The Big Picture: Tropes vs. MovieBob

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Guilherme Zoldan

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Am I alone in finding the whole concept of "sexualy objectified" to be a load of oversensitive wank?
At least the way people use it. I can understand getting pissed about being treated as nothing more then a walking-talking sex doll(Or turned on by it if youre fucked up like me). But it seems people trow about the term "Sexual object" at any kind of sex appeal.
I would like to inform you all that just because someone thinks youre sexy, this does not mean that they think you are less then human.

Oh and unrelated but thinking an angry feminist girl who makes videos on the internet is enough of a threat to society that we should reconsider freedom of speach is just sad and stupid.
 

chronobreak

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Has MovieBob even been in this thread yet? Or, as I've seen him do before, is he just going to make his comments without defending them? Come on, now. There are more problems with this Kickstarter than people trolling, be them of the ethical or integrity variety.

Not only can you vote with your wallet, but you can also report the Kickstarter if you have a real problem with the methodology or integrity of the project: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/566429325/tropes-vs-women-in-video-games/report/new
 

itsthesheppy

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Guilherme Zoldan said:
Am I alone in finding the whole concept of "sexualy objectified" to be a load of oversensitive wank?
At least the way people use it. I can understand getting pissed about being treated as nothing more then a walking-talking sex doll(Or turned on by it if youre fucked up like me). But it seems people trow about the term "Sexual object" at any kind of sex appeal.
I would like to inform you all that just because someone thinks youre sexy, this does not mean that they think you are less then human.

Oh and unrelated but thinking an angry feminist girl who makes videos on the internet is enough of a threat to society that we should reconsider freedom of speach is just sad and stupid.
You're not the only one to label feminist issues as 'oversensitive wank'. you're actually in the strong, overwhelming majority in that opinion. That's part of the problem. But at least you're in good company. Well... perhaps not 'good' company, but certainly voluminous company.
 

Guilherme Zoldan

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itsthesheppy said:
Guilherme Zoldan said:
Am I alone in finding the whole concept of "sexualy objectified" to be a load of oversensitive wank?
At least the way people use it. I can understand getting pissed about being treated as nothing more then a walking-talking sex doll(Or turned on by it if youre fucked up like me). But it seems people trow about the term "Sexual object" at any kind of sex appeal.
I would like to inform you all that just because someone thinks youre sexy, this does not mean that they think you are less then human.

Oh and unrelated but thinking an angry feminist girl who makes videos on the internet is enough of a threat to society that we should reconsider freedom of speach is just sad and stupid.
You're not the only one to label feminist issues as 'oversensitive wank'. you're actually in the strong, overwhelming majority in that opinion. That's part of the problem. But at least you're in good company. Well... perhaps not 'good' company, but certainly voluminous company.
When did I say all feminist issues were like that? Did you just read the first phrase of what I wrote? I just think "sexualy objectified" is used way too often and way too lightly.
 
Sep 24, 2008
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I find that people who hand wave guys being sexualized in media forget or over look that the pressures men put on women (yes, they are there) are the pressures that they put on fellow men. We can all say that most of porn was made for men, by men. And we are a fitting demographic of maleness at this stage of life, as most of us are over weight and can not serve as a genital double for a horse. But who do we cast as the few men in the world who are really fit and abnormally huge.

It isn't to say that we aren't sexualizing women. and it isn't to say that it is not bad. I'm not handwaving it away. What I'm saying is that when you make it about one group, you lessen the impact for everyone else. Like my previous post, if I really cry out that MovieBob for the most part put up white people so I'm exempt from the point, a good number of you who aren't like me would go 'really? another group being whiny?!' even if I'm just one guy.

If we dealt with the concept as a whole, instead of Bob or others kind of admit it happens, but it's more egregious because one segment has dealt with it for so long... we'd make make some headway. This tactic, however, divides us all. And instead of wanting to rally with the women so they can be less hypersexualized, I kind of want to go into my own camp and beat the war drum to why (as a Black male) haven't I had my power fantasy fulfilled. And I'm sure of video gaming female cousin will eventually want to know why her fantasy of being a strong black female wasn't fulfilled. Then the gays, native Americans, Eskimos (I honestly don't know if that's a racial slur now), Buddhist, Hindus.... Everyone will become a political party instead of one people rallying for fairness.
 

