The Counterpoint

[MetalMagpie]

Yay, this again.

Men and women both get portrayed with varying degrees of "accuracy" (whatever that means) in the media. How is it even possible to be sure which (if either) side is being portrayed inaccurately more often, and why does it matter? Where are the young men who assume Jessica Rabbit is an accurate portrayal of a woman when they meet real women every day?

1. People are not idiots. Anyone without a serious mental disorder can tell the difference between fiction and reality.

2. Entertainment is meant to be entertaining (to its target audience at least). If it was going to be a flawless reflection of reality, then we might as well just sit on park benches and watch reality instead.

3. Protection from being made fun of is not a human right. Unless you can convince a court that the portrayal of women in a piece of media is causing you serious emotional distress, you're not going to get anywhere.

And let's not forget the Golden Rule of Entertainment: If you don't like it, don't watch it.

I don't think this is about how unrealistic portrayal of women in videogames affect the mindset of the general population (I feel that's a "hardcore feminist" point of view), but more like "women in videogames are often poorly represented, and there is a general lack of compelling female characters. I wouldn't mind an improvement" kind of situation.

Of course everyone can tell the difference between fiction and reality, or otherwise we would all die by imitating superman, at one point (I always thought flying was a cool super power, if a bit too common ^_^), I seriously hope no one argued that (although something could be said about forming people's opinions, but videogames have a marginal role even among gamers, I think, as social interactions are our main source of feedback regarding our behaviour).

People are complaining about this because they feel this is getting in their way of having fun. It's not about a single game or a genre, but it's more like this situation pops-up in various games, often with no good reason (I hope that we can agree when I say that often, this adds nothing to the experience).

I don't know if the majority of people want the pandering to disappear, I think they just want more options, and more games with content that doesn't appear silly or unappealing to them. This has nothing to do with hurt feelings, or at least, it shouldn't.

People that complain probably don't play those games to begin with, and are having a hard time finding something that suits them, so they are making sure their complains are heard, in order to have something to watch.

Well, if it's just about "I want more content that I like" then why do people drag sexism, feminism, etc. into it? And why does the comic describe it as women being "misrepresented in the media"?

I'd like more steampunk-inspired shooters (decent ones, not that Damnation piece of rubbish). And for more games that allow riding a horse to also allow using the horse as a weapon. And more pet dinosaurs.

There's plenty of video game (and TV, book, film, etc.) content in the world that doesn't appeal to me. And there are plenty of game design decisions that get in the way of my fun that aren't gender related.

But there are enough different video games that there are still plenty that do appeal to me. Maybe I'm just less fussy than most people. *shrug*

 

[Naeras]

The reason why DOA girls are all jiggly, wasp-waisted waifs is the same reason why Kratos is 7 feet of steel-reinforced steroid.

Yup. They're both catering to male fantasies.
..wait a minute, that kind of ruins that point. D:

 

[CrazyCapnMorgan]

The reason why DOA girls are all jiggly, wasp-waisted waifs is the same reason why Kratos is 7 feet of steel-reinforced steroid.

No, actually, it really isn't.

The DOA chicks look like that because that's what guys (at least, the guys who play those games) want to look at.

Kratos is the way he is because that's what guys want to look like, and therefor play as.

I wonder who all those guys are that want to look like Kratos. His physique is utterly ridiculous. Then again, I can't stand God of War so perhaps I'm just not in the right demographic to judge such things...

Individual tastes notwithstanding, I'm sure there are more guys who want to be Kratos than there are girls who want to fuck Kratos.

As I said in another gender inequalities thread, using the Kratos example has always puzzled me. The man is (especially by the end of God of War 3) an irredeemable, murdering bastard, who slaughters is own wife and child and then destroys the entire world in pursuit of his own personal revenge. Yeah, I'm sure those are the exact qualities a woman looks for in a man, and that's without even going into his physical appearance.

May I remind you that Joran van der Sloot (murderer of one woman and suspected of killing Natalie Holloway) has been confirmed to have gotten a woman pregnant while in jail during an unsupervised visit? Or that time where Ted Bundy (not the shoe salesman) was being tried and women were giving him love letters and fucking WEDDING PROPOSALS?

*ahem*

Snarky comment aside, there are only three basic differences between men and women that I give any relevance to. In ALL other aspects, men and women are equal. Here are the three that I've seen:

1) Women are generally built tougher while men are generally built stronger. Both have scientific data backing them and the former was a myth tested, and confirmed, by the Mythbusters. Side comment: no one is generally built intelligent.

