminist games have not been proving as anything but a niche market because, well, part of the problem is that male gamers don't make it a welcoming environment. Not to say there haven't been games that made the attempt. Hey Baby (http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/sexist/2010/06/02/hey-baby-the-first-person-shooter/) is one extreme example of a feminist game.

And while we constantly revile the "casual market", these games are a resounding success, and has created a demand for games aimed at women and young girls. Guess what? It's already happening. What stands in its way are reactions like the ones to tropes vs. women here.

Article after article is written here about wanting more women in the industry. They are in the minority at the moment, and sexual harassment is actually a problem within game companies. This is changing, slowly but surely. Sophie Houlden is an indie game maker that's one of my favorites. Also Take a look at http://www.womeningamesjobs.com/

 

[jmarquiso]

My favorite Soul Calibur character was actually Ivy, but she also had a more sensible outfit at one point - http://www.subnova.com/library/view/sc2/ivy-2p.jpg

That's my favorite.

 

[Harbinger_]

I'd like to see a video on Tropes vs. MovieBob: Violence in video games.

Also the reverse does happen. Boy-bands and media tell women they need a person in Uniform, or someone who lives on a farm with straw in their hair and can routinely bench-press 320 lbs. (With no interest in video games either or anything that could even come close to be considered geeky.)

Also I'd like to argue about feminism and the darker parts of gender equality but thats an entirely different animal.

 

[harvz]

This is a huge area that really does need to be explored and examined, but it worries me if she overlooks certain areas such as the origin. many of these stereotypes come from Japan, not just America and its all seen a little differently depending on the origin.
If she covers all the bases and keeps it at a higher level, i would be extremely interested in seeing this pan out.

the absolute worst thing i can see coming out of this, over the long term, is companies actively trying to appease the female audience (in the way they seem to in the past) and every female character that comes out is essentially a female master chief (dull, uninteresting, violating norms as if she's allergic to them).

each character (male or female, shouldn't be any difference on a personality level) should have their personal likes, their dislikes and which societal norms they choose to follow (do they like jeans, shorts, skirts or dresses? the norm for a male is more limited to the first two while the range is larger for women but i wouldn't be offended if a game had a male cross-dresser as a main character, but just as breasts size shouldn't define women, an unusual choice for a man shouldn't define him either).

I think the best way of doing it is like how i saw planet side 2 E3 coverage, the women in that game could have DD's or A's, doesn't matter because they're there to do the same job as the guys, in essentially the same armor.

 

[jmarquiso]

Does anyone already own a copyright to "big boob panty ninja"? If not I've got a game to make.

She'll be a female protagonist who needs to dress sexy to get close to her assassination targets because her voluptuous physique make all the sneaking around in the dark quite impossible for her. I'll also have her suffer from back problems and self esteem issues. I'll also give her a more realistic looking sister who is an all around better ninja (think protoman in relation to megaman when he is first introduced) that she want to be better than. This would probably make a good manga the more I think this out...

In all seriousness, I've always debunked the argument of the mountain of muscle argument as that is an obtainable goal if you put in the time an effort to get that buff. A female will not however (without surgery) ever be able to turn into Ayane; no matter how much time or effort they put in to transforming themselves. Both images are unrealistic but one is impossible for all but a few.

Velvet Assassin, and an adventure game about Mata Hari.

The new Assassin's Creed 3 Vita game is about a bi-racial female assassin, and I'm looking forward to that. They flash an image of her in victorian clothing, too.

 

[ultrachicken]

And I've mentioned it before on this site, and again I don't want to make any assumptions but isn't being beautiful a fantasy for women like being a badass is for men?
And if that is the case, couldn't that also contribute to why nearly every female character has a super model appearance, even the ones who don't dress like they run their clothes through a lawnmower?

