The Deal with MMORPG's

[raichu845]

It's a Skinner Box. The game doles out little tasks and you get little rewards for accomplishing them. It's like a slow but steady drip in the pleasure center of your brain. The only way off is to recognize what's happening and either decide that you're okay with this, or to play games that reward you in other ways.

Well said.

I think mmorpg are bad games. They do have the potential to be GREAT games.... but 99,9% of them, if not 100% of them, are no more a videogame than a slot machine is.

Here's a big world to explore, full of armours to craft, enemies to fight, and characters of your own to create!!!! .......Ok, now please keep repeating the attack button. Repeat the attack button again. Again. Again. Again. Click click click click click clickclickclickclickclickclick

Yes I agree about the potential to be good games. What I don't understand is how this formula has persisted into 2014 with very little in the way of improvement.

It is amazing how such a formula that, when broken down, is so boring on paper yet works keeps people playing. I mean last time I checked there are 7 million+ subscribed to WoW alone. Combine that with the enormous numbers of other games such FFXIV and GW2 and the likes of Free to Play games and you have a ridiculous amount of people hooked on this formula. It is astounding when you put even a mere 5 minutes thinking about it especially from such a huge point of view.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

It is amazing how such a formula that, when broken down, is so boring on paper yet works keeps people playing. I mean last time I checked there are 7 million+ subscribed to WoW alone. Combine that with the enormous numbers of other games such FFXIV and GW2 and the likes of Free to Play games and you have a ridiculous amount of people hooked on this formula. It is astounding when you put even a mere 5 minutes thinking about it especially from such a huge point of view.

It's really not that astounding. They're well made and expansive games with massive budgets designed to appeal to a broad audience. Shocker...they tend to be pretty popular. Those that don't like them or understand the appeal of the genre like to use reductionist logic to try and explain away the popularity...the games are just skinner boxes, the players are addicts or idiots, everyone is drunk on a loot haze and just wants to see their numbers go up, etc, etc.

The genre has suffered some pretty bad creative stagnation in the wake of WoW. It's not that the games aren't solidly put together in their own right...they are...they're just waging this uphill battle against an entrenched competition with a decade and billions of dollars of development behind it. It's a battle they tend to lose.

 

[The Gnome King]

Now this is something that I can not answer myself, I know the reasoning behind it but I do not know why I keep playing MMORPG's and consider them to be some of my favourite games.

I do it for the people. Even though it's "few-and-far between" decent social interactions still happen and I remember, fondly, playing Everquest back in 1999. Like a cocaine addict I suppose I keep trying to get the feeling of that first fix.

(I still wax nostalgic about the original EQ and how... fresh... everything was. How dangerous. How you could be in a newbie zone and walk into something deadly. The little social spots people set up, like the "Commons Tunnel" ...)

And if you know what the "Commons Tunnel" area is, you're probably at least 30 years old.

Sigh.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

No, no. That describes mmorpg, and mmorpg ALONE.

Here's the deal: other videogames (say, an rpg like Dragon Age: Origins or the old school Baldur's Gate) still require you to point and click constantly. But if you just point and click and don't even think about what you're doing, you're dead in five seconds.

Mmorpg instead do not require any brain activity at all. Only mmorpg are like that, and intentionally so, because mmorpg actually mimick the principle of slot machines and pachinko.

So: nearly every videogame requires you do to the same thing over and over. But only mmorpg do not require any brain activity to it, and can be accomplished by bots.

Yeah, sorry. That's a bunch of nonsense.

I'll repeat what I said above. People who don't like or don't understand the genre appear to enjoy employing lazy or reductionist logic to try and describe it much the way you've described it above. I have no idea why it's invigorating for people to do this, but I don't pretend to be a psychologist.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Notice how the only two mmorpg I liked are games who aren't mmorpg (a sandbox, and a hack-and-slash). Because mmorpg are about click-clic-click-click to get the reward, while your brain is disconnected. Like a slot machine. And like a slot machine, you keep doing it to get the reward. It's a brain trick. More importantly: mmorpg are multiplayer, so you see other people who do the same as you, and you feel encouraged in thinking what you are doing isn't stupid.

