The Big Picture: With Great Power

[EstrogenicMuscle]

In connection to the Tropes vs Women reference, I don't take Alisia Sarkeesian seriously.

Watch her episode, then Facts vs Women and you'll see why.

Facts vs. Women was stupid as heck.

She also destroyed a lot of the horrible points that thunderf00t made in her second video.
What is most pathetic in this world, is that what Anita Sarkeesian should mostly be seen as doing, is stating the obvious.

Just the reaction to Anita Sarkeesian proves how necessary feminism is. Even if she were are horrible as many people LIE Anita Sarkeesian out to be. The reaction to her and her videos would still be unwarranted. It is absolutely sad that this planet is so sad, that people reaction so viciously to someone stating such obvious truths.

Oh, and every time anything like this is brought up people are like "oh, stop talking about sexism. Oh, stop talking about sexism. I'm tired of hearing about it."
People will stop talking about it when, every time it is brought up, people prove how good of an idea talking about sexism is.

If people want people talking about sexism less, maybe they should stop be a part of the problem.

 

[Dangit2019]

Geek 3.0 = bronies.

Oh God, and then we're back at square one.

Come to the dark side. We have cupcakes.

I'm already a brony, I'm just saying that with the level of the stigma towards them, geek culture goes back to where it began.

 

[JimB]

What's this "we" stuff, ke-mo sah-bee?

I think that is the biggest problem with the entire video and the majority of the responses in agreement with it.

I don't understand what point you're trying to make here (I don't know what "that" is referring to), so what follows is my best guess as to an appropriate response. If I've misunderstood you, please let me know how, and I'll try again.

"We" is a collective, first person pronoun. It refers to any group to which the speaker belongs. I did not attach any limiters or qualifiers indicating which group I'm claiming membership in because I am speaking of humanity in general: I believe that every human being can be better than ignoring the issues at hand for favor of swearing at someone, because it is, frankly, childish behavior.

I am not claiming or even advocating for uniformity or cohesion among the various subsets of geek. I am not saying that anyone's appreciation of comic books or sci-fi or video games of whatever instills with it a membership whose dues must be paid in the form of social service, or that your goals are or should be the same as mine. I am only saying that most of what I have read in this thread is the worst of what humanity has to offer, not because its evil is enormous and profound but because it's banal and reflexive; and that I think we can all aspire to be better than that.

 

[deathjavu]

Sorry Bob, as with shortsighted uninformed political choices, religion, racism, sexism, and other dogmatic forms of indoctrinated beliefs, the only cure is self-doubting critical thought. The real version, where even the things you think you know for sure are reexamined and called into question because that's where our most horrible aspects and biggest lies will hide.

And almost no one wants to do that. Because it's painful, but mostly because it takes too much effort.

 

[JimB]

Bob can do better than this. [various complaints about a lack of specificity]

If I understand you, then you are saying you won't follow his advice and attempt to advocate for a better, more inclusive environment because he did not hand you a checklist of evils to fight and morals to instill. Is that about right? If it is, then I think you're missing the point, because creating such a totalitarian morality instead of urging you to follow your own conscience as regards right and wrong would be even more exclusive than the culture already is, since any who disagree with the party line must be badgered into conforming to our opinions.

 

[Aardvaarkman]

As soon as a sub-culture has reached a certain point of popularity it's normally subject to massive attempted cash-ins.

That's why "culture" sucks, and should be avoided as much as possible, whether it's a sub-culture, or a mainstream culture.

Of course, it's impossible for anybody to be free of all culture, but it should be resisted strongly. Culture tends to lead to war and other bad things.

 

[Lilani]

Subconsciously, I at least think if a person looks like they have the choice to have lots of sex, they probably aren't a nerd. Is that fair? No. But neither is being born attractive. At least let the nerds have something.

Um, no. I've lost 10 pounds in the last month and a half, and I plan to keep running 2-3 miles four times a week and doing crunches, pushups, and chair-dips on the days I don't run until I hit my desired weight (and pant size). I wasn't "born attractive," I've been overweight since I was seven. Watching the fat slowly drain away from my front is a little more than satisfying, I will admit.

