The Big Picture: Tropes vs. MovieBob

[ZexionSephiroth]

...And as a tiny voice in this mountain of posts.

I'm not into the "overtly" sexualized feminine image that mass media portrays. Big breasts just seem out of place sometimes, and really; I prefer athletic women body types anyways (which happen to have smaller breasts anyways in real life). Although that might be 'cause I want the girl to be my hero, rather than me be her hero; for reasons so convoluted my cracked psyche can't comprehend them all. Also, I seem to prefer my women with more clothes; as opposed to less, and am utterly opposed to dresses and skirts. And what do I want in a first date from the girl of my dreams? I want her to beat me in a duel, or save me from a mugger, or punch some guy in the face for insulting me.

In short: I seem to have a reversed idea of what the gender roles in my relationships should be.

Even worse, every time a few friends drag me off to a bar, they keep trying to set me up with some blond or other highly feminine "party girl"; and they are always annoying as hell. I don't look at them, I am not attracted to them. And often I don't even want to speak to them as any comfort they might try to give me would only open up both old and new wounds rather than give any healing effect at all.

In other words: I hate society's idea of women, as it makes women into something I don't want them to be; while also keeping me from a girl I might actually like.

I want a girl with drive, a powerful strength of will. Someone that can push me forwards when I can't stand alone, and can inspire me to move forward when I have no idea what I am fighting for. One that can stand with perfect focus on the task at hand, and all questions beyond the here and now disappear in her presence. And probably most importantly, she must have some overpowering competitive drive to do better than the others around her.

...

I have not seen one girl like this, in media or in real life that matches my idea of what my perfect girl should be. So not only is society's idea of women wrong, but I'm probably wrong in what I want them to be too.

...And at this point somebody will probably reply with a "forever alone" face. 'Cause that's what it feels like sometimes.

And now I'm going to go obsess over Rainbow Dash as my only source of comfort.

 

[A Weary Exile]

*snip*

Yes. Because she's assuming that we're all the former, when a lot of us are the latter.

As for the liquor ad: members of the same gender are often as responsible for reinforcing these gender rules we have set up. Women do it as well. I go back to Twilight as an example: a "romance" written by a woman that condones a lot of things (Stalker-y boyfriends, being submissive and completely emotionally dependent on your spouse, having kids is your #1 goal, etc.) that would be considered anti-feminist.

 

[Blunderman]

This is an awful argument, it's basically "it's just a videogame, guys" and you're diverting attention from the subject.

That is not what I meant and you know it. If you're going to respond to me, please refrain from misrepresenting my arguments. That being said, yes, it is just a video game, in the same way that it's just a film or a TV series. We have nothing to gain from exaggerating perceived inequalities in fictional media.

Idealised men is a valid thing but the frequency is negligible, which is an important point to make. Plus, it's not equal because those idealised men are male power fantasy design, not female sexual fantasy like most female characters are male sexual fantasies.

I don't disagree with you. Had you read my post properly, you would've noticed that my argument was not that MovieBob was wrong about what he said but that he's debunking an argument that isn't valid to begin with. The fact that men are also idealised is irrelevant; two wrongs do not make a right. One does not excuse the other.

Yes, there are higher-ups that DO have sexist bias in giving women jobs. Video games are the biggest entertainment industry right now, and have a big influence on culture. As such, the industry is responsible for its image. We should focus our energy on making our media more fair because there are all kinds of people that engage in this activity, not just white heterosexual males.

If someone is sexist, they're going to do sexist things. If someone is violent, they're going to commit violent acts. Violent video games do not make people violent and video games with stereotypical female characters do not make people sexist.

You are switching cause and effect around. You also seem to highly over-estimate the indoctrinating power of big boobs. The male sexual fantasies that led to the way women are portrayed existed before video games, before TV series and films, before books, before any fictional media of any kind, and they're going to exist regardless of what you do with fictional media. It's biology. Men are programmed to by default want gorgeous, big-breasted women. Those features evolved to attract men and men evolved to be attracted by them. This is just reality.