I'm sorry if it offends you, but as arrogant as I will sound, I am positive mmorpg are EXACTLY like that. I should know, as I did try many of them.

(Please don't tell me "the game gets better when you're level 60". First thing, it's not true, second thing, even if it were true, do you want to spend money for getting whipped and punched for thirty minutes only to eat a delicious icecream the final five minutes?)

It doesn't "offend me". It might make me roll my eyes in exasperation and bemusement, but those are very different emotions from "offense".

Again, this is an absurdly reductionist argument. You're apparently completely convinced by it...as we often are when we present arguments to ourselves for evaluation...so there's no much point in attempting to debate this with you. If it floats your boat to presume the genre is a "brain trick" and that everyone who plays it is experiencing the delusion of entertainment, then who am I to gainsay that?

I will attempt to remind you that "It's just my opinion brah" is not an interesting or relevant rebuttal in a forum discussion. If you are going to make objective statements, you really need to substantiate them by arguing your position. And "I played them and this was my experience" is not an argument, it's anecdotal evidence. Yes, you click click click the mouse, because MMOs are most typically PC products and thus have mouse driven interfaces. A startling insight. You also tap tap tap the keyboard and/or wriggle your controller. Incredibly, these three forms of input drive interaction in every PC game ever made.

If you want to continue this in the form of a debate, you can start by explaining in detail how MMOs are indistinguishable mechanically from slot machines, how one's brain is "disconnected" through the experience and how it's even possible to "disconnect" one's brain to begin with (remember...ZERO brain activity required), and how they can be "accomplished by bots". Those would be good starting points. If you want to use Nick Yee's notorious article comparing Everquest to a Skinner Box as a jumping off point, you could also illustrate how Everquest differed from modern MMOs in several critical ways.

Alternatively, you can accept that you've assumed an indefensible and hyperbolic position as regards the genre, and either revise your argument or just shrug and carry on as if we never spoke. Whatever you feel is the best or most entertaining use of your time is fine by me.

 

[Kyrdra]

The only upcoming MMOs I have any sort of faith in are Star Citizen and World of Darkness.

I hope you are a patient man, my friend, because the World of Darkness MMO is looking at a 2015 launch date. Even then, I'm very skeptical, I'm thinking at best it will be ready for closed beta by then.

And even if it is ready by then it is CCP. They will totally fail with what they wanted and over the next years after that the game will get steadily better and become then finally good

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I can do all of this, no problem.

But here's a thing: it seems to me that, no matter what I will write, you're never going to say "my gosh, you're right! I never understood how my own opinion was wrong until you proved your point with these valid arguments!".... because no one has ever said that in an internet forum ever.

So, I can do all of that. But should I? Are you genuinely going to listen to me, and then I will listen to your argument in defense of mmorpg... or are you just going to blindly ignore my points, like people always do when they don't want to accept a point of view (try to put an atheist chatting with a believer)? Because I don't want to waste my time.

P.S.

Your avatar is cute.

Oh please do. I'm actually interested to see what you come up with. Whether or not I remain unconvinced will depend on how convincing you are.

Yeah it's adorable, isn't it? It's also not a guppy, but OH WELL. I like to think that its cheerful countenance makes my snarky posts exponentially more irritating. =P

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Both slot machines and mmorpg just require you do repeat a single, simple action over and over and over until you obtain a reward. The idea that you're moving towards a reward without stressing your mind or body is what makes slot machines compelling.

See, I was hoping you'd attempt to do this without reverting to reductionism. When you play a slot machine, you pull a lever, and hope for three symbols to match up. When you play an MMO, you are navigating a multitude of different systems. You're exploring, you're engaging in combat, you're analyzing gear setups and ability layouts, you're interacting with other human beings and occasionally managing social dynamics, etc, etc, etc, etc. Even reducing the most common activity...combat...to "I pull the lever" is reductionist, because even the simplest combat in an MMO is significantly more detailed than that, and the more complex ones actually involve no small amount of strategizing...either before or during combat...and more recent ones add in a lot of situational awareness and movement as well.