2) "Women are crazy, men are stupid; and one of the main reasons women are crazy is because men are stupid. It's not the only reason, but it's a big one." - George Carlin. We have had intelligence and sanity from both genders in this regard; however, when it comes to general basics, I've always found this little observation by one of the world's best social critics to have a ring of truth to it.

3) Reproduction. Men contribute anywheres between 9 seconds and 2 hours to this process, women contribute roughly 9 months or more. I'd like to see the average male on this planet take anywhere between a seven and nine pound dump in one turd and NOT scream or show any signs of pain during that process. If successful, I'd love to hear their views on pregnancy shortly after their experience.

I hope I never have to repeat this (but I'm guessing I will, more than once): anyone who uses difference to prove ANYTHING is either profiting from it and/or using it to improve their own self-esteem.

 

[mdqp]

Well, if it's just about "I want more content that I like" then why do people drag sexism, feminism, etc. into it? And why does the comic describe it as women being "misrepresented in the media"?

I'd like more steampunk-inspired shooters (decent ones, not that Damnation piece of rubbish). And for more games that allow riding a horse to also allow using the horse as a weapon. And more pet dinosaurs.

There's plenty of video game (and TV, book, film, etc.) content in the world that doesn't appeal to me. And there are plenty of game design decisions that get in the way of my fun that aren't gender related.

But there are enough different video games that there are still plenty that do appeal to me. Maybe I'm just less fussy than most people. *shrug*

I think the comic is mainly talking about the most used counterpoint to this particular issue people sometimes bring up (I feel women are poorly represented and I don't like it vs. Men are misrepresented too, so suck it up). Not necessarily those who raise the point of female characters not fulfilling their potential in videogames see it as sexism or feminism, but those who use that counterpoint seem to perceive that, and take men vs. women attitutde toward the whole debate. That isn't to say that there aren't people that have an agenda and try to snuck it in every possible debate (pointing finger at everything to yell feminism, sexism, etc) but I don't think that the two are so tightly connected as some would want them to be (and I think we both agree this isn't so).

I think your idea for a game is awesome, can we start a petition?
People are simply trying to put some pressure to the industry in order to change something they feel are a common trait of too many games and that they feel it's detrimental to the quality of the games. I don't think that's wrong, and corporations are slow to adapt, so it's always a good idea to let them know as soon as possible of your desires, or it will take them forever to change their direction.

Perfectly true, many issues around the world on many things, we are just discussing one in particular, that people seem to feel strongly about (I am annoyed by it because I feel it's too widespread, and because it's often tied with poor writing, since those characters tend to be shallow and offer almost nothing to the narrative).

Feeling that you already have enough choices is a valid point of view, but if other people want more, they should say so, it's not like anyone will be hurt by their asking for it. For example, I was disappointed in the lack of turn-based RPGs in recent years, so I am happy to hear about games that are being funded through kickstarter that seem to cater to my taste. You might feel this is a relatively small issue in the economy of the game industry, but to it has started to feel like they are weakening games in various areas, just to show something I don't care about, and that is already present in a lot of games, so why not discuss the issue, at least?

 

[franksands]

But not all women are naked and sexualized to hell and back in video games, you are overreacting. Most of the major franchises have none of this. What are the big games nowadays? CoD, Uncharted, Gears of War, Halo, GTA, Assassin's Creed and Red Dead Redemption come to mind. NONE of these games have female characters clearly made as an object of sexual lust for men. None of them. You find these classic bikini warrior females in niche games like Hack & Slash, JRPGs and Fighting Games. Not in the broad mainstream.

1)So you're saying that games that have NO women in them do not suffer of women being oversexualized? That's a relief.
2)I never played Red Dead Redemption, but I have seen some friends playing it and the only female characters I saw were cliche whores. Not a very good example of strong female characters.
3)I don't have a problem with erotic games, I've played some very good flash games on playforceone, but there the goal of the game is to see women having sex. If a game were honest with what's it is about I have no problem with it, and even then, it's possible to do a sex game without having women as the weak character

a) Females don't care a lot about naked male skin --> Ezio fandom (seriously, look it up)
b) Be honest, how many of your female and male friends really play a lot of video games that are more than iOS and free online games?