Is it still a problem that women are portrayed in this way? Of course, but not in the way you're making it out to be. It's tacky pandering to a false idea of what gamers as a group want. We're no longer all straight white guys. If someone wants to make a game targeted to straight white males, sure, they can use the stereotypical hot girl. It's not what I personally prefer but I'm not going to disabuse them, nor am I going to call them sexist for pandering to an audience.

What I would want is for that to be the exception rather than the rule, which is where the problem lies today; video games that are made for the benefit of wider audiences are crafted to appeal primarily to white heterosexual males. This we should do away with. It makes us look immature, just like the windbags on X-Box Live.

You seem to think that if only we could make entertainment media perfectly "fair," whatever that is, then we'd see less sexism in the world. You, my friend, are very naïve. Moreover, social attitudes towards women have been steadily progressing, in spite of what you call "sexist" media becoming more and more prevalent each passing year. The US is quite far behind Europe in this matter, as it is in many other areas, primarily religion and politics. We're not finished, certainly not, we still have some ways to go, but we are getting there.

 

[Aiddon_v1legacy]

I hope that new Lara Croft game starts to set an new standard for respect for female characters and women in general.

And then they put in Lara getting beat up by a bunch of men who heavily imply wanting to gang rape her. Stay classy, Eidos.

 

[nondescript]

Keeping my knee-jerk reaction to a minimum I'd say one reason games don't affect male gamers as badly is because we don't immediately start some freudian psychoanalysis on characters. this behavior is post game if ever. it doesn't help that while games have sexism issues dealing with unhealthy / unrealistic body images so do all women magazines.

 

[Masterdebator]

Pandering to either gender like that is just stupid and a problem that is encouraged by both genders. Did you know a lot of book stores have sections dedicated to "Paranormal Teen Romance" (probably) as a direct result of Twilight's popularity? They aren't even trying to hide the fact that they are basically building an industry based on pre-teen girl porn.

The figures of the women of Soul Calibur are just as bad as Twilight's writing for pretty much the same reason, they're just directed at different audiences. Having physically attractive characters (Realistic or no) isn't inherently a bad thing. Having characters serve the specific purpose of just being attractive to sell with sex should be reserved for porn and similar media. I would like to see this sort of thing done away with entirely in mainstream media, but I just don't like that people seem to think that the female side of the argument is the only valid position.

*Claps for getting it*

The issue here is not the superficial, and characters shouldn't be demonized for ultimately frivolous physical proportions.

It's the internal design of characters, and it'll only be fixed by strong writers stepping up to the plate and creating characters of a wide range of strengths, emotions, and weaknesses, that audience can come to relate to (such internal qualities are what build emotional connections between audiences and characters, as oppose to superficial qualities like race, gender, or physique).

The issue here is doing so requires a bit of effort, and it's easier (and much more profitable) to simply pander to the idiot crowds that just want hot guys and girls.

Finally, this issue affects all. To apply that men "don't care" (because we're all like megabros who want Megan Fox to be every female protagonist in everything) and women "do" (because they have the inherent ability to look past the superficial and only love "personalities") is utter cock, and frankly outs you as an individual with some seriously misguided views on genders (and arguably a sexist in your own right).

As people, we're all extremely similar at the end of the day. Things like race and gender merely act as superficial and societal differences between us.

It's a pity a number of video producers with large audiences on the internet don't realize that.

 

[Riobux]

I am shocked, shocked I tell you, to discover that there are still ivory tower polemics in academia! This is the fifth monocle this week I've lost due to the sheer volume of such discomfiting revelations.

My problem isn't just that it exists (fuck, there's plenty of sexism/racism/homophobia/etc in academia), my problem is the subject in question is one that commonly pushes equality as one of the main focus points of the subject but yet clearly allows something so contrary to it. This isn't like a company saying "we make seatbelts" and it's revealed they do but they do it badly or that they actually produce seats. This is more like a company claiming they make seatbelts and it's revealed that not only they don't produce seatbelts but they actually produce only knives designed to break seatbelts and SUVs with spikes to impale through the windscreen and into whatever occupants there currently are in the car. Less safety and more Carmageddon.

