The Big Picture: Tropes vs. MovieBob

[jmarquiso]

I'll also note that she has apparantly tried to review the amount of sexist in a game she didn't bother playing. That alone screams 'not taking this seriously' or at least trying to make a strawman arguement. If that is anything to go by, I doubt she'll put the research or effort into her series and it will be shallow and pointless. But I hope that I am wrong.

Technically she was criticizing the ad campaign, not the game, and I do agree she's too dismissive of the game itself.

That being said, the ad campaign for this game had the same effect on me - I found it distasteful and didn't want the game. Multiple reviews afterward said it was more than it was selling, and so that sparked my interest.

 

[o137725]

Bob,
Being page 26-ish of the comments means the chance of you personally reading this may be low, but I'd like to take a moment to write this as if it was to you personally, and not the general forum audience.

Firstly, I am one of those people who is anti-feminist, and unfortunately, my reasons for being such would turn this into a silly argument, so take it on faith that though I am anti-feminist, there is a good reason for it, and I cannot be dissuaded by *ahem* rational argument... yeah, not going to go there.

Anyway, the point is, your last point in the video is dangerously wrong, and falls on assumptions of fair play and generosity that just do not exist in the present modern day. Unfortunately, video games with a disproportionate view on women are going out of style, mostly due to actions like this one. 'Mature' publishers will not use sexualized female characters for any reason, reducing them to bland characters with no character flaws. This last point is important, in that they will also not show women who are fat, lazy, or stupid, as female gamers are just as offended by a lack of competence in their female 'role-models'. This overwhelmingly approved-of opinion is reducing the variety of female roles, not enhancing it.

Meanwhile, as you may have guessed by my dislike of the feminist agenda, I like panty raider 12, and I would like to see it come out. But this is in jeopardy! The above point, that female characters cannot be sexualized without a lasting negative impact in a large market segment(and yes, females are a large market segment, this is something we all have to acknowledge. Even if they are about 10% or so, and I am pulling that number out of thin air, and low-balling it massively, that demographic still has a large buying power, more than that of the 30-something white males who grew up playing mario, ). Back on point, this action can cause studios to change games, and even close shops.


Warning, this next paragraph is decidedly R rated, foul language, and reference to wikipedia pages.
I have always been a fan of Illusion. From the name, most feminists would object to Battle Raper 2, which I know 90% of the audience will never try from the name, was actually a surprisingly competent fighting game, which, though the AI was braindead, required a surprising amount of skill to master. During the Rapelay controversy, I was aghast(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RapeLay#Controversy). How could feminists pull a game from the shelves, especially one by a company I enjoyed. Not only that, this was the work of the American feminists, attacking the game industry of a foreign country, and removing not only a game, but in the end, the whole genre. Again, to repeat this, the genre around this game basically unraveled over night, including legislation against it. The feminists can, and have, passed legislation moderating the content of games, and will do so in our country if a sufficiently polarizing issue presents itself. And unfortunately, I'm unable to believe that a group of angry feminists will truly consider the qualities of a game like AG2*(lookit up if you want to know) before trying to get it removed, not from their own game libraries, but from our homes.

The important point to this, Bob, is that feminists can in fact destroy panty raider 12, and they already have; just not here. Our feminists, not theirs, have already removed a genre, and the effects they've had on female video game characters in the US is both massive and disruptive. Free market forces may balance the sexism war, but only once people stop rocking the boat, forcing the market to do perverse things to its characters to satisfy what is basically a standing order to boycott. All I would like is that *some* games be allowed to sexualize women, but in this political climate, and especially with voices like yours, this will not happen, and can not happen. Until we, as a culture, male and female, stop putting restrictions on the freedoms of developers, this wacky system will continue, and I will never be able to see the day DoA:X3 is released, as the female portion of the market says this game should not exist.