They're not remotely comparable to slot machines. Where that comparison was once valid was the comparison of EQ's loot/skill-up payoffs to the randomness of the slot machine pull, since they occurred at random intervals and the numbers were all "under the hood", so to speak. This is no longer the case with modern MMOs, or at least not anywhere near to the same extent.

I daresay that yes, there is indeed zero brain activity required

If there was zero brain activity you would be dead. As one of my original criticisms of your position was that it was hyperbolic, you might consider revising this.

Click the enemy to attack. Click the other button to cast a spell. Click button 1 again. Now button 2. You just keep clicking the buttons, without any real risk of losing (getting killed is very unlikely in most mmorpg, and if you do die, you don't really lose any progress).

This is most certainly untrue of a great many MMOs. While some have involved very simple/easy combat wherein success is almost a mathematical certainty in some encounters, the vast majority involve scaling difficulty and there is most definitely a risk of dying/losing progress. And the original "Skinner Box" comparable, Everquest, was blindingly difficult and dying could lose you a week of progress. I often castigate modern MMOs for their relative lack of difficulty compared to older offerings, and I'm an above-average player (though by no means pro), and even I die from time to time. I died 6 times the other day in an hour. Mind you, that game is still in beta and needs tuning.

Mmorpg have zero stress

That's news to me. I've seen many a player have borderline nervous breakdowns over MMO stress. If not achiever stress, then social stress.

and zero effort...

Also news to me. The skill cap on these games may not be DOTA/SC high, but it's most certainly higher than most players can achieve.

...because the brain never gets tired since it doesn't need to focus on dodging...

Buh? Even the now antiquated WoW involves copious dodging and situational awareness, and newer games have ACTUAL DODGE MECHANICS.

The reason they can be accomplished by bots is precisely because you just need to keep pressing a few buttons. No other videogame can be accomplished by a bot like that.

Some very basic functions can be replicated by bots. The vast majority of the experience is often never "accomplished" by the players, let alone bots, as they are games that are often functionally without an end state.

Keep in mind, yes, all videogames just require you to keep pressing a few buttons.

Yes, they do. Which is why I keep reminding you that attempting to describe the ENTIRE EXPERIENCE in those terms is reductionist. To an absurd degree, really. MMOs are actually amongst the most mechanically complex games on the market.

 

[Tuesday Night Fever]

No, no. That describes mmorpg, and mmorpg ALONE.

Here's the deal: other videogames (say, an rpg like Dragon Age: Origins or the old school Baldur's Gate) still require you to point and click constantly. But if you just point and click and don't even think about what you're doing, you're dead in five seconds.

Mmorpg instead do not require any brain activity at all. Only mmorpg are like that, and intentionally so, because mmorpg actually mimick the principle of slot machines and pachinko.

So: nearly every videogame requires you do to the same thing over and over. But only mmorpg do not require any brain activity to it, and can be accomplished by bots.

I'm playing Skyrim right now, on Legendary no less, and I can point and click constantly without thinking about what I'm doing and still come out on top regularly (Heavy Armor/Two-Hand Weapons). It's even more hilariously brainless if you're playing a Conjurer with access to Atronachs and Dremora Lords that do literally all of the fighting for you while you're free to hide in a corner or sneak around looting stuff.

I've played most of the big MMORPGs at one time or another (except the original Guild Wars), and to be a competent player the ability rotations and priority systems are usually more complex than anything found in Skyrim, or Fallout, or Call of Duty, or Dragon Age: Origins, or what have you.

If you're content with being an atrocious player and a complete waste of space in any party, then yes, brain activity requirement for MMORPGs is pretty low. To actually be successful, and not mooch off other players' success then they're pretty much on-par with any other game out there.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

But you love mmorpg.

No, I like MMORPGs. I love one or two. I dislike several. Much like most gamers do with most genres.

As for the rest of it...uh...okay then.