It is a fantasy that applies to both men and women, and it's why we have Nathan Drake who appeals to the suave, charming "swashbuckler" fantasy as well as the other super-model female characters. However, we also have characters like Marcus Fenix and Kratos, who, while muscular, are also extremely ugly. These characters fulfill the grizzled badass fantasy. Look at Gordon Freeman, who doesn't look particularly handsome, yet serves to put the player in the shoes of an intelligent survivalist nerd who saves the day. You will rarely if ever spot a female protagonist that matches either of those descriptions.

And while this is slightly off-topic, the proportion of male-to-female protagonists in games says a lot about the industry, as well as the ratio of developed male protagonists to female. While there are a lot of blank slates with both genders, male protagonists are far more likely to get characterization. Females are usually restricted to Bioware-style protagonists or having few traits beyond "sexy."

 

[jmarquiso]

Complaining that videogames cater to men is like complaining that the Oxygen channel caters to women; there's going to be pandering and NO ONE SHOULD CARE

Except there are other channels to turn to. Games have less options.

Oxygen came from women demanding it, and viacom realizing it had an untapped audience to sell advertising to. Games could have the larger market, too, if they just listen.

 

[WitherVoice]

--snip--

MovieBob kinda just answered your question. It's not that people want ugly women in video games, but they do want them to be normal. Why? Because, as MovieBob said, this stereotype of women creates an unrealistic expectation of women in the real world. The fact that you just mentioned "ugly" women, kind of already proves my point. The fact that your kneejerk reaction was: "oh, we're talking about women who are not skinny D-cupped oversexualized Bayonettas, so we must be talking about 'ugly' women" means that even if you haven't latched onto the stereotype, it has already seeped into your brain a little. Think on that for a while.

I know my post was REALLY long, but yea, I know, I already got there in my post. The problem, which I did touch on in my post but didn't spell out so much (since GOD the post was already long) has more to do with: like it or not, this issue is pretty gender-equalized already. In fiction as a whole, portrayals of men and women are of similar quality. The only difference is, men rarely take issue with the ridiculously stereotyped, trope-ridden portrayals of men. Women suffer WORSE here than men do, but they do not suffer alone, just in ways that are more immediately measurable. Gender inequality in the workplace is fairly quantifiable, to the point where I'm sure you could work out specifics on how much each inch of hip-to-waist ratio is worth.

As for wanting "normal" women in games, that's... a bit of a pipe dream. Successful games seem to need some manner of conflict in them, and "normal" people do terrible in conflicts, and in the end make for lousy protagonists, no matter their gender. Extraordinary people last longer. There are no unflatteringly flabby, out-of-shape office-working male protagonists in fiction, either. The quality of portrayal in men and women is about the same, but a functional yet not very GOOD portrayal of a woman gets you CRUCIFIED, but nobody bats an eyelid about a cardboard-cutout male stereotype parade. Simply put, the standards for writing women are unreasonable; there are not enough truly good writers out there to write the amount of stories humanity wants to be told.

 

[jmarquiso]

Thank christ you are not grand arbiter of what qualifies as "knowlegable".

Hey! I've got an idea! Let's ignore everything she's done up until now and focus on her credentials, I'm sure the fact that she has shown herself on numerous occassions to be pretty much clueless shouldn't factor into that.

There's one person who's dug themselves into an embarassing hole here, and it sure as hell isn't Ms. Sarkeersian.

You're right, you did dig yourself into a whole.

What's funny is Matt_LRR has a lot more demonstrated expertise in making videos on the internet then you seem to, but you still have the right to complain about it on a message board.

 

[jmarquiso]

As for wanting "normal" women in games, that's... a bit of a pipe dream. Successful games seem to need some manner of conflict in them, and "normal" people do terrible in conflicts, and in the end make for lousy protagonists, no matter their gender. Extraordinary people last longer. There are no unflatteringly flabby, out-of-shape office-working male protagonists in fiction, either. The quality of portrayal in men and women is about the same, but a functional yet not very GOOD portrayal of a woman gets you CRUCIFIED, but nobody bats an eyelid about a cardboard-cutout male stereotype parade. Simply put, the standards for writing women are unreasonable; there are not enough truly good writers out there to write the amount of stories humanity wants to be told.