-Anon
----------------------------------------

I'm always a lurker, as I usually agree with the majority opinion, and I take a long time to write one of these, usually several hours looking over the various spelling and grammar issues, and making sure my tone is correct. But I had to make this point very clear, as I apparently hate people being wrong on the internet so much I wasted two hours of my time writing a reply to a video.
-I registered to make this point


*AG2 was one of my favorite games of all time. AG3, not so much.
Feel free to beat me up in the comments below, I don't plan on ever checking this forum again.
and if at this point, you still don't know why I take personal offence at the National Organization of Women, as well as Women's Forum Australia, and wish I could destroy everything they stand for, you haven't been reading.

 

[Ramzal]

"LadyRhian"
We (and Anita Sarkeesian) aren't saying there aren't any. We're saying there aren't enough of them.

Really? I will give a few more examples. *Clears throat... inhales.*

1)Titania: Fire Emblem Path of Radiance.
2)Mia: Fire Emblem Path of Radiance
3)Nephenee: Fire Emblem Path of Radiance
4)Lethe: Fire Emblem Path of Radiance
5)Lucia: Fire Emblem Path of Radiance
6)Jill: Fire emblem Path of Radiance
7)Princess/Queen Elincia: Fire Emblem Path of Radiance
8)Lyn: Fire Emblem Blazing sword
9)April Ryan: Longest Journey
10)Alyx Vance: Half Life 2
11)Ashe: Final Fantasy XII
12)Tifa: Final Fantasy VII
13)Quistis: Final Fantasy VIII
14)Edea Kramer: Final Fantasy VIII
15)Lightning: Final Fantasy XIII
16)Agrais: Final Fantasy Tactics
17)Beatrix: FInal fantasy IX
18)Lara Croft: Tomb Raider Anniversary (If you cannot see how humanized she is in this game, I can't help you.)
19)Claire: Resident evil
20)Jill: Resident evil
21)Sheva: Resident evil (Honestly, she's saved Chris's backside so many times. And is more capable than he is and can keep her head on straight easier)
22)Lucia: Chrono Trigger
23)Kidd: Chrono Cross
24)Sarah Lyons: Fallout 3
25)Hope's Mother: Final Fantasy XIII
26)Ruby: Wet
27)Amaterasu: Okami
28)Celes Cher: Final Fantasy VI
29)Samus: From every Metroid game OUTSIDE of other M. (She isn't portrayed very much in most games, however Metroid Fusion and the comics do a great job of doing so.)
30)Nel: Star Ocean Til The end of Time
31)Mirage Kaos: Star Ocean Til The end of Time
32)Maria Trador: Star Ocean Til The end of Time
33)Myuria Tionysus: Star Ocean The Last Hope

And honestly, if you judge any of them just for their clothing (And by you, I mean anyone) you are as judgmental and objectifying as anyone else is. I mean really, the pre-bias that someone is either lacking in intelligence or in self respect due to the clothes they are wearing is one that has got to go. I've seen it too many times when a woman is simply dressed a certain way and immediately put in "Skank" or "Whore" bin of humanity. One of the most intelligent women I know and has a 3.9 GPA wears short shorts that come to the edge of her butt because she feels comfortable in them. It's a bit of a side issue that I am stating here, however I have a really big problem when people outcry because of a lack of clothing.

I'm even confused by it. A larger majority of women at one point began to wear less clothing to oppose men who at the time demanded that women cover up more to decrease the chances of anyone looking at their wives. But now that men find it sexy or someone if comfortable expressing themselves in a fashion sense, it's degrading?

Honestly, that's 33 women I can think of in games off the top of my mind who are strong, capable, do NOT need a man around to save them and influential. Going so far as saying that there should be no shame in looking up to them.

 

[LadyRhian]

Like it or not games can be sexist and history can prove that much. From the amount of cheesecake on show to the stereotypes used, there is defiantly a case for this. Lara Croft, Princess Peach, Other M Samus and many female characters created by Team Ninja do play into this. And it makes videogames and the people that play them look childish, which isn't always true. Point blank maybe 'gamers' need to adimt there's a case of this and not get so defensive about it, the average feminist is NOT trying to 'ruin games'.