I don't know anything about Ezio, but knowing rule #34 I bet there is. But there's a difference between fandom and slashfic and these things being in the game as in Miranda in ME2.
Secondly, are you really, honestly saying girls only play iOS farm games and whatnot? Seriously? Do you get out much? Because just in my office I have two female coworkers: One love WoW, and not the cutesie fanserviced night elves, she plays in the Horde with a minotaur. The other has a PS3 and from what I know plays a lot more Prototype and Infamous than Rayman or Kingdom Hearts. She in particular hates all this touchy feely stuff normally associated with women. And that's just the people I have more contact with. I also remember a friend from college that his girlfriend really kicked ass in starcraft and wiped the floor with any one that played with her.

About the list, I know there are a few almost naked characters, like Kratos, but I don't remember the camera zooming on kratos ass.

 

[NinjaDeathSlap]

The reason why DOA girls are all jiggly, wasp-waisted waifs is the same reason why Kratos is 7 feet of steel-reinforced steroid.

No, actually, it really isn't.

The DOA chicks look like that because that's what guys (at least, the guys who play those games) want to look at.

Kratos is the way he is because that's what guys want to look like, and therefor play as.

I wonder who all those guys are that want to look like Kratos. His physique is utterly ridiculous. Then again, I can't stand God of War so perhaps I'm just not in the right demographic to judge such things...

Individual tastes notwithstanding, I'm sure there are more guys who want to be Kratos than there are girls who want to fuck Kratos.

As I said in another gender inequalities thread, using the Kratos example has always puzzled me. The man is (especially by the end of God of War 3) an irredeemable, murdering bastard, who slaughters is own wife and child and then destroys the entire world in pursuit of his own personal revenge. Yeah, I'm sure those are the exact qualities a woman looks for in a man, and that's without even going into his physical appearance.

May I remind you that Joran van der Sloot (murderer of one woman and suspected of killing Natalie Holloway) has been confirmed to have gotten a woman pregnant while in jail during an unsupervised visit? Or that time where Ted Bundy (not the shoe salesman) was being tried and women were giving him love letters and fucking WEDDING PROPOSALS?

*ahem*

Snarky comment aside, there are only three basic differences between men and women that I give any relevance to. In ALL other aspects, men and women are equal. Here are the three that I've seen:

1) Women are generally built tougher while men are generally built stronger. Both have scientific data backing them and the former was a myth tested, and confirmed, by the Mythbusters. Side comment: no one is generally built intelligent.

2) "Women are crazy, men are stupid; and one of the main reasons women are crazy is because men are stupid. It's not the only reason, but it's a big one." - George Carlin. We have had intelligence and sanity from both genders in this regard; however, when it comes to general basics, I've always found this little observation by one of the world's best social critics to have a ring of truth to it.

3) Reproduction. Men contribute anywheres between 9 seconds and 2 hours to this process, women contribute roughly 9 months or more. I'd like to see the average male on this planet take anywhere between a seven and nine pound dump in one turd and NOT scream or show any signs of pain during that process. If successful, I'd love to hear their views on pregnancy shortly after their experience.

I hope I never have to repeat this (but I'm guessing I will, more than once): anyone who uses difference to prove ANYTHING is either profiting from it and/or using it to improve their own self-esteem.

Well, I never said that there weren't any women out there who wanted to fuck Kratos, there are conceivably a few. I was just pointing out that, looking at his behaviour, I doubt he was designed to be a Paragon of 'What Women Want'.

Can't argue with the rest of your post (well, except for number 3, where I have to point out that, painful as it would still probably be regardless, a man's anus is not designed to dilate 10cm first).

Now, moving swiftly on from the mental image I just gave myself...

 

[RJ 17]

There is a difference between being portrayed unrealistically, and being portrayed demeaningly my fellow Y chromosome owners.

You mean like how every man in every commercial you've ever seen is depicted as a clumbsy, stupid, absolutely incompotent donkey who'd get tangled up in the blinds if his brilliant wife weren't there to run every aspect of his life for him?

Captcha: "Cubic Spline".......the fuck?

Now honestly, Isn't that more wish fulfillment more than anything else? No matter how stupid or useless the guy is, he always has a hot wife to go home to and fix everything for him? These sorts of guys are pretty obviously set up as clowns, I mean nobody should really view Homer Simpson as a role model. Besides that stereotype just puts puts more pressure on women to put up with oblivious man-children while taking care of the actual children AND keep themselves looking personal stylist beautiful.