In the meantime, I love video games, fantasy films and books, animation, and I plan on joining the friends I made while playing FF11 in FF14 when it relaunches in August. I check my email nearly hourly to see if I've been accepted into the beta yet, so I can join just a bit earlier. I'm chomping at the bit to see the new Doctor Who special in November, and have been satisfying myself with the Classic Who while I wait. Just earlier today I was practicing animation and drawing the human figure by rotoscoping a slow-motion video I downloaded from YouTube of Shaolin monks doing flips and kicks, while on my other monitor streaming Fullmetal Alchemist on Netflix. I've seen Brotherhood through to the end, so I was just wanting to watch the original series to see the differences between the two. I was wanting to get through D-Gray man, but for some reason in the second season Netflix only has the subbed version, and I can't exactly listen to subtitles while animating. And last week I was marathoning the Phantom of the Opera and Into the Woods because I rediscovered how much I love musicals.

Those are my interests, that's what makes me a "nerd." If I do continue to lose weight, what does that have to do with anything? Robin Williams named his daughter Zelda, because he loved the idea of naming his daughter after a beautiful and admirable princess. While he may not be the sexiest man in the world (though not totally repulsive, either) he is extremely charismatic, and looking at him the first thing you wouldn't think is "Oh, he's a nerd." And then look at Vin Diesel, probably the only video game nerd who's actually managed to pull off the self-insertion dream in both the forms of blockbuster movies and AAA video games.

Nerds are not defined by any physical characteristics. Just because you're physically attractive doesn't affect your ability to love games or fiction, and nor does being physically unattractive necessarily mean you are more likely to enjoy those things. We are bound together by our compulsive and sometimes indescribable love for our fandoms and fantasies. And I'll be damned if I let some little peon tell me that my getting into shape somehow jeopardizes any of my passions.

 

[xaszatm]

So...because it was always a cesspool, we should be proud of it? We should be proud that online gaming is full of misogynistic, racist, homophobic garbage? The fact that we are trying to get rid of this is a bad thing? Is really asking people to think before they open their mouths special treatment? To show common decency? To realize that other people are PEOPLE?

Are you seriously asking if advocating "to get rid of [dissenting opinions]" is a bad thing? I know this subject is generally discouraged from bringing up, but do you really want to go down that path? Ein Volk, ein Rich, ein Furher.
Now I realize that you may have good intentions, but the moment you start demanding that dissenting opinions should be completely silenced, you start to walk a very fine line between having good intentions and repeating the mistakes of the past [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facism].

As for how people should communicate to one another, its one thing to ask that a person not say something but its quiet another the demand or expect people to conform to your ideas and censor themselves, because it IS special treatment to be forced to give special consideration to the feelings of one group of people over that of another group of people.

I literally cannot comprehend your thinking. Maybe I'm too naive, but I thought that the Cross Assault guy was wrong. That mean-spirited name calling WASN'T part of our culture and if it was, SHOULDN'T be. But here I'm seeing that it is something we should be proud of?!? And when anyone wants people to not to such a thing is "White Knighting?" "Giving Special Treatment?"

Again, you don't have to like that part of the culture, but the idea that things that you find offensive should be completely banned isn't going to sit well with most people-or as Steve Fry summarized it... [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqPcjm-X5GQ]

1. Yes, someone can. Someone can use those words without hating homosexuals. However, it must also be said that words have consequences. Saying terms like fag and gay in such hateful manner can and will be taken in the same manner one says N***** and C*****.
2. Okay, so that is a good excuse for their behavior? The fact that they are afraid of what they might say might offend women? That speaks to a bigger social problem.
3. The reason people ask people to watch what they say is because of history. Stick and stones may break bones, but words can show underlining hatreds. Just look at America during the civil rights movement when words BECAME sticks and stones. Watch how watching a black person hang became like a family gathering. Watch the casual misogyny many senators make when restricting women's rights. The thing with words is, if you say it enough times, you start to believe its true, and that can take humanity to truly dark places.