Actually fiction evolved into putting normal people in extreme circumstances. Early mythology is ripe with characters being "the most beautiful" or "the strongest", and later on that changed to "guys just like you and I". Even John McClane's appeal was that he was a normal guy (albeit trained cop) against an extreme circumstances. One of the themes was an everyday concept of saving his failed marriage.

Normal people make better and more relatable protagonists. The latest E3 has shown (see "The Last of Us") that more grounded and realistic characters are coming, and we're going to see less muscular space marines.

 

[jmarquiso]

I've got nothing against the Tropes Vs. Women thing and its the kind of thing that needs to be around. My only beef is that their "fixed" female characters were dumb. Why use Peach in overalls and Zelda with Link's sword and shield when you could use *actual* good female characters? They are much more rare than they should be, but they do exist.

She's twisting recognizable iconography. Something far more recognizable than the few strong female leads out there (Lara Croft).

 

[Gunner 51]

I'm not really sure what to say other than this is a very professional way of dealing with the subject at hand.

The next question is what do we do about it?

I don't think there is anything that mature people can do anything about. I suppose we can all try to teach children that they shouldn't judge a person's worth purely by looks. But this is a near-impossibility as it is human nature to find someone physically desirable and ignore their personality - to some degree.

However, this isn't to say that it's not completely impossible. A good start in destroying sexism forever lies within good parenting. As for the rest of us, we should endevour to avoid buying sexist things - as doing so only tells the businessmen that this is what we want.

Personally, I don't really have a massive problem with sexism in gaming. Most of it comes from 13 year old children - who quite frankly haven't been taught by their parents that spouting sexism, misogyny and acting like a dick has no place in a civilised society. (If I were to talk sexist rubbish at that age, I'd have been feeling the back of mum's hand.)

However, with more and more women making games these days, sexism will slowly go the way of the dinosaur. But this can be expedited by adding an auto-mute to the next console generation killing sexism born of the G.I.F.T.

But on the other hand, parents have to monitor what their little darlings are saying on their consoles - and if they say something sexist - they should get punished appropriately. (Not going to happen seeing how said parents are silly or lazy enough to get their tweenage kids 18 rated games.)

 

[MrMan999]

I'm not really sure what to say other than this is a very professional way of dealing with the subject at hand.

The next question is what do we do about it?

I don't think there is anything that mature people can do anything about. I suppose we can all try to teach children that they shouldn't judge a person's worth purely by looks. But this is a near-impossibility as it is human nature to find someone physically desirable and ignore their personality - to some degree.

However, this isn't to say that it's not completely impossible. A good start in destroying sexism forever lies within good parenting. As for the rest of us, we should endevour to avoid buying sexist things - as doing so only tells the businessmen that this is what we want.

Personally, I don't really have a massive problem with sexism in gaming. Most of it comes from 13 year old children - who quite frankly haven't been taught by their parents that spouting sexism, misogyny and acting like a dick has no place in a civilised society. (If I were to talk sexist rubbish at that age, I'd have been feeling the back of mum's hand.)

However, with more and more women making games these days, sexism will slowly go the way of the dinosaur. But this can be expedited by adding an auto-mute to the next console generation killing sexism born of the G.I.F.T.

But on the other hand, parents have to monitor what their little darlings are saying on their consoles - and if they say something sexist - they should get punished appropriately. (Not going to happen seeing how said parents are silly or lazy enough to get their tweenage kids 18 rated games.)

Agreed. Bad Parenting is a big contributor to the Cesspool that is Xbox Live. What ever happened to being spanked when you did something wrong. If my mom or dad caught me saying Sexist or Obscene things I'd be sent to bed without dinner and a red arse.

 

[WitherVoice]

-snip- Even John McClane's appeal was that he was a normal guy (albeit trained cop) against an extreme circumstances. One of the themes was an everyday concept of saving his failed marriage.

Normal people make better and more relatable protagonists. The latest E3 has shown (see "The Last of Us") that more grounded and realistic characters are coming, and we're going to see less muscular space marines.