Lara Croft and Princess Peach didn't get the cheesecake treatment until much later in their gaming careers.

As for Other M Samus, Extra Credit did a good video as to what most likely went wrong there; in a nutshell it was Too Many Cooks meets Bad Writing 101 topped off with Samus' lines being delivered by what Yahtzee described as "a voice actress who has undergone several amateur lobotomies." I think only Link got worst treatment and that was in an animated show. (Excuse me, Princess. Ugh.)

I just gotta say here, I remember an advertisement for one of the Lara Croft games (2, I think) in which it was heavily advertised "Lara gets more outfits this time!" I really don't recall that being a selling point for male characters in any game I can remember. It was like "Lara Croft Barbie"! Look, her clothes change!

Sounds like _Lara Croft: Tomb Raider - The Angel of Darkness_ a point Yahtzee said the series "died". The second game was likely the sequel _Tomb Raider: Legend_ which was made by a different team.

It must be remembered that the original team had tried the end the series ala Conan Doyle by killing off their creation but they quickly came under pressure to bring her back. We got the prequel "Hound of the Baskervilles" treatment in _Tomb Raider Chronicles_ followed by the above Angel of Darkness and we can see where that went.

So was this the fault of the developers who knew if they continued Lara would degenerate into cheesecake or the fans for demanding the character be effectively driven into the ground?

No, it actually *was* Tomb Raider II, and the commercials even had a runway-style part where Lara shows off her new costumes. So... ever seen a game with a male character that does that?

 

[Ramzal]

Like it or not games can be sexist and history can prove that much. From the amount of cheesecake on show to the stereotypes used, there is defiantly a case for this. Lara Croft, Princess Peach, Other M Samus and many female characters created by Team Ninja do play into this. And it makes videogames and the people that play them look childish, which isn't always true. Point blank maybe 'gamers' need to adimt there's a case of this and not get so defensive about it, the average feminist is NOT trying to 'ruin games'.

Lara Croft and Princess Peach didn't get the cheesecake treatment until much later in their gaming careers.

As for Other M Samus, Extra Credit did a good video as to what most likely went wrong there; in a nutshell it was Too Many Cooks meets Bad Writing 101 topped off with Samus' lines being delivered by what Yahtzee described as "a voice actress who has undergone several amateur lobotomies." I think only Link got worst treatment and that was in an animated show. (Excuse me, Princess. Ugh.)

I just gotta say here, I remember an advertisement for one of the Lara Croft games (2, I think) in which it was heavily advertised "Lara gets more outfits this time!" I really don't recall that being a selling point for male characters in any game I can remember. It was like "Lara Croft Barbie"! Look, her clothes change!

Sounds like _Lara Croft: Tomb Raider - The Angel of Darkness_ a point Yahtzee said the series "died". The second game was likely the sequel _Tomb Raider: Legend_ which was made by a different team.

It must be remembered that the original team had tried the end the series ala Conan Doyle by killing off their creation but they quickly came under pressure to bring her back. We got the prequel "Hound of the Baskervilles" treatment in _Tomb Raider Chronicles_ followed by the above Angel of Darkness and we can see where that went.

So was this the fault of the developers who knew if they continued Lara would degenerate into cheesecake or the fans for demanding the character be effectively driven into the ground?

No, it actually *was* Tomb Raider II, and the commercials even had a runway-style part where Lara shows off her new costumes. So... ever seen a game with a male character that does that?

Prince of Persia. The constantly showed him with less and less clothes as the commercial progressed. Devil May Cry 3 with Dante's lack of shirt AND underwear. And trust me. A lack of underwear is not for the sake of male power fantasy. Dante is fangirl bait and everyone knows it.

 

[LadyRhian]

"LadyRhian"
We (and Anita Sarkeesian) aren't saying there aren't any. We're saying there aren't enough of them.