1.First off the words are ****** and Cracker(?), not N***** and C*****. Second off, I must repeat the question that Stephen Fry has proposed above, so what if a person finds those words offensive? They can just mute the person or say something back that is equally offensive.
2. True, the social problem is that people are overly concerned about the consequences of being demonized for voicing an dissenting thought/form of humor/ect.
3.Almost got it, but it goes "Sticks and Stones can break my bones, but WORDS CAN NEVER HURT ME", and while that may not always be the case, fortunately people can just mute those who they don't care to listen to. As for the rest of your comment, lol. You truly give Xboxlive more credit than it deserves if you seriously think that people trash talking on COD could ever amount to the passing of racist/misogynistic federal laws in the United States or any country for that matter.

Finally I'll leave you with this video, it's quiet relevant to the topic and its something that could really do you some good to match and consider...

You know, you countered my argument with the exact argument I was making? I wasn't saying we should BAN saying these words. I was saying that such attitudes SHOULDN'T be the normal thing. It shouldn't be normal for online game chat to dissolve into such a cesspool. And there is a difference between banning something and showing that we don't like something. You are free to say mean, rude, nasty things and I'm free to call you out on such behavior. Also, you really need to eat your own words. If you say that because I want to censor words (which I DIDN'T say, by the way), I will be leading to a slippery BAN EVERYTHING mantra but then in another response say that nothing will come from the cesspool of the internet, you leading a double standard. It's not a slippery slope here, but it is here thing.

Also, you seem to get the idea that such name calling should be normal because its on the internet. Well, what happens if ANYONE does the garbage they do in a public place like the mall? or at stores? They will be probably kicked out for "disturbing the peace." So, why is it when the internet does it, it's suddenly censorship? It's not.

Also, I censor words mainly because I do that in real life. It admittedly funny when I stub my toe as I will start sounding like a censor button during an televised R-rated movie.

 

[daxterx2005]

Neesh? You mean niche?

 

[Machine Man 1992]

Those "homophobic, sexist, trolls" you rail against are just that-- trolls. They aren't going away, ever, no matter how much mainstreaming is done.

So man the fuck up and deal with it.

And what do you care anyway? You, by your own admission, don't play games online, outsider.

He didn't say trolls, you did. Unless you're quoting someone else in this thread and forgot to actually quote them.

No, we shouldn't have to deal with that crap, and there are ways to disown the trolls, to let them know they're not welcome in the community, to refuse to play with them, to ban them from forums, they'll still exist, but they won't be among us if we just put a little freaking effort in to calling them out.

Oh, and nice job being open-minded there about people that don't play games online, wanker...

I'm used to posting on TVtropes. If I could, "outsider" would have been a link to "Joking Mode" but whatev's.

You do realize the only way to make trolls go away is to just ignore them right? It's kind of ironic that your solution to discrimination is MORE discrimination, when a FUCKING MUTE BUTTON EXISTS.

Honestly, am I the only one who knows that there is a way to silence players you don't like? Am I the only one who looks in the goddamned options menu, and checks to see what my voice chat settings are?

Why has it gotten to the point where individual initiative has taken a back seat to molly coddling thin-skinned whiners, who can't handle the fact that people say mean things on the internet?

 

[Proeliator]

So we should be like Nerdfighters?

Or should we be like Love and Tolerate Bronies?

I think we should go the first route, but I'm cool for whatever man. It's your playground too, just don't forget to be awesome.
(I've just stared watching all of Brotherhood 2.0; I'm starting to like it. Plus I wonder what this discussion would be like in your pants...)

Edit: and, by random happenstance, there is a French the Llama profile pic above me. I am without words

 

[The Material Sheep]

What's this "we" stuff, ke-mo sah-bee?

I think that is the biggest problem with the entire video and the majority of the responses in agreement with it.

I don't understand what point you're trying to make here (I don't know what "that" is referring to), so what follows is my best guess as to an appropriate response. If I've misunderstood you, please let me know how, and I'll try again.

"We" is a collective, first person pronoun. It refers to any group to which the speaker belongs. I did not attach any limiters or qualifiers indicating which group I'm claiming membership in because I am speaking of humanity in general: I believe that every human being can be better than ignoring the issues at hand for favor of swearing at someone, because it is, frankly, childish behavior.