Wish fulfillment? Nope, can't say I see it as that. Because even in THAT case it just FURTHER emphasizes the fact that not only are men clumbsy, stupid, and incompotent, but they actively WANT to be clumbsy, stupid, and incompotent. It suggests that all men really want is a hot wife to take care of them so they can sit around on the couch Al Bundy style with one hand on the remote and the other down their pants.

Indeed, Homer and Al are not meant to be role models, they're parodies. That such commercials and TV characters are "wish fulfillment" implies that men WANT to see those two as role models so they, themselves, can be fat, stupid, and lazy with a wife that handles everything for them.

 

[Phuturist]

Mr. Franksands yours was a terrible post and you should feel ashamed.

1)So you're saying that games that have NO women in them do not suffer of women being oversexualized? That's a relief.

Only CoD has no women.

2)I never played Red Dead Redemption, but I have seen some friends playing it and the only female characters I saw were cliche whores. Not a very good example of strong female characters.

"I have no idea but I it's a bad example anyway." fantastic. Look up Bonnie MacFarlane. Or don't and be quiet about it.

3)I don't have a problem with erotic games, I've played some very good flash games on playforceone, but there the goal of the game is to see women having sex. If a game were honest with what's it is about I have no problem with it, and even then, it's possible to do a sex game without having women as the weak character

I don't get why you mention that sexual content in games should be binary, meaning not there at all or everything about the game, and it has nothing to do with the discussion but fine, have it your way.

I don't know anything about Ezio, but knowing rule #34 I bet there is. But there's a difference between fandom and slashfic and these things being in the game as in Miranda in ME2.

You don't get it. Men find Miaranda attractive (I suppose, although most don't) because she has big breasts. Females find Ezio attractive because he is mysterious, charming and strong. There is not market for Ezio crotch bulge shots because nobody is into that, not even females. That was my point.

Secondly, are you really, honestly saying girls only play iOS farm games and whatnot? Seriously?

No I did not.

Do you get out much?

Oh christ, I shouldn't even reply to your post.

Because just in my office I have two female coworkers: One love WoW, and not the cutesie fanserviced night elves, she plays in the Horde with a minotaur. The other has a PS3 and from what I know plays a lot more Prototype and Infamous than Rayman or Kingdom Hearts. She in particular hates all this touchy feely stuff normally associated with women. And that's just the people I have more contact with. I also remember a friend from college that his girlfriend really kicked ass in starcraft and wiped the floor with any one that played with her.

Bravo. That's 3. How many guys have you met that played video games to the extend of those 3 girls? No really, answer me, look at the numbers and then come at me with that argument again.

About the list, I know there are a few almost naked characters, like Kratos, but I don't remember the camera zooming on kratos ass.

Yeah, that was the one character that I mentioned that is probably not designed for females.

 

[RJ 17]

There is a difference between being portrayed unrealistically, and being portrayed demeaningly my fellow Y chromosome owners.

You mean like how every man in every commercial you've ever seen is depicted as a clumbsy, stupid, absolutely incompotent donkey who'd get tangled up in the blinds if his brilliant wife weren't there to run every aspect of his life for him?

Captcha: "Cubic Spline".......the fuck?

Now honestly, Isn't that more wish fulfillment more than anything else? No matter how stupid or useless the guy is, he always has a hot wife to go home to and fix everything for him? These sorts of guys are pretty obviously set up as clowns, I mean nobody should really view Homer Simpson as a role model. Besides that stereotype just puts puts more pressure on women to put up with oblivious man-children while taking care of the actual children AND keep themselves looking personal stylist beautiful.

Wish fulfillment? Nope, can't say I see it as that. Because even in THAT case it just FURTHER emphasizes the fact that not only are men clumbsy, stupid, and incompotent, but they actively WANT to be clumbsy, stupid, and incompetent. It suggests that all men really want is a hot wife to take care of them so they can sit around on the couch Al Bundy style with one hand on the remote and the other down their pants.

Indeed, Homer and Al are not meant to be role models, they're parodies. That such commercials and TV characters are "wish fulfillment" implies that men WANT to see those two as role models so they, themselves, can be fat, stupid, and lazy with a wife that handles everything for them.

Yeah PARODIES. So they aren't ment to be taken seriously. Even if they were, that's holding men to ridiculously Low than the ridiculously high standards of appearance women are held to. Besides it's not the the laziness that's the wish fulfillment, it's the hot wife that's devoted to you.