 

[Tuesday Night Fever]

You know, you should really read this article:

http://www.cracked.com/blog/understanding-the-world-of-warcraft-using-super-mario-brothers/

You'll benefit from it.

And it'll save me the time of writing you a longer reply.

Already read the article back when it was first posted. My point remains. You absolutely can play them brainlessly, and you absolutely can get loot doing that, but it will always be at the detriment to others. Others that don't play mindlessly.

And my point also remains that other games are just as brainless that aren't MMORPGs. Hell, many of them also have the same Skinner Box theories in them. The leveling up system in any modern Call of Duty, Medal of Honor, etc. multiplayer shooter for instance.

To actually be good at MMORPGs does require a level of skill competence that most other games actually don't possess (usually). That's not a dig at other games, they're just different. Differences aren't inherently bad.

I honestly find it odd that you held up Champions Online as an example of a paragon within the genre. I played CO, and was even part of the closed Beta back in the day. That game is, in my opinion, one of the worst examples, honestly. The game had some of the most brainless combat I've seen yet. My first character didn't even need to "click click click click" to success. All I had to do was click the Minigun ability (ranged, low-damage-per-hit extremely fast firing, cylindrical AoE) and hold the button down. With one button press everything in front of me would just melt away with zero effort. Pair it with the Regeneration passive defensive ability and I didn't even need to worry about defending myself. From the moment I unlocked those two abilities, I never needed to do anything complex ever again. As for the rest of the game, it's all pretty standard MMO affair. Create your character (pretty much the exact same system as City of Heroes but with fewer options and significantly more incompatabilities between various outfit pieces, so nothing new there), go out into a contained training area (see: most games), move on to an open world (see: pretty much every MMORPG), repeatedly do the same sort of kill X number of Y mob quest that every other MMORPG has, gain levels and slightly bigger numbers.

 

[Nielas]

If you're content with being an atrocious player and a complete waste of space in any party, then yes, brain activity requirement for MMORPGs is pretty low. To actually be successful, and not mooch off other players' success then they're pretty much on-par with any other game out there.

You know, you should really read this article:

http://www.cracked.com/blog/understanding-the-world-of-warcraft-using-super-mario-brothers/

You'll benefit from it.

And it'll save me the time of writing you a longer reply.

Well, Super Mario is pretty brainless game. You press the forward button and then every so often you press the jump button. Do it enough and in the right order and you win.

 

[gamernerdtg2]

It's a Skinner Box. The game doles out little tasks and you get little rewards for accomplishing them. It's like a slow but steady drip in the pleasure center of your brain. The only way off is to recognize what's happening and either decide that you're okay with this, or to play games that reward you in other ways.

Well said.

I think mmorpg are bad games. They do have the potential to be GREAT games.... but 99,9% of them, if not 100% of them, are no more a videogame than a slot machine is.

Here's a big world to explore, full of armours to craft, enemies to fight, and characters of your own to create!!!! .......Ok, now please keep repeating the attack button. Repeat the attack button again. Again. Again. Again. Click click click click click clickclickclickclickclickclick

Yes I agree about the potential to be good games. What I don't understand is how this formula has persisted into 2014 with very little in the way of improvement.

I'm not into the FF universe, but games like Wow are ones that I understand. If the numbers that you've put out are true, then more thought needs to be put into these games. Perhaps it's more about the "Online" part than the gameplay part of the equation. Even though the arcades are dead and buried, people still like to connect through gaming, and the internet does that in grand fashion. I wish more MMORPGs were like Vindictus in terms of the gameplay.
LOL "click click click" is not exactly my style, but I won't lie - I've done it.


It is amazing how such a formula that, when broken down, is so boring on paper yet works keeps people playing. I mean last time I checked there are 7 million+ subscribed to WoW alone. Combine that with the enormous numbers of other games such FFXIV and GW2 and the likes of Free to Play games and you have a ridiculous amount of people hooked on this formula. It is astounding when you put even a mere 5 minutes thinking about it especially from such a huge point of view.