Really? I will give a few more examples. *Clears throat... inhales.*

1)Titania: Fire Emblem Path of Radiance.
2)Mia: Fire Emblem Path of Radiance
3)Nephenee: Fire Emblem Path of Radiance
4)Lethe: Fire Emblem Path of Radiance
5)Lucia: Fire Emblem Path of Radiance
6)Jill: Fire emblem Path of Radiance
7)Princess/Queen Elincia: Fire Emblem Path of Radiance
8)Lyn: Fire Emblem Blazing sword
9)April Ryan: Longest Journey
10)Alyx Vance: Half Life 2
11)Ashe: Final Fantasy XII
12)Tifa: Final Fantasy VII
13)Quistis: Final Fantasy VIII
14)Edea Kramer: Final Fantasy VIII
15)Lightning: Final Fantasy XIII
16)Agrais: Final Fantasy Tactics
17)Beatrix: FInal fantasy IX
18)Lara Croft: Tomb Raider Anniversary (If you cannot see how humanized she is in this game, I can't help you.)
19)Claire: Resident evil
20)Jill: Resident evil
21)Sheva: Resident evil (Honestly, she's saved Chris's backside so many times. And is more capable than he is and can keep her head on straight easier)
22)Lucia: Chrono Trigger
23)Kidd: Chrono Cross
24)Sarah Lyons: Fallout 3
25)Hope's Mother: Final Fantasy XIII
26)Ruby: Wet
27)Amaterasu: Okami
28)Celes Cher: Final Fantasy VI
29)Samus: From every Metroid game OUTSIDE of other M. (She isn't portrayed very much in most games, however Metroid Fusion and the comics do a great job of doing so.)
30)Nel: Star Ocean Til The end of Time
31)Mirage Kaos: Star Ocean Til The end of Time
32)Maria Trador: Star Ocean Til The end of Time
33)Myuria Tionysus: Star Ocean The Last Hope

And honestly, if you judge any of them just for their clothing (And by you, I mean anyone) you are as judgmental and objectifying as anyone else is. I mean really, the pre-bias that someone is either lacking in intelligence or in self respect due to the clothes they are wearing is one that has got to go. I've seen it too many times when a woman is simply dressed a certain way and immediately put in "Skank" or "Whore" bin of humanity. One of the most intelligent women I know and has a 3.9 GPA wears short shorts that come to the edge of her butt because she feels comfortable in them. It's a bit of a side issue that I am stating here, however I have a really big problem when people outcry because of a lack of clothing.

I'm even confused by it. A larger majority of women at one point began to wear less clothing to oppose men who at the time demanded that women cover up more to decrease the chances of anyone looking at their wives. But now that men find it sexy or someone if comfortable expressing themselves in a fashion sense, it's degrading?

Honestly, that's 33 women I can think of in games off the top of my mind who are strong, capable, do NOT need a man around to save them and influential. Going so far as saying that there should be no shame in looking up to them.

I'll give you that I have heard of a few games on this list, and a few characters in some of those games. But, basically, what you seem to be saying is, "Japanese Games do fully realized female characters better than Western Games do." And that you had to list one Lara Croft game out of the - how many games starring her are there out there?- just makes it even better. And how many fully realized and believable male characters could you list off the top of your head?

For Western games, we have: Resident Evil, Half Life 2, One Tomb Raider Game, Fallout 3- and to be honest, I never heard of Longest Journey or Wet (I looked them up, and apparently, it's Rubi, not Ruby). So, from Western games (and I am counting the Norwegian-made "Longest Journey" as "Western") that's a grand total of six characters. Six. Versus how many male characters? And Lara Croft from one game out of Nine. That's pitiful.

 

[LadyRhian]

Like it or not games can be sexist and history can prove that much. From the amount of cheesecake on show to the stereotypes used, there is defiantly a case for this. Lara Croft, Princess Peach, Other M Samus and many female characters created by Team Ninja do play into this. And it makes videogames and the people that play them look childish, which isn't always true. Point blank maybe 'gamers' need to adimt there's a case of this and not get so defensive about it, the average feminist is NOT trying to 'ruin games'.