I am not claiming or even advocating for uniformity or cohesion among the various subsets of geek. I am not saying that anyone's appreciation of comic books or sci-fi or video games of whatever instills with it a membership whose dues must be paid in the form of social service, or that your goals are or should be the same as mine. I am only saying that most of what I have read in this thread is the worst of what humanity has to offer, not because its evil is enormous and profound but because it's banal and reflexive; and that I think we can all aspire to be better than that.

lol... the worst of what humanity has to offer. Right, lets just cut the hyperbole a bit before we try a real conversation.

The point of what's this we shit, is ultimately that this kind of thing is not a collective business and that the view that I, or other like minded individuals, must take responsibility for geek culture. I do not perpetrate anything Bob says is wrong, and I'd agree that said things are wrong, even though I might disagree on how they should be dealt with or to the degree with which they occur.

Whats this WE shit, is an an argument not about being apart of a group, but that being part of a very large very vague group does not leave me with responsibility for what it does or what some of its members do.

 

[Gindil]

In connection to the Tropes vs Women reference, I don't take Alisia Sarkeesian seriously.

Watch her episode, then Facts vs Women and you'll see why.

While Thunderf00t's videos made rational counterpoints to Sarkeesian's videos, and that's a great start, we shouldn't forget the maelstrom of troll fire that arose after she announced her kickstarter

I'm not buying that...

I don't deny that it happened, but something acted as a trigger and IIRC, someone brought the Kickstarter to 4chan.

And spammed it to death in there. No one cared if she announced it, but why go and target the two largest communities that just want to enjoy good games or be left alone before trying to attack churches for lulz or other people?

 

[blalien]

In connection to the Tropes vs Women reference, I don't take Alisia Sarkeesian seriously.

Watch her episode, then Facts vs Women and you'll see why.

B-BUT WE'RE CHALLENGING THE VERY ICON OF FEMINISM IN GAMING AND THAT'S BAAAAAAD...

Bob boils every person who speaks against Tropes vs Women as mindless "THEY BE HATIN' ON MY MASCULINE MAN-MEAT BRO" when really there have been multiple people who have made legitimate arguments against her videos. He's a man of bias, and once he gets one, it's damn hard to shake it. See: Avengers, Amazing Spider-Man, J.J. Abrams after he hated the Lost finale.

Yes, I do love self-reflection, self-improvement, but not if you're unwilling to listen to every side and thereby, refuse to gain a better, more well-rounded and matured view.

MovieBob said nothing about the quality of Anita's videos, he was just referring to the insanely disproportionate level of vitriol she received for speaking her opinion. Why is this so hard for people to understand? You can comment on the people who swarmed her with rape and death threats and vandalized her site, and pointing out that her videos are subpar does absolutely nothing to refute that.

Here's a fun idea: the next time somebody starts a Kickstarter for something that doesn't look very good, just ignore them, or maybe list off the reasons you disapprove of their work. Nobody would be talking about Anita Sarkeesian right now if the first thing we all learned about her wasn't that some members of our community acted like a pack of fucking cavemen because she wanted some money for new AV equipment.

 

[Weaver]

Subconsciously, I at least think if a person looks like they have the choice to have lots of sex, they probably aren't a nerd. Is that fair? No. But neither is being born attractive. At least let the nerds have something.

Um, no. I've lost 10 pounds in the last month and a half, and I plan to keep running 2-3 miles four times a week and doing crunches, pushups, and chair-dips on the days I don't run until I hit my desired weight (and pant size). I wasn't "born attractive," I've been overweight since I was seven. Watching the fat slowly drain away from my front is a little more than satisfying, I will admit.

In the meantime, I love video games, fantasy films and books, animation, and I plan on joining the friends I made while playing FF11 in FF14 when it relaunches in August. I check my email nearly hourly to see if I've been accepted into the beta yet, so I can join just a bit earlier. I'm chomping at the bit to see the new Doctor Who special in November, and have been satisfying myself with the Classic Who while I wait. Just earlier today I was practicing animation and drawing the human figure by rotoscoping a slow-motion video I downloaded from YouTube of Shaolin monks doing flips and kicks, while on my other monitor streaming Fullmetal Alchemist on Netflix. I've seen Brotherhood through to the end, so I was just wanting to watch the original series to see the differences between the two. I was wanting to get through D-Gray man, but for some reason in the second season Netflix only has the subbed version, and I can't exactly listen to subtitles while animating. And last week I was marathoning the Phantom of the Opera and Into the Woods because I rediscovered how much I love musicals.