 

[Neino Ranatos]

Thanks for pointing this crap out.

When I saw the trailer for the kick-starter, I remained as objective as possible, neither allowing myself to say "Oh god, not this again!" or "Oh god, she's so right!"

In the end, I thought about it and thought, "Yes, there's plenty of stereotyping and objectifying of women in video games. But what's this woman's agenda? There's something about her tone that I don't like. I get the feeling she has a certain sense of superiority to people around her. In a way, she reminds me of Michael Moore..."

I later read that she makes a point about still being a virgin. I have yet to confirm it, but if she does indeed make that as a point to try to validate herself, it says a lot about her agenda and her view of men.

But my ultimate realization came about when I saw the hateful responses to her kick-starter trailer. At first I just thought, "Oh great, the internet's at it again." But then I realized, "Wait a minute, she wanted this to happen. She wanted to be pelted with abuse and hate so attention would be drawn to her kick-starter and she'd get the funds she needs. Not only that, but she could possibly use that abuse as ammunition to push the extreme not-feminist idea that men are inferior to women (if that's her agenda, I honestly don't know, it only occurred as a possibility)."

And then, in my best Australian accent, "Clever girl!"

So from there, I decided to ignore this fiasco. Because the abuse is not being caused by the video games themselves, which I think she believes. The abuse is a symptom of larger problems within the gamer and geek cultures. Her video isn't going to change that in either direction, and she herself will be forgotten until she finds another powder keg of a demographic to set off.

And if you haven't noticed, I haven't addressed her by name. Because I don't remember it, even with it being mentioned in the kick-starter promo and this Big Picture episode. Because she is so small compared to the larger issue that is root of the misogyny that exists within gamer/geek culture.

I'm leaning on this side of thinking.

Don't get me wrong. I think that the gratuitous over-sexualization of women is repulsive where pointless. (Guess what? I'm a heterosexual white male.) However, when people start speaking of equality, it also isn't uncommon to hear the over-demonization also. Yes, heterosexual white men are a majority. No, this doesn't mean that heterosexual white men are evil. The thing about equality is approaching it without a holier-than-thou attitude. Why? Because equality=/=superiority.

Don't get me wrong. The woman in the video is discussing a valid issue and bringing equality to games is a cause I support wholeheartedly. What I don't want to see however, is a hostile takeover. And before you go saying "You're just afraid of something different" or "It's never going to happen, get over it."; Yes, I know the likelihood of it happening is incredibly low and virtually impossible. However, this is when we approach the area of "What happens when the minority can strike back against the majority?"

tl'dr: I digress, so let me put it in simpler terms what I'm trying to get across:

1. I support equality in video game portrayals.

2. By supporting equality in video game portrayals, this means I support both female and male fantasies being portrayed in fair portion. Video gaming is an entertainment medium and as such, the ridiculous hyper-sexualization, while not good in excess, still has its place in a self-serving fantasy medium. This goes for both genders.

3. I do not support either side taking chances to flip the bird with their products. Just make the product, make it good, and be done. This means I will not support an individual who uses their cause to make it a pedestal of superiority as opposed to another group of people.

4. I don't demonize women who want to be equal. I dislike the ones that view the other gender as inferior. In the same respect, my views are the same with men. Equality means that everyone is given an equal chance, not just the minority. Don't shamelessly pander to either majority or minority is what I'm saying.

and finally, 5. Basically, you can have your equal share, but if you screw with mine, we have a problem. There is room for both representations in rational portion and trying to demand for more of than another person only ruins it for both of us.

 

[Riobux]

My problem isn't just that it exists (fuck, there's plenty of sexism/racism/homophobia/etc in academia), my problem is the subject in question is one that commonly pushes equality as one of the main focus points of the subject but yet clearly allows something so contrary to it.

Yeah, weirdos hijacking an ideology to justify acting like dicks. That's a real novelty.

I guess what I'm saying is that I don't why this particular example pisses you off more than the others.

As in the film? It doesn't piss me off more than other examples in general sociology, but it just reminds me of how annoying it is to be involved in something so contradictory.

... I think I got a head injury from that analogy. Mostly because it seems to be saying that the entire feminist movement is the car company from Fight Club.

Less subtle than the car company from Fight Club. More just Twisted Metal and Carmageddon in how obvious and shamelessly they do it.

 

[Contradiction]

Every time I see this stuff it pains me. Seriously. Anita deserves no attention.
I'm not saying that sexism doesn't exist, it does. I'm not saying we don't have to work on that. What I am saying is that Anita isn't a quality speaker for any cause.
First off SHE REVIEWS EVERY COMMENT BEFORE THEY GET ON HER CHANNEL.
This whole thing happened and YOU saw it because SHE wanted you to. Usually she blocks under the grounds of making it a safe and respectful place to discuss feminism by which she means her videos. That generally doesn't leave room for discussion even level headed and well meant discussion but that's okay, because she had a point, there should be a safe place.
I see people read one sensationalist written article about her and start funding her kickstarter because of the backlash. Have you seen her other stuff? Did you look? Did you care? Or were you blindly throwing money to 'fight misogyny'?
If any of the former, good, glad you've weighed in on the serious issues that she represents in her work. If not you are the problem.
Beyond the sheeple point...
Yeah I don't personally like her work. She does often bring up very important issues but they are more often than not mired in hyperbole and hysteria. Without listening to the final wrap up of Tropes vs. Women #2 (women in refrigerators) and adhering to every point she made the only acceptable women characters are ones that are as strong or stronger than relating male characters that can't or rather shouldn't die or experience power loss and if that were to somehow happen it musn't be of any meaning to, or resulting in, the furthering of relating male characters' plot or character arcs.
She then proceeds to bring up violence against women without going into depth on how it exactly relates nor how the industry can relate the issue into their work. Comics are violent. That's the reality.
Its not that I don't see that there are 'Tropes' that women get assigned but revealing something most are aware of is pointless and she really doesn't address a practical progression into acceptable terms as much as she address her gripes with the issue itself.
Talking about powers and plot what about Animal Man's daughter Maxine Baker, Jean Grey, Scarlet Witch and Abby Holland. I mean God, the only reason Animal Man even exists as a super hero is because the RED (think after life for all fauna) needed a protector for Maxine until she was ready to become God of all fauna

 

[cervie]

There hasn't been a good Big-Boobed Panty-Ninja since VII. And Big-Boobed Panty-Ninja X-2: More Panties was the worst idea ever. They should just quit now.

The sixaxis jiggle physics control in Big-Boobed Panty Ninja 9 was the last good thing about the franchize. Breast attacks were easy to learn, but hard to master...

*Sigh* I wonder if Bob knew what kind of monster he created with this gamer joke.

I expect in a year or so, we will see an actual fan made copy of Big-Boobed Panty Ninja 1, in all its 8-bit, side scrolling glory.

 

[BNguyen]

If the whole feminist idea is to gain equal representation and placement as men in all walks of life, then they have to stop pushing that all women in media formats have to be "mentally and physically equal to men". This itself is unrealistic as it does not represent all of women but rather the empowerment they feel they are entitled to. Look at how men are portrayed, men come in hundreds of physical characteristics, mental characteristics, ethnic characteristics, and religious backgrounds. To achieve equality, women have to represented in all of these forms to the same degree.
That means there will always have to be: strong, idiots, weak, lazy, fat, intelligent, zealots (that includes "straw feminists"), and subjected (slaves, laborers, etc.) etc. types of female characters, but even then we would probably still see complaining.

And what I found confusing was that MovieBob did not talk about how he mentioned the old Hercules video and how he said that characters like those we invented not only for young children to have heroes but for women to have "fantasies", so yes, even men have been used as sexual fantasies and in some small cases are still used as such and now it is very rare to see male characters that fit into a wide range of differing archetypes, so even men are now being minimalized down to a simple form, the same as most female characters.

Now I don't know if my opinion is entirely valid but to me, men have had much more 'elbow room' in terms of position and life roles, so it is only natural to see them in so many roles in media, but it was only recently that women have begun to break out of their stereotypical roles into different fields, thus there is not yet sufficient character models to go off of to create interesting and various female characters at this time.

Now I can't say I've see every video by that woman but from what I have seen, she tends to push every female character that isn't the main one from Hunger Games to be wrong in design and then she complains that free media needs to change to fit for stronger female leads. I find this a problem because she is trying to push limitations on creators and developers by stating quite clearly what they should and should not do. And if feminists have such problems with straw feminists, then push to have realistic feminists also included to point out the problems that straw feminists present to your groups. Simply getting rid of them in media does not get rid of them in real life.

I'm not against women having equal representation but I am against people trying to impose their will onto others under the banner of "equality".




Now I have the feeling a certain commentator will give feedback on my post so give me your opinion first before bashing mine.

 

[Lieju]

Play different kinds of games and you'll get those different body types. Clearly from the vid Bob plays mostly Western titles and titles targeted at the West and the Beach Babe Fetish Types. Really, I'm not joking that the Flat Chested, Unemotional, Business Lady is a fetish in Japan and I know for a fact they have games with character just like that.

And? You can definitely find different types of female characters in games, but looking at the mainstream games, not so much. What you're saying that it's okay because there are some niche markets for them, or that there are some. That's like saying that since there are some games without racism, racism is totally okay in games.

Besides, you are missing the point here, by pointing to characters that are completely fetishized, and so intended to be sex-objects even more so. When the point is that female characters in games shouldn't be always designed with just their sex appeal in mind.

Their are far better arguments about Sexism and Womens Rights then this one.
The right to vote, the right not to be bartered and traded as property, the right to work, the right for equal pay, and so on.

The argument of Women shouldn't be seen sexually is one that only has two outcomes. The only 3rd option is to ignore the argument entirely because the outcomes are unacceptable.

Who is arguing that women shouldn't be seen sexually? You? It seems like you're turning this argument into something Bob never said, so you can more easily refute it.

Besides, what stops one from caring about this issue and also about how these attitudes affect people more directly in real life?

 

[LadyRhian]

*snip*

Yes. Because she's assuming that we're all the former, when a lot of us are the latter.

As for the liquor ad: members of the same gender are often as responsible for reinforcing these gender rules we have set up. Women do it as well. I go back to Twilight as an example: a "romance" written by a woman that condones a lot of things (Stalker-y boyfriends, being submissive and completely emotionally dependent on your spouse, having kids is your #1 goal, etc.) that would be considered anti-feminist.

Since you snipped out my response, I have no idea to which of my responses you are responding. And for the record, Stephanie Meyer is Mormon, her religion informed her idea of a "perfect romance" and I disliked Twilight intensely. So did just about everyone I know who read it, the rest of them just didn't care for it. I got icked out by a man breaking into a woman's house to watch her sleep. To use an internetism. so much DO NOT WANT.

 

[Vault101]

I disagree

Kratos isnt attractive...I wouldnt want that shit within 10 miles of me

 

[jmarquiso]

Gamers have faced discrimination and insulting stereotypes directed toward them as well. You could say that its not as bad or as LONG as have women suffered. But when you consider that we had to go through a Supreme Court case just to defend the art-value of video games a few years ago; are sometimes mixed with the "D&D Nerd" stereotype Hollywood uses in their films for slasher films; and China/Korea are leading a campaign to express how dangerous "Internet addiction" is from youths playing too much video games, I think it shouldn't be surprising that gamers would get defensive. So I respect what the Feminists are saying--but being as nice (or as snobbish and jaded as Bob is here) as possible when saying this to gamers than, well, how are you surprised again that gamers would retaliate like this?

EVERY artistic medium in the last 200 years have gone to the Supreme Court to defend its art value - because of attempts to legislate against new art forms, up to and including comics and motion pictures. The results of this were not legal censorship, but generally the formation of groups and agreements like the MPAA and the Comics Code that exist to preserve the right to free speech through voluntary self-regulation.

Now here's the thing, you don't see film buffs reacting this way when their hobby is "under fire" for having problems with how women, men, etc. are portrayed. Or even if there's a reaction from PETA (hello Humane Society approved "No Animals Were Harmed").

Do you know why there tends to be more diversity in films than video games (not saying there's a LOT more, but there IS more) - feminists, minorities, moral crusaders, lobby groups and art critics have and STILL ARE fought for representation through lawsuits, awareness campaigns, criticism, and money. Money has historically been the most persuasive method, as they're shouting "we are a demographic that should be marketed to" has been great business. This is why the extreme right have an entire market for Christian films, why Tyler Perry has a repeatable audience, and why Quentin Tarantino can make Kill Bill - because groups went out of their way to be heard and say that they have a right to watch art that appeals to them. How does Hollywood handle it? Through experimenting with the demo. They hear demand for a certain kind of film, with specific actors, and they work hard on attracting an untapped market. How do film fans handle it? They watch the films they want to watch, praise them or critique them depending on their reaction.

Part of the responsibility of being an art form is the ability to take criticism, and learn from it. Nothing exists in a vacuum, and representation of women and minorities - while still a problem in Hollywood - is much less of a problem then it used to be. Every once in awhile you'll hear about a minority group handing out "report cards" to TV and Hollywood studios for representation, and the two major Hollywood trade magazines (Variety and the Hollywood Reporter) actually take it seriously. These groups have enough power to influence both box office money as well as public image. And while people might cry "Political Correctness", the evidence is there. We finally have asian-americans in lead roles, for example (long gap between the last few years and Bruce Lee). We have female action heroes. We have female gross-out comedies. This has happened because some executive somewhere listened to the idea that an untapped market is valuable.

Why are we not seeing games made from Feminists? I'm not talking about a triple-A, "Goddess of War" kind of game to rival Kratos (Kratala?), but something made in their image that they can distribute. Release it as a Flash game on Newgrounds or as an Indie game on Xbox Live Arcade. SUPPORT game designers fresh out of College or laid off by hiring them to help you make the game YOU want!

Money. Feminist games have not been proving as anything but a niche market because, well, part of the problem is that male gamers don't make it a welcoming environment. Not to say there haven't been games that made the attempt. Hey Baby (http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/sexist/2010/06/02/hey-baby-the-first-person-shooter/) is one extreme example of a feminist game.

And while we constantly revile the "casual market", these games are a resounding success, and has created a demand for games aimed at women and young girls. Guess what? It's already happening. What stands in its way are reactions like the ones to tropes vs. women here.

Article after article is written here about wanting more women in the industry. They are in the minority at the moment, and sexual harassment is actually a problem within game companies. This is changing, slowly but surely. Sophie Houlden is an indie game maker that's one of my favorites. Also Take a look at http://www.womeningamesjobs.com/

 

[jmarquiso]

My favorite Soul Calibur character was actually Ivy, but she also had a more sensible outfit at one point - http://www.subnova.com/library/view/sc2/ivy-2p.jpg

That's my favorite.

 

[Harbinger_]

I'd like to see a video on Tropes vs. MovieBob: Violence in video games.

Also the reverse does happen. Boy-bands and media tell women they need a person in Uniform, or someone who lives on a farm with straw in their hair and can routinely bench-press 320 lbs. (With no interest in video games either or anything that could even come close to be considered geeky.)

Also I'd like to argue about feminism and the darker parts of gender equality but thats an entirely different animal.