Lara Croft and Princess Peach didn't get the cheesecake treatment until much later in their gaming careers.

As for Other M Samus, Extra Credit did a good video as to what most likely went wrong there; in a nutshell it was Too Many Cooks meets Bad Writing 101 topped off with Samus' lines being delivered by what Yahtzee described as "a voice actress who has undergone several amateur lobotomies." I think only Link got worst treatment and that was in an animated show. (Excuse me, Princess. Ugh.)

I just gotta say here, I remember an advertisement for one of the Lara Croft games (2, I think) in which it was heavily advertised "Lara gets more outfits this time!" I really don't recall that being a selling point for male characters in any game I can remember. It was like "Lara Croft Barbie"! Look, her clothes change!

Sounds like _Lara Croft: Tomb Raider - The Angel of Darkness_ a point Yahtzee said the series "died". The second game was likely the sequel _Tomb Raider: Legend_ which was made by a different team.

It must be remembered that the original team had tried the end the series ala Conan Doyle by killing off their creation but they quickly came under pressure to bring her back. We got the prequel "Hound of the Baskervilles" treatment in _Tomb Raider Chronicles_ followed by the above Angel of Darkness and we can see where that went.

So was this the fault of the developers who knew if they continued Lara would degenerate into cheesecake or the fans for demanding the character be effectively driven into the ground?

No, it actually *was* Tomb Raider II, and the commercials even had a runway-style part where Lara shows off her new costumes. So... ever seen a game with a male character that does that?

Prince of Persia. The constantly showed him with less and less clothes as the commercial progressed. Devil May Cry 3 with Dante's lack of shirt AND underwear. And trust me. A lack of underwear is not for the sake of male power fantasy. Dante is fangirl bait and everyone knows it.

Were they saying, "And look, ladies! He loses his clothing!"? And which Prince of Persia was this for? And which Devil May Cry? All the ads I have seen him in have him pretty fully clothed.

Edited to add: like this one:

 

[LadyRhian]

I'm going out to pick up my Dad's medications from the grocery store now... try not to overwhelm the thread with replies to me before I get back.

 

[Ramzal]

"LadyRhian"
We (and Anita Sarkeesian) aren't saying there aren't any. We're saying there aren't enough of them.

Really? I will give a few more examples. *Clears throat... inhales.*

1)Titania: Fire Emblem Path of Radiance.
2)Mia: Fire Emblem Path of Radiance
3)Nephenee: Fire Emblem Path of Radiance
4)Lethe: Fire Emblem Path of Radiance
5)Lucia: Fire Emblem Path of Radiance
6)Jill: Fire emblem Path of Radiance
7)Princess/Queen Elincia: Fire Emblem Path of Radiance
8)Lyn: Fire Emblem Blazing sword
9)April Ryan: Longest Journey
10)Alyx Vance: Half Life 2
11)Ashe: Final Fantasy XII
12)Tifa: Final Fantasy VII
13)Quistis: Final Fantasy VIII
14)Edea Kramer: Final Fantasy VIII
15)Lightning: Final Fantasy XIII
16)Agrais: Final Fantasy Tactics
17)Beatrix: FInal fantasy IX
18)Lara Croft: Tomb Raider Anniversary (If you cannot see how humanized she is in this game, I can't help you.)
19)Claire: Resident evil
20)Jill: Resident evil
21)Sheva: Resident evil (Honestly, she's saved Chris's backside so many times. And is more capable than he is and can keep her head on straight easier)
22)Lucia: Chrono Trigger
23)Kidd: Chrono Cross
24)Sarah Lyons: Fallout 3
25)Hope's Mother: Final Fantasy XIII
26)Ruby: Wet
27)Amaterasu: Okami
28)Celes Cher: Final Fantasy VI
29)Samus: From every Metroid game OUTSIDE of other M. (She isn't portrayed very much in most games, however Metroid Fusion and the comics do a great job of doing so.)
30)Nel: Star Ocean Til The end of Time
31)Mirage Kaos: Star Ocean Til The end of Time
32)Maria Trador: Star Ocean Til The end of Time
33)Myuria Tionysus: Star Ocean The Last Hope