Those are my interests, that's what makes me a "nerd." If I do continue to lose weight, what does that have to do with anything? Robin Williams named his daughter Zelda, because he loved the idea of naming his daughter after a beautiful and admirable princess. While he may not be the sexiest man in the world (though not totally repulsive, either) he is extremely charismatic, and looking at him the first thing you wouldn't think is "Oh, he's a nerd." And then look at Vin Diesel, probably the only video game nerd who's actually managed to pull off the self-insertion dream in both the forms of blockbuster movies and AAA video games.

Nerds are not defined by any physical characteristics. Just because you're physically attractive doesn't affect your ability to love games or fiction, and nor does being physically unattractive necessarily mean you are more likely to enjoy those things. We are bound together by our compulsive and sometimes indescribable love for our fandoms and fantasies. And I'll be damned if I let some little peon tell me that my getting into shape somehow jeopardizes any of my passions.

I didn't claim it "jeopardizes your passions" in any way. Being attractive doesn't mean you can't be a nerd, it means people are automatically going to be more skeptical about it. It's not fair, but it's life.

I go to the gym 3 - 5 times a week and I'm a computer programmer.

There is a marked difference between a geek and a nerd IMO. Liking comics, anime, etc. is one thing, but you're not a nerd. You're a geek. Maybe I have the terms flipped around? To me a nerd, in definition, lies solely in terms of computers, physics, math or other pursuits; it's a byproduct of losing yourself in what you do, often at the expense of a lot of things. Often friends, family, romance... sometimes hygiene (anyone who has done 4 - 5 years in Computer Science knows how some people smell). There is nothing glamorous about it and you don't do it because you want to, you do it because you have to.

I know this has nothing to do with bob's video.

 

[Helmholtz Watson]

You know, you countered my argument with the exact argument I was making? I wasn't saying we should BAN saying these words. I was saying that such attitudes SHOULDN'T be the normal thing.

Really? Because when I read this...

So...because it was always a cesspool, we should be proud of it? We should be proud that online gaming is full of misogynistic, racist, homophobic garbage? The fact that we are trying to get rid of this is a bad thing? Is really asking people to think before they open their mouths special treatment? To show common decency? To realize that other people are PEOPLE?

...you come off as if you were advocating that certain attitudes/comments/ect. should be censored or that "we [should] tr[y] to get rid of th[ese]" kinds of things, i.e. ban them from being expressed online.

It shouldn't be normal for online game chat to dissolve into such a cesspool. And there is a difference between banning something and showing that we don't like something.

First off, who are you to decide that everybody else should conform to your sense of decency? Second off, who is this "we" because while I might not like what is sometimes said online, I'm not about to advocate that a person shouldn't be allowed to say it.

You are free to say mean, rude, nasty things and I'm free to call you out on such behavior.

I agree.

Also, you really need to eat your own words. If you say that because I want to censor words (which I DIDN'T say, by the way), I will be leading to a slippery BAN EVERYTHING mantra but then in another response say that nothing will come from the cesspool of the internet, you leading a double standard.

What are you even talking about? How is it a double standard for me to say that what your advocating is censorship and that XboxLive conversations won't result into Federal Laws on minority rights? The first thing is just an observation and commentary on your idea of how XboxLive should operate and the second response is where I pointed out that you were bringing up red herrings because XboxLive chat won't result into federal laws for Minority rights.

It's not a slippery slope here, but it is here thing.

Huh? I think you might want to go back and reread that last part because, "but it is here thing" doesn't make sense as a sentence.

Also, you seem to get the idea that such name calling should be normal because its on the internet. Well, what happens if ANYONE does the garbage they do in a public place like the mall? or at stores? They will be probably kicked out for "disturbing the peace." So, why is it when the internet does it, it's suddenly censorship? It's not.