Methinks you need a better example; there is nothing normal about John McClane. The normal thing to do in Die Hard 1 would be to get taken hostage, and in the events that would have played out in that case, DIE. Or get shot more or less immediately during attempt to be a hero. Possibly shooting one bad guy, or two. Cop or no cop. John McClane has gone through that same thing four times, suffering injuries on each occasion that would kill or incapacitate ANY HUMAN BEING long before the story is through.

The reason John McClane makes an awesome hero is not because he's normal, it's because he's ridiculously abnormal. The failing marriage thing is a trope all on its own.

 

[MrMan999]

I agree that there needs to be more female characters in gaming that are more than just a sex symbol (Not that theres anything wrong with a little cheesecake). But what I don't want is for all of them to be the generic "GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRLLLL POWAH" Archetype you see a lot on tv nowadays. I want them to be actual characters, not just cardboard cutouts.

 

[Gunner 51]

I'm not really sure what to say other than this is a very professional way of dealing with the subject at hand.

The next question is what do we do about it?

I don't think there is anything that mature people can do anything about. I suppose we can all try to teach children that they shouldn't judge a person's worth purely by looks. But this is a near-impossibility as it is human nature to find someone physically desirable and ignore their personality - to some degree.

However, this isn't to say that it's not completely impossible. A good start in destroying sexism forever lies within good parenting. As for the rest of us, we should endevour to avoid buying sexist things - as doing so only tells the businessmen that this is what we want.

Personally, I don't really have a massive problem with sexism in gaming. Most of it comes from 13 year old children - who quite frankly haven't been taught by their parents that spouting sexism, misogyny and acting like a dick has no place in a civilised society. (If I were to talk sexist rubbish at that age, I'd have been feeling the back of mum's hand.)

However, with more and more women making games these days, sexism will slowly go the way of the dinosaur. But this can be expedited by adding an auto-mute to the next console generation killing sexism born of the G.I.F.T.

But on the other hand, parents have to monitor what their little darlings are saying on their consoles - and if they say something sexist - they should get punished appropriately. (Not going to happen seeing how said parents are silly or lazy enough to get their tweenage kids 18 rated games.)

Agreed. Bad Parenting is a big contributor to the Cesspool that is Xbox Live. What ever happened to being spanked when you did something wrong. If my mom or dad caught me saying Sexist or Obscene things I'd be sent to bed without dinner and a red arse.

As much as I dislike corporal punishment - but if used sparingly and wisely, I think it can work. Mostly because of the fear and embarrassment behind it.

But if used lazily and at the drop of a hat - the fear of it is gone along with the power it had. There's also the dangerous and moot point of where discipline ends and outright abuse begins. But I guess that's another discussion.

 

[MrMan999]

I'm not really sure what to say other than this is a very professional way of dealing with the subject at hand.

The next question is what do we do about it?

I don't think there is anything that mature people can do anything about. I suppose we can all try to teach children that they shouldn't judge a person's worth purely by looks. But this is a near-impossibility as it is human nature to find someone physically desirable and ignore their personality - to some degree.

However, this isn't to say that it's not completely impossible. A good start in destroying sexism forever lies within good parenting. As for the rest of us, we should endevour to avoid buying sexist things - as doing so only tells the businessmen that this is what we want.

Personally, I don't really have a massive problem with sexism in gaming. Most of it comes from 13 year old children - who quite frankly haven't been taught by their parents that spouting sexism, misogyny and acting like a dick has no place in a civilised society. (If I were to talk sexist rubbish at that age, I'd have been feeling the back of mum's hand.)

However, with more and more women making games these days, sexism will slowly go the way of the dinosaur. But this can be expedited by adding an auto-mute to the next console generation killing sexism born of the G.I.F.T.

But on the other hand, parents have to monitor what their little darlings are saying on their consoles - and if they say something sexist - they should get punished appropriately. (Not going to happen seeing how said parents are silly or lazy enough to get their tweenage kids 18 rated games.)

Agreed. Bad Parenting is a big contributor to the Cesspool that is Xbox Live. What ever happened to being spanked when you did something wrong. If my mom or dad caught me saying Sexist or Obscene things I'd be sent to bed without dinner and a red arse.

As much as I dislike corporal punishment - but if used sparingly and wisely, I think it can work. Mostly because of the fear and embarrassment behind it.

But if used lazily and at the drop of a hat - the fear of it is gone along with the power it had. There's also the dangerous and moot point of where discipline ends and outright abuse begins. But I guess that's another discussion.

I never said corporal punishment should be used frequently. My point was that parents should discipline their kids for saying stupid shit. Pardon my french.

 

[Maldeus]

Bob talks about how you can demonstrate that absurd physical ideals in video games can actually ripple out and make it more likely that you don't get a job if you're not pretty enough, but the truth is that the opposite is true. HR departments are staffed primarily BY WOMEN, and if women are responding to any stupid, petty emotions rather than the criterion they're actually being paid to evaluate (which, let's be honest, is what the average office drone is going to do 9/10 regardless of sex), they're going to make sure the pretty women don't get the job so that there's less competition for whatever guy they want to have an office fling with. Also, the male unemployment rate is higher than the female, graduation rates at almost every level are higher for females than for males, and the male life expectancy is significantly lower than that of the female. Not related to anything Bob said explicitly, but definitely related to his implied "women have everything so much harder" tract. That's a popular narrative, but it is demonstrably true that men have it significantly worse in at least a few important ways.

Also, regardless of the merit of the video series itself, the fact is that the person receiving the funds for this kickstarter is demonstrably capable of making (and, via the YouTube Partners program, profiting from) these sorts of videos already, which raises the question as to where this money is actually going, especially since her method of fundraising has been extremely dishonest so far. She keeps complaining about all the trolls and talking about how discouraged she is because it turns out that people on the internet are jerks sometimes, but if she was actually offended by any of the comments she could've just deleted them. She was always in control here, and pretending that she's being victimized is dishonest...Although evidently also profitable.

 

[jmarquiso]

Finally, as ForeverPanadering said: "This is nothing but self-congratulating crap. We will learn nothing new from this series, nor will we get anything deeply analytical out of it. Its a waste of time and money."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igXz_hXKUcE&feature=plcp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mZgTgublaY&feature=plcp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?src_vid=9mZgTgublaY&v=kxWwPZI_4RQ&feature=iv&annotation_id=annotation_677377

This is the real criticism. But instead you whine about the 4chaner's. Bravo Moviebob, bravo.

If that was the real criticism, then the ones that did troll and use sexist and anti-semetic comments did a piss poor job of communicating.

00Side Note00
Hey bob, speaking of unrealistic expectations, you tried dating recently? Sure there's Mario, but no one wants to DATE him.

I married a rather attractive woman and I'm not the ideal male in any way shape or form. So, stop trying to date superficial women.

 

[Seneschal]

To those here that think Sarkeesian and Bob are raising a fuss over nothing, I urge you to use your imagination for just a second and imagine the following situation. I know this is challenging since the straight white man never has to step into the shoes of "the other", because society has unjustly pandered only to his whims, but please, for the sake of argument:

What if, hypothetically, every single mainstream video-game and facet of gamer culture was from the cultural perspective of gay males? Say, for example, the gay male version of Bayonetta would be a game with a dashing straight guy constantly forced into awkward homoerotic situations, that can only gain superpowers by kissing other men, and that needs to rip his shirt off, wear assless leather pants, and put on a ball gag just to use his special attacks. Imagine that there is no opposite to that - if you want a game from a straight male perspective, you're better of with neutered stylized casual games. This approach would not only be oppressive to straight males, by assuming that they exist only for the pleasure of gay men, but also to gay males, by assuming every single one in the audience is an exploitative, sex-crazed fetishist.

That is how females feel when playing 90% of modern mainstream games. They have every right to demand to be included and equally represented.