And honestly, if you judge any of them just for their clothing (And by you, I mean anyone) you are as judgmental and objectifying as anyone else is. I mean really, the pre-bias that someone is either lacking in intelligence or in self respect due to the clothes they are wearing is one that has got to go. I've seen it too many times when a woman is simply dressed a certain way and immediately put in "Skank" or "Whore" bin of humanity. One of the most intelligent women I know and has a 3.9 GPA wears short shorts that come to the edge of her butt because she feels comfortable in them. It's a bit of a side issue that I am stating here, however I have a really big problem when people outcry because of a lack of clothing.

I'm even confused by it. A larger majority of women at one point began to wear less clothing to oppose men who at the time demanded that women cover up more to decrease the chances of anyone looking at their wives. But now that men find it sexy or someone if comfortable expressing themselves in a fashion sense, it's degrading?

Honestly, that's 33 women I can think of in games off the top of my mind who are strong, capable, do NOT need a man around to save them and influential. Going so far as saying that there should be no shame in looking up to them.

I'll give you that I have heard of a few games on this list, and a few characters in some of those games. But, basically, what you seem to be saying is, "Japanese Games do fully realized female characters better than Western Games do." And that you had to list one Lara Croft game out of the - how many games starring her are there out there?- just makes it even better. And how many fully realized and believable male characters could you list off the top of your head?

Okay. Let me stop you right there. I never said "Japanese games do fully realized female characters better than Western games do." My game library has an 8:2 ration of Japanese games to Western games. I have not played every game in existence and frankly, I buy games off of what I think may interest me for one reason or another. I didn't put words in your mouth, please do me the favor and do not do it to me.

As far as Lara goes. Yes I do realize that, however I haven't played many of them past 1, 2, 3 and Anniversary. My wife has played them all, and said that while yes, she does have a body that shows--she informs me that she does in fact have a solid personality. Lara is highly intelligent, cunning, capable, brave, and a scholar. (Albeit a scholar with guns, but a scholar none the less.) I cannot comprehend why women hate a character who is as intelligent as Lara Croft. The woman knows over 13 languages. You can't be lacking and do that.

As far as males go? You want my honest answer? like... 7 of them.

1) Cloud: FInal fantasy 7.

Yes, he is emotional. However considering he lost his memory, lost his mother and his own hero that motivated his goals in life killed his mother---that gives him reason to be.

2) Dominic Santiago: Gears of war.

As someone who's been to war and I have a wife, I can understand Dominic fully. He is deep.

3) Squall: Final Fantasy 8

4) Ramza: Final Fantasy Tactics

5) Edge Maverick: Star Ocean the last hope.

He blew up an alternate Earth by trying to help prevent the world to falling due to nuclear warfare and his actions caused the explosion of that earth. And while everyone tried to state "It's okay, it's not your fault." He responded that his actions caused the deaths of every animal and human on a -planet- despite how well meaning it was and that he is responsible. This hung on him for a long time and he still never forgave himself, but he accepted it.

6) Ike: Fire Emblem Path of Radiance/ Radiant Dawn.

7) Solid Snake: Metal Gear/Metal gear Solid.

Truth be told, the majority of men in games tend to be idiotic. Doing the same actions at times without ever stopping and questioning why they are doing it in the first place, or considering what their actions are causing. Mainly just there to hit things half the time.