What? Are you not aware of groups like the WBC, Neo-Nazi marches, EDL, Canadian "feminist" [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvYyGTmcP80][footnote]I'm not saying that they represent all feminist in Canada, though this video is what I imagine a lot of youtube arguments would look like in real life.[/footnote], political protest, and the various other forms of communication that people express in public spaces?

As for your comment about the internet and real life, the difference is also while I might not be able to say whatever I want in a mall, I most certainly can go in my backyard and express whatever opinion I like. The same can not be said about limiting what people can say on Xboxlive, because its not as if your saying that Xbox should create certain channels for kids where in which there would be rules on language, but you are stating that ALL of the Xboxlive channels/groups/parties/whatever should be subject to having their language monitored.

I can understand if for example you wanted to make it that games rated E should have "cesspool" free XboxLive communication do to the rating of the games and the likelihood that children will play them, but you seem to want to not just stop there, but also target games that are rated T, M, or even A as well and treat those people the same way you would treat children. The last thing people need is for you to play parent to groups of people that are old enough to buy the game in the first place[footnote]Before it is brought up, it falls upon to buy age appropriate games for their kids and to not just ignorantly buy games rated M for kids that are 8 years old. Video games are not a substitute nanny.[/footnote]

 

[JimB]

Honestly, am I the only one who knows that there is a way to silence players you don't like? Am I the only one who looks in the goddamned options menu, and checks to see what my voice chat settings are?

Aren't you advocating willful blindness as a solution to the problem?

"The worst of what humanity has to offer." Right, let's just cut the hyperbole a bit before we try a real conversation.

That's not hyperbole on my part. I am less horrified by the enormous evils (I provided an example here that I just deleted because I don't want to change the subject) than I am by the small meanness I've seen in this thread because that sort of rottenness is so pervasive and self-perpetuating, especially here on the internet, where cynicism is all but synonymous with credibility and three out of four conversations are a rush to see who can insult the other guy more. It's not the foulness that happens in extraordinary circumstances that concerns me as much as the foulness we commit in ordinary circumstances and tolerate as being normal. That enormous, torpid weight of social apathy is the worst of humanity I can imagine.

The point of what's this we shit, is ultimately that this kind of thing is not a collective business and that the view that I, or other like minded individuals, must take responsibility for geek culture.

If you accept the label "geek," then yes, you do take responsibility for the culture. You're a part and a participant, and everything that happens in the name of the geek happens with your enthusiastic support, with your silent support, or because you didn't do enough to stop it from happening. This is the responsibility all of us bear, not in the geek culture but in every culture.

 

[Canadamus Prime]

The thing is Bob, we AREN'T better. We're just as bad if not worse than those who always looked down on and persecuted us for so long.

Whats the 'we' stuff ke-mo sah-bee? This is what I don't understand. I understand fighting for your personal beliefs and when you actively include yourself in a group to try and oppose certain behaviors. I get this. However, geek culture is now a broad mainstream force which will develop on its own, in its own way. I am not to blame for it's current or past direction. I am not to blame for the actions of thousands of people who all claim to be under the same nebulous term 'geek'. I will not impose myself on others with the pretense of being 'progressive' a term so overly stated by people convinced in their own self righteousness.

I am a gay woman, and a geek. I've seen baseless exclusion and hate. I've been apart of this culture for most of my life. However, I cannot make the culture better but I can choose my friends, and my groups. I choose to be around people who don't support stupid and irrational behaviors. That is all you have at the end of the day. A choice. In what you do, and who you associate with. You can't control the actions of others and the more you go down the path the more of an oppressor you'll be regardless of your intentions. To give an equally trite saying in response to Bob's "The path to hell is paved with good intentions."



So... that was a bit of my personal opinion in counter to Bob's call for a collective opposition to the cultural direction. In a similar grandstanding fashion.

By 'we' I mean the geek community at large as represented by the morons who sent Anita Sarkesian Death and/or rape threats. The kind that get up in arms whenever anyone dares to even suggest that gaming might have problems withing it's community. The kind like that fat fuck a while back who belittled a girl he was coaching in a fighting game tournament in a very sexist way and tried to claim that sexism was part of the 'culture'.
And while I've never done any of those things, I'm not arrogant to presume I'm better than the rest of the community or not capable of them.