And so the demeaning portrayals of women are supposed to be taken seriously? You're still dodging the point, it really isn't that complicated. Parody or not, most media still depicts men in insulting and demeaning ways. The fact that you seem to be saying "Oh well you're just supposed to laugh at them and pay it no attention" is even more insulting because THAT implies that male behavior is nothing but one big joke. You can tell a horrendously racist joke and say "Oh I'm just joking for the laughs", but that doesn't make what you said any less racist, does it?

And since when is being held to a lower standard a good thing? Should men not be held to as high a standard as women? Oh, that's right, men are incompotent jokes and it's alright because we're meant to laugh at them. If that's the case, then there's nothing wrong with the mindset of "well women are held to a higher standard of responsibility but that's alright because they're supposed to be eye-candy that takes care of everything."

Look, here's the breakdown. The entire point is that it's bad to generalize the genders into stereotypes. It happens to men AND women, neither one is good. The stereotypes are that women should be nothing but eye-candy and men are nothing but jokes. The fact that it also happens to men certainly does not justify it also happening to women, however the fact that it happens to men does prove that the perceived inequality isn't there. It happens to EVERYONE, regardless of gender. I'm sure women find it insulting that they're depicted as unimportant arm-trophies for a man, just as I personally find it insulting that men are depicted as fat, stupid, and incompotent.

 

[Soak]

*snip*

But to have something to say vaguely related, instead of both sides complaining at each other, why not work together and complain about both things at once?

Thankyouthankyouthankyouthankyou, oh so friggin thank you!

I restrain myself from bringing up all the wicked situations i already had in discussions about this matter, it's enough to point at where the one in this forum is going at.

Why is it so hard to just work together to put out this damn fire? Because we're not able to share the tools? Because we can't decide who gotta regulate the water and who holds the tube? Because we're to immobile to take turns in the process, or actually use it simultaneously? Better let everything burn to the ground first, eh? Typical problem of pretty much every solution to make and then nothing's getting fixed. I just don't get it, why this appears to be so much of a better choice for most people.

 

[Frostbite3789]

Snip

You seem a little angry man. Did I strike a nerve?

And besides, that's even what I said it is. It's the guys who feel like they have to argue something for a woman, because the women clearly can't do it themselves. I even described the exact situation. But you picked up on two words and got offended. Good job champ.

 

[IndomitableSam]

Can't argue with the rest of your post (well, except for number 3, where I have to point out that, painful as it would still probably be regardless, a man's anus is not designed to dilate 10cm first).

Now, moving swiftly on from the mental image I just gave myself...

Actually... we don't dilate that much either. Hopefully a doctor snips us open the rest of the way, but often women literally rip open until the anus and vagina are actually one hole until they're sewn back up.

Pretty picture, huh?

 

[NinjaDeathSlap]

Can't argue with the rest of your post (well, except for number 3, where I have to point out that, painful as it would still probably be regardless, a man's anus is not designed to dilate 10cm first).

Now, moving swiftly on from the mental image I just gave myself...

Actually... we don't dilate that much either. Hopefully a doctor snips us open the rest of the way, but often women literally rip open until the anus and vagina are actually one hole until they're sewn back up.

Pretty picture, huh?

Spoiler

Why? Why would you do that to me? I was innocent until today! D':

 

[thepyrethatburns]

I think the main problem with this comic....other than "oh boy, is it feminism tuesday already?"...is the way they're illustrating it.

The illustration that they use is one of a woman getting burned and the two guys shrugging it off. In this case, this is actually an excellent counterpoint almost to the point of shutting down the conversation.

Why?

Because, without going to TV Tropes, violence against males has been a long accepted practice in our media whether it is video games or movies. Since Kratos has been mentioned, we can see that the next game is going to back away from violence against women or any female creatures. Males, on the other hand, are going to continue to have Kratos expose their insides to the outsides. Females are quite often the minority in the cannon fodder section usually only coming in as sub-bosses/bosses if at all.

If the comic had addressed the sexual portrayal of females vs males or even sexualizing violence against women, it may have had a point. As it is, the last panel should have had roughly 20-30 males on fire with 4 also having katanas stuck through their abdomen and 15 having taken a shotgun blast to the chest for it to actually be proportional. Under those circumstances, it is absolutely appropriate to make the counterpoint of how men are far more likely to have violence inflicted on them in any form of media than women.