For Western games, we have: Resident Evil, Half Life 2, One Tomb Raider Game, Fallout 3- and to be honest, I never heard of Longest Journey or Wet (I looked them up, and apparently, it's Rubi, not Ruby. So, from Western games (and I am counting the Norwegian-made "Longest Journey" as "Western") that's a grand total of six characters. Six. Versus how many male characters? And Lara Croft from one game out of Nine. That's pitiful.

However, you are thinning the heard by separating western and eastern games. It's--and sorry to say this---a tad bit nit picky. I see a game as a game. My selection of games stem from what I am interested in rather than who developed it and where it came from.

 

[Ramzal]

Like it or not games can be sexist and history can prove that much. From the amount of cheesecake on show to the stereotypes used, there is defiantly a case for this. Lara Croft, Princess Peach, Other M Samus and many female characters created by Team Ninja do play into this. And it makes videogames and the people that play them look childish, which isn't always true. Point blank maybe 'gamers' need to adimt there's a case of this and not get so defensive about it, the average feminist is NOT trying to 'ruin games'.

Lara Croft and Princess Peach didn't get the cheesecake treatment until much later in their gaming careers.

As for Other M Samus, Extra Credit did a good video as to what most likely went wrong there; in a nutshell it was Too Many Cooks meets Bad Writing 101 topped off with Samus' lines being delivered by what Yahtzee described as "a voice actress who has undergone several amateur lobotomies." I think only Link got worst treatment and that was in an animated show. (Excuse me, Princess. Ugh.)

I just gotta say here, I remember an advertisement for one of the Lara Croft games (2, I think) in which it was heavily advertised "Lara gets more outfits this time!" I really don't recall that being a selling point for male characters in any game I can remember. It was like "Lara Croft Barbie"! Look, her clothes change!

Sounds like _Lara Croft: Tomb Raider - The Angel of Darkness_ a point Yahtzee said the series "died". The second game was likely the sequel _Tomb Raider: Legend_ which was made by a different team.

It must be remembered that the original team had tried the end the series ala Conan Doyle by killing off their creation but they quickly came under pressure to bring her back. We got the prequel "Hound of the Baskervilles" treatment in _Tomb Raider Chronicles_ followed by the above Angel of Darkness and we can see where that went.

So was this the fault of the developers who knew if they continued Lara would degenerate into cheesecake or the fans for demanding the character be effectively driven into the ground?

No, it actually *was* Tomb Raider II, and the commercials even had a runway-style part where Lara shows off her new costumes. So... ever seen a game with a male character that does that?

Prince of Persia. The constantly showed him with less and less clothes as the commercial progressed. Devil May Cry 3 with Dante's lack of shirt AND underwear. And trust me. A lack of underwear is not for the sake of male power fantasy. Dante is fangirl bait and everyone knows it.

Were they saying, "And look, ladies! He loses his clothing!"? And which Prince of Persia was this for? And which Devil May Cry? All the ads I have seen him in have him pretty fully clothed.

Edited to add: like this one:

I said devil may cry 3. 3. Not 1.

Note the lack of shirt and underwear.

without jacket:

And I am referring to Sands of Time prince of Persia. Throughout the commercial it switches to the prince with a shirt or the prince without a shirt. Even past that, this is a subject of subtlety and obvious. But let me throw a wrench in here. What if---some women liked seeing sexy revealing clothing as much as men did. And it is not impossible, my wife enjoys a lack of clothing on women more often than I do. And she can't be the only one out there.

Unless there is something wrong with bisexual women liking the sights on another woman now.

 

[Ramzal]

To those here that think Sarkeesian and Bob are raising a fuss over nothing, I urge you to use your imagination for just a second and imagine the following situation. I know this is challenging since the straight white man never has to step into the shoes of "the other", because society has unjustly pandered only to his whims, but please, for the sake of argument:

What if, hypothetically, every single mainstream video-game and facet of gamer culture was from the cultural perspective of gay males? Say, for example, the gay male version of Bayonetta would be a game with a dashing straight guy constantly forced into awkward homoerotic situations, that can only gain superpowers by kissing other men, and that needs to rip his shirt off, wear assless leather pants, and put on a ball gag just to use his special attacks. Imagine that there is no opposite to that - if you want a game from a straight male perspective, you're better of with neutered stylized casual games. This approach would not only be oppressive to straight males, by assuming that they exist only for the pleasure of gay men, but also to gay males, by assuming every single one in the audience is an exploitative, sex-crazed fetishist.