Schadrach

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itsthesheppy said:
Schadrach said:
itsthesheppy said:
You, like many others, are falling into the trap of suggesting that you have better ideas for this woman about how she could be spending her time. That perhaps she should be working directly with game developers rather than being all uppity and making noise you would rather not have to hear. You may or may not be aware that you're doing it, but it's known in the feminist parlance as 'mansplaining'.

Mansplaining is when a guy tells a woman (or anyone else, I suppose) that he has a better idea about what she is trying to do, or say. Putting himself in the automatic position of authority and talking down to that individual, educating them about the err of their ways or the superior way of going about something. Even if the intent is altruistic (I have no reason to believe you have anything but the best intentions in mind), it is condescending.
Yes, mansplaining, where we invent a pejorative for "disagreeing with a woman while male" to use as a silencing tactic.

You know, if we reverse the genders on it, it sounds exactly like what she's raised a large sum of money to do, strangely enough. But then, it can't be some variety of 'splaining when she does it, because the whole point is to be able to use it as a blanket silencing tactic when someone from the wrong demographic disagrees.
That it's such a common thing for men to see her criticism as attacks on them, personally, makes me think that for a lot of people, what she says or intends to say is hitting very home with some folks. You see, the difference is that she is criticizing tropes in popular culture. What many people in this thread and beyond are doing is criticizing her, personally, and suggesting that their ideas are superior. Based on no evidence whatsoever. There is a difference between those two things.
At no point did I suggest that her criticism was personal or directed at me as an individual (which would be ridiculous, as we've never spoken), merely that it was functionally equivalent to 'splaining.

As for evidence, it's not like these are her first videos ever or anything. She has a pretty decently large library of them she's created in the past, including the series "Tropes vs Women" that this series is presumably a sequel to. Her research is shoddy, half the time it seems like she doesn't even bother to watch/read/listen to/play the thing she's discussing, she jumps to conclusions like analysis is a form of double-dutch, and frankly, she's an idiot.

Going to do some pronoun swaps to your previous quote:

Anita tells a man (or group that is presumed by her to be predominately male)(or anyone else, I suppose) that she has a better idea about what he/they are trying to do, or say. Putting herself in the automatic position of authority and talking down to that individual/group, educating them about the err of their ways or the superior way of going about something. Even if the intent is altruistic, it is condescending.
No, really, that does sound *exactly* like what she does.
 

itsthesheppy

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Guilherme Zoldan said:
itsthesheppy said:
Guilherme Zoldan said:
Am I alone in finding the whole concept of "sexualy objectified" to be a load of oversensitive wank?
At least the way people use it. I can understand getting pissed about being treated as nothing more then a walking-talking sex doll(Or turned on by it if youre fucked up like me). But it seems people trow about the term "Sexual object" at any kind of sex appeal.
I would like to inform you all that just because someone thinks youre sexy, this does not mean that they think you are less then human.

Oh and unrelated but thinking an angry feminist girl who makes videos on the internet is enough of a threat to society that we should reconsider freedom of speach is just sad and stupid.
You're not the only one to label feminist issues as 'oversensitive wank'. you're actually in the strong, overwhelming majority in that opinion. That's part of the problem. But at least you're in good company. Well... perhaps not 'good' company, but certainly voluminous company.
When did I say all feminist issues were like that? Did you just read the first phrase of what I wrote? I just think "sexualy objectified" is used way too often and way too lightly.
Perhaps. Though in this case we don't exactly know what specifically she might say is or isn't objectification, so there's no point really talking about in in this particular case. As in, how it pertains to her (as yet unmade) video series.

Objectification is a matter of degrees. We'd really have to be talking specific examples.
 

itsthesheppy

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Schadrach said:
itsthesheppy said:
Schadrach said:
itsthesheppy said:
You, like many others, are falling into the trap of suggesting that you have better ideas for this woman about how she could be spending her time. That perhaps she should be working directly with game developers rather than being all uppity and making noise you would rather not have to hear. You may or may not be aware that you're doing it, but it's known in the feminist parlance as 'mansplaining'.

Mansplaining is when a guy tells a woman (or anyone else, I suppose) that he has a better idea about what she is trying to do, or say. Putting himself in the automatic position of authority and talking down to that individual, educating them about the err of their ways or the superior way of going about something. Even if the intent is altruistic (I have no reason to believe you have anything but the best intentions in mind), it is condescending.
Yes, mansplaining, where we invent a pejorative for "disagreeing with a woman while male" to use as a silencing tactic.

You know, if we reverse the genders on it, it sounds exactly like what she's raised a large sum of money to do, strangely enough. But then, it can't be some variety of 'splaining when she does it, because the whole point is to be able to use it as a blanket silencing tactic when someone from the wrong demographic disagrees.
That it's such a common thing for men to see her criticism as attacks on them, personally, makes me think that for a lot of people, what she says or intends to say is hitting very home with some folks. You see, the difference is that she is criticizing tropes in popular culture. What many people in this thread and beyond are doing is criticizing her, personally, and suggesting that their ideas are superior. Based on no evidence whatsoever. There is a difference between those two things.
At no point did I suggest that her criticism was personal or directed at me as an individual (which would be ridiculous, as we've never spoken), merely that it was functionally equivalent to 'splaining.

As for evidence, it's not like these are her first videos ever or anything. She has a pretty decently large library of them she's created in the past, including the series "Tropes vs Women" that this series is presumably a sequel to. Her research is shoddy, half the time it seems like she doesn't even bother to watch/read/listen to/play the thing she's discussing, she jumps to conclusions like analysis is a form of double-dutch, and frankly, she's an idiot.
Firstly, I didn't say you said that. I said you were acting as if you were. And not just you specifically, but a great deal of the people who are opposing this. I will say that it's not the 'functional equivalent' of the term I mentioned. You're comparing apples and oranges. She's criticizing pop culture; you're criticizing her, specifically. Which you're welcome to do, just as much as I'm welcome to tell you that you're being a condescending jerk.

As for your opinion about the content of the work she has produced so far: "Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man." And you're welcome to it. Nobody is asking you to spend a dime to support it, or even watch it. Why not just ignore it? However, you have no evidence to suggest that these future videos will be of the same quality. You're welcome to jump to that conclusion but... oops, do you see what I did there?
 

Lieju

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medv4380 said:
Lieju said:
So, you're basically saying that despite the majority of games being certain way, if you can find some niche games, it's not a problem how things are in the mainstream media. Sounds to me like you're cherrypicking here. It's you who are pointing at few games going 'See, we don't actually have problem because these obscure things exist'.

I don't choose the games I play based on how hot the women in the game are. Well, apart from certain kinds of games. But when I play games I tend to choose them based on the genre, and how good gameplay they have etc.

Again, this is not about how there shouldn't be attractive women in video-games, or that there should be no sexy female characters. Stop trying to pretend this is an argument about that.
You're the one who said "but those aren't main stream" so you're the one who's cherry picking. Cherry Picking is exclusionary. I'm including everything which is the opposite of Cherry Picking if you're having a problem with definitions.
No, I'm looking at all the games, and what the major trends in there are.
You are the one ignoring those trends in favor of examples that happen to support your argument (such as it is).

medv4380 said:
This is entirely about "women should be seen as attractive". The reason is that regardless of what type of women was in the game the views of the men playing them would be pretty much the same. They'd instantly become sex objects in the minds of some and his argument would still be the same. The argument of women are being objectified as needing to be this that or the other is ultimately women should be seen as sexy, which usually become women should be seen at all.
So now you're saying that men do not care about what women look like?
Okay, let's say men will be sexually aroused by anything with breasts.
Fine. Doesn't have anything to do with the fact that it would be nice having wellrounded, diverse female characters.

BTW, I need to ask; do you know what 'objectification' means?
That's the problem, not that some people find them attractive.

Actually, I don't care. This discussion is going around in circles, so I'm rapidly losing interest. I'll admit you're right: men don't care what women look like, and if we start to worry about how women are protrayed in media it will just lead to a world where women are just forced to be hidden away and treated like objects. Of course, then you'd have the people who have a fetish for totally covered women, so I guess we'll be better off shipping all women to Mars.
 

Luciella

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ToastiestZombie said:
Yeah, look at say a lot of men from women's romcoms and chick flicks, and guess what they're all perfect, probably muscular, thin white males with perfect hair. Women are getting a ridiculous image of men from Justin Bieber, One Direction and Twilight yet no one complains because there are bigger problems to do with the same fucking subject. To be honest, I see this whole thing this way:
LOL
What do u mean no one complains??
The internet is all about trashing and whining about Biber and Twilight. There is not a single day where i dont see a meme or a comment made by men saying that its trash, the vampires are -gay, tropes, not real- or everything is a retardness.

Not even that, there is not a single week when i dont hear once or twice a guy face to face trashing it, and a girl face to face feeling all happy about bieber or/and twilight.

Or the scene where all women made an expresion at the abs of Thor in the movie.

Regardless its trash or not, its simply fan service.
If men CANT live with it and whine endlessly about it, regardless how few products like that are around (and that hollywood just found out there is a big market for women and that it gives a lot of money -they seriously just found out?-....¿?)
Why women should not complain about game stereotypes?
 

Machine Man 1992

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itsthesheppy said:
Machine Man 1992 said:
itsthesheppy said:
Machine Man 1992 said:
jmarquiso said:
samus17 said:
Complaining that videogames cater to men is like complaining that the Oxygen channel caters to women; there's going to be pandering and NO ONE SHOULD CARE
Except there are other channels to turn to. Games have less options.

Oxygen came from women demanding it, and viacom realizing it had an untapped audience to sell advertising to. Games could have the larger market, too, if they just listen.
Then make them listen! Tell developers you want more games with strong female protagonists! Tell them you want shirtless hunks to oogle! You have more power than you realize; if publishers realize they have an untapped market, they'll clamber over each other to tap that (see what I did there?).
Video series like the one there is so much resistance to are very much in line with what you are suggesting 'they' do. Raise their voices about the inequality.
Well, if negative reinforcement doesn't work, how about positive reinforcement? Surely there are plenty of female game designers and producers out there, maybe instead of complaining, Anita could say, use the loads of money she has to finance a game? Just a thought.
You, like many others, are falling into the trap of suggesting that you have better ideas for this woman about how she could be spending her time. That perhaps she should be working directly with game developers rather than being all uppity and making noise you would rather not have to hear. You may or may not be aware that you're doing it, but it's known in the feminist parlance as 'mansplaining'.

Mansplaining is when a guy tells a woman (or anyone else, I suppose) that he has a better idea about what she is trying to do, or say. Putting himself in the automatic position of authority and talking down to that individual, educating them about the err of their ways or the superior way of going about something. Even if the intent is altruistic (I have no reason to believe you have anything but the best intentions in mind), it is condescending.

There is a place in the world for commentary, negative and positive. Pointing out the negative aspects of a thing promotes a cultural conversation about it, and this is a conversation that we all should be having. It's a conversation people want to hear. She only asked for $6k to produce the series, and given what little I know about the costs involved in producing videos, it didn't seem entirely unreasonable. That she's had more than $150k donated is indicative of the fact that people want to hear what she has to say and it is not my place, or yours, to tell her what she should and should not do. That's up to her.

If you feel your idea is vastly superior to hers, and if you care enough about it, back up your own rhetoric and start a fund of your own, and then you can do whatever you like with it.
Oh, so just because I have dick that automatically makes my suggestions invalid? The woman makes roughly 400% more money than she needs to make her little video series, I'm offering a means for which the extra 144K can be used to fix the problems she sees. I mean god forbid she displays some agency besides bitching about on the internet and waiting for someone else to fix these problems.

See, what you're doing is exactly what detractors of the feminists use to strawperson the movement: someone who happens to be a man makes a suggestion on how they could accomplish their goal, and people like you jump down their throats for "mansplaining".

Don't post shit on the internet and expect people to refrain from criticizing it.
 

ReiverCorrupter

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Tenmar said:
ReiverCorrupter said:
I'm a bit lost here on your stance cause talking about personal liberty and letting developers create the content they want to create has pretty much been my stance on this whole issue as seen from the news post on this very forum about the whole kickstarter project.

Cause I think you are quoting the wrong person here in terms of getting their attention. If you are trying to get my attention then I don't know exactly where we exactly disagree upon.
Yeah, I was agreeing with and adding to what you said. Sorry for the confusion.
 

SonOfVoorhees

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Forget games, they are not the issue. Aim your guns at magazines and models that are airbrushed to perfection and cause real woman problems with there bodies. Games are unreal and i dont know of any woman that feel insecure due to Lara or beat em up person. Magazines on the other hand cause woman to have eating disorders and problems with there figures and trying to be like that airbrushed unrealistic bimbo. Atleast in games they are obviously unrealistic. Magazine models look like reality to woman.
 

Joseph Alexander

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given her actions of posting and spamming her vids in the-places-that-shall-not-be-named, nitpicking pieces from the completed work, ignoring the context of said works, walling off any form of group review UNTIL NOW, and playing the damsel in distress(irony at its finest) at even the slightest attack.

my general feel of her is that of a troll using white knight complex and women's pride to personal gain, whither that be the erroneously given money or the overvalued E-fame.

TL;DR: this is a shit-storm of her own making, and thats just what she wanted.
 

itsthesheppy

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Machine Man 1992 said:
itsthesheppy said:
Machine Man 1992 said:
itsthesheppy said:
Machine Man 1992 said:
jmarquiso said:
samus17 said:
Complaining that videogames cater to men is like complaining that the Oxygen channel caters to women; there's going to be pandering and NO ONE SHOULD CARE
Except there are other channels to turn to. Games have less options.

Oxygen came from women demanding it, and viacom realizing it had an untapped audience to sell advertising to. Games could have the larger market, too, if they just listen.
Then make them listen! Tell developers you want more games with strong female protagonists! Tell them you want shirtless hunks to oogle! You have more power than you realize; if publishers realize they have an untapped market, they'll clamber over each other to tap that (see what I did there?).
Video series like the one there is so much resistance to are very much in line with what you are suggesting 'they' do. Raise their voices about the inequality.
Well, if negative reinforcement doesn't work, how about positive reinforcement? Surely there are plenty of female game designers and producers out there, maybe instead of complaining, Anita could say, use the loads of money she has to finance a game? Just a thought.
You, like many others, are falling into the trap of suggesting that you have better ideas for this woman about how she could be spending her time. That perhaps she should be working directly with game developers rather than being all uppity and making noise you would rather not have to hear. You may or may not be aware that you're doing it, but it's known in the feminist parlance as 'mansplaining'.

Mansplaining is when a guy tells a woman (or anyone else, I suppose) that he has a better idea about what she is trying to do, or say. Putting himself in the automatic position of authority and talking down to that individual, educating them about the err of their ways or the superior way of going about something. Even if the intent is altruistic (I have no reason to believe you have anything but the best intentions in mind), it is condescending.

There is a place in the world for commentary, negative and positive. Pointing out the negative aspects of a thing promotes a cultural conversation about it, and this is a conversation that we all should be having. It's a conversation people want to hear. She only asked for $6k to produce the series, and given what little I know about the costs involved in producing videos, it didn't seem entirely unreasonable. That she's had more than $150k donated is indicative of the fact that people want to hear what she has to say and it is not my place, or yours, to tell her what she should and should not do. That's up to her.

If you feel your idea is vastly superior to hers, and if you care enough about it, back up your own rhetoric and start a fund of your own, and then you can do whatever you like with it.
Oh, so just because I have dick that automatically makes my suggestions invalid? The woman makes roughly 400% more money than she needs to make her little video series, I'm offering a means for which the extra 144K can be used to fix the problems she sees. I mean god forbid she displays some agency besides bitching about on the internet and waiting for someone else to fix these problems.

See, what you're doing is exactly what detractors of the feminists use to strawperson the movement: someone who happens to be a man makes a suggestion on how they could accomplish their goal, and people like you jump down their throats for "mansplaining".

Don't post shit on the internet and expect people to refrain from criticizing it.
I went ahead and bolded for you the parts where you're doing that thing I said you were doing that you claim you're not doing.

There's a few critical points where you're not really getting it. First of all is the supposition that your suggestions are necessary or even wanted. Why exactly do you think you have a better idea than she does? Not that you respect her at all, of course, or her "little" video series, which you are so far above and wiser than, of course. She has nothing to teach you, no. Nothing she could want to say would be of any interested to you because, haha, silly girl, you get it already. You're thinking two, three steps ahead!

See, you're not a bad guy. You're just helping her. She needs your help; and not just yours, everyone's! $150k+ is a lot of money and we certainly expect that she will know what to do with it! So of course you and so many others jump in with your helpful solutions; utterly unsolicited, completely spontaneous, dripping with condescension.

Nobody said your dick makes you opinions invalid. What I'm saying is that because you are male, society has been telling us, largely through the bullhorn of pop culture but through other sources as well, that we are more capable. We are smarter, bigger, stronger, faster, more capable, more reliable, more emotionally secure. Better leaders, better critical thinkers, more solid decision-makers... than women. This has been hammered home throughout childhood, adolescence, and adulthood, bombarded from every angle. And the end result is, a woman asks for $6k to make a video series about a subject she is passionate for, recieves a lot more than that amount from her supporters and fans, and the legions of men all across the internet, among whom you are a card-carrying member, rise up in resistance because of course she can't be trusted with all that money, she's going to screw it all up and waste everyone's time!

And the best part is you are so fully indoctrinated to the idea of male primacy, as it is the very soup you and I both swim in, that at the very moment you are reading these words, they sound like absolute madness to you. And that's why we need videos like the one she's going to be producing. Lot's more. Because the "men are superior" message is still out there, in force, and it's deafening. Whatever noise can challenge it is sorely needed.
 

ReiverCorrupter

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itsthesheppy said:
Machine Man 1992 said:
itsthesheppy said:
Machine Man 1992 said:
jmarquiso said:
samus17 said:
Complaining that videogames cater to men is like complaining that the Oxygen channel caters to women; there's going to be pandering and NO ONE SHOULD CARE
Except there are other channels to turn to. Games have less options.

Oxygen came from women demanding it, and viacom realizing it had an untapped audience to sell advertising to. Games could have the larger market, too, if they just listen.
Then make them listen! Tell developers you want more games with strong female protagonists! Tell them you want shirtless hunks to oogle! You have more power than you realize; if publishers realize they have an untapped market, they'll clamber over each other to tap that (see what I did there?).
Video series like the one there is so much resistance to are very much in line with what you are suggesting 'they' do. Raise their voices about the inequality.
Well, if negative reinforcement doesn't work, how about positive reinforcement? Surely there are plenty of female game designers and producers out there, maybe instead of complaining, Anita could say, use the loads of money she has to finance a game? Just a thought.
You, like many others, are falling into the trap of suggesting that you have better ideas for this woman about how she could be spending her time. That perhaps she should be working directly with game developers rather than being all uppity and making noise you would rather not have to hear. You may or may not be aware that you're doing it, but it's known in the feminist parlance as 'mansplaining'.

Mansplaining is when a guy tells a woman (or anyone else, I suppose) that he has a better idea about what she is trying to do, or say. Putting himself in the automatic position of authority and talking down to that individual, educating them about the err of their ways or the superior way of going about something. Even if the intent is altruistic (I have no reason to believe you have anything but the best intentions in mind), it is condescending.

There is a place in the world for commentary, negative and positive. Pointing out the negative aspects of a thing promotes a cultural conversation about it, and this is a conversation that we all should be having. It's a conversation people want to hear. She only asked for $6k to produce the series, and given what little I know about the costs involved in producing videos, it didn't seem entirely unreasonable. That she's had more than $150k donated is indicative of the fact that people want to hear what she has to say and it is not my place, or yours, to tell her what she should and should not do. That's up to her.

If you feel your idea is vastly superior to hers, and if you care enough about it, back up your own rhetoric and start a fund of your own, and then you can do whatever you like with it.
Machine Man 1992 said:
Oh, so just because I have dick that automatically makes my suggestions invalid? The woman makes roughly 400% more money than she needs to make her little video series, I'm offering a means for which the extra 144K can be used to fix the problems she sees. I mean god forbid she displays some agency besides bitching about on the internet and waiting for someone else to fix these problems.

See, what you're doing is exactly what detractors of the feminists use to strawperson the movement: someone who happens to be a man makes a suggestion on how they could accomplish their goal, and people like you jump down their throats for "mansplaining".

Don't post shit on the internet and expect people to refrain from criticizing it.
DOWN WITH THE MANOCENTRIC MALEOCRACY!


"Mansplaining" LMFAO. That has to be one of the dumbest things I've heard in quite some time.

Apparently these neofeminists have never heard of an ad hominem fallacy. Then again maybe logic is just another tool of the oppressive patriarchy. LOL. OH GOD, MY SIDES HURT FROM THE LAUGHTER.

I think Nietzsche explained my sentiment best when he said that "at times one remains faithful to a cause only because its opponents do not cease to be insipid."