That is how females feel when playing 90% of modern mainstream games. They have every right to demand to be included and equally represented.

I have to be honest with you,that game sounds awesome and I would buy it in a heartbeat. Also I'm a white heterosexual male.

As a dark brown heterosexual male, I would buy that game. If it has the same gameplay mechanics as Bayonetta, I would buy it as I enjoyed Sarah-Palin-Gone-Wild. And would take those actions has hilariously blown out of proportion but in stride due to it's wackiness. Like I do with Sarah Palin's Awesome Adventure.

 

[Calibanbutcher]

"LadyRhian"
Snip

Snip

Snip

Snip

I wanted to update the list a bit as well:


I do believe you mentioned most female characters, but have some more:

1. The Boss - MGS3
2. Yuna FFX
3. Terra FF6
4. Aerith FF7 + Crisis Core

Now, fully realized AND believable male characters:

1. MGS Snake / Big Boss.

2. Zack Fair - Crisis Core FFVII

3. Cloud Strife - FFVII

4. Squall - FFVIII

5. Ramza Beoulf - FFTWoTL

6. The guy from Silent Hill 2

7. that guy from Shenmue

huh, that's about it, for believable male characters that aren't just slabs of meat with guns or weapons.

 

[Calibanbutcher]

Giant Snip

Just one thing, concerning 4chan:

A stranger comes to your favourite website and starts spamming it with a video begging for money.
You try to engage said stranger in a discussion, upon which the stranger starts calling you trolls, which is quite insulting, really.

The stranger still continues to spam.

What kind of reaction would one expect under such circumstances?

I do believe, that, since the stranger came to your site and started spamming and insulting you, hostility is not only to be expected but also justified.

If I was to log into a feminist forum and start spamming about men's rights and how I need money to make a documentary about men's rights and then proceeded to insult everyone seeking discussion with me, would still accuse the members of said forum of being misandrious if they finally gave in and started insulting me?

 

[cobra_ky]

And honestly, if you judge any of them just for their clothing (And by you, I mean anyone) you are as judgmental and objectifying as anyone else is. I mean really, the pre-bias that someone is either lacking in intelligence or in self respect due to the clothes they are wearing is one that has got to go. I've seen it too many times when a woman is simply dressed a certain way and immediately put in "Skank" or "Whore" bin of humanity. One of the most intelligent women I know and has a 3.9 GPA wears short shorts that come to the edge of her butt because she feels comfortable in them. It's a bit of a side issue that I am stating here, however I have a really big problem when people outcry because of a lack of clothing.

I'm even confused by it. A larger majority of women at one point began to wear less clothing to oppose men who at the time demanded that women cover up more to decrease the chances of anyone looking at their wives. But now that men find it sexy or someone if comfortable expressing themselves in a fashion sense, it's degrading?

You're confusing video game characters with actual people. Women who make conscientious decisions about their bodies and what to put on them are empowered. But video game characters don't make decisions about what they wear; the people designing them do, and those people are typically men. Too much emphasis on the sexuality of female characters is degrading to women.

Like it or not games can be sexist and history can prove that much. From the amount of cheesecake on show to the stereotypes used, there is defiantly a case for this. Lara Croft, Princess Peach, Other M Samus and many female characters created by Team Ninja do play into this. And it makes videogames and the people that play them look childish, which isn't always true. Point blank maybe 'gamers' need to adimt there's a case of this and not get so defensive about it, the average feminist is NOT trying to 'ruin games'.

E:

Lara Croft and Princess Peach didn't get the cheesecake treatment until much later in their gaming careers.

yeah about that: