The Deal with MMORPG's

[BloatedGuppy]

It is amazing how such a formula that, when broken down, is so boring on paper yet works keeps people playing. I mean last time I checked there are 7 million+ subscribed to WoW alone. Combine that with the enormous numbers of other games such FFXIV and GW2 and the likes of Free to Play games and you have a ridiculous amount of people hooked on this formula. It is astounding when you put even a mere 5 minutes thinking about it especially from such a huge point of view.

It's really not that astounding. They're well made and expansive games with massive budgets designed to appeal to a broad audience. Shocker...they tend to be pretty popular. Those that don't like them or understand the appeal of the genre like to use reductionist logic to try and explain away the popularity...the games are just skinner boxes, the players are addicts or idiots, everyone is drunk on a loot haze and just wants to see their numbers go up, etc, etc.

The genre has suffered some pretty bad creative stagnation in the wake of WoW. It's not that the games aren't solidly put together in their own right...they are...they're just waging this uphill battle against an entrenched competition with a decade and billions of dollars of development behind it. It's a battle they tend to lose.

 

[The Gnome King]

Now this is something that I can not answer myself, I know the reasoning behind it but I do not know why I keep playing MMORPG's and consider them to be some of my favourite games.

I do it for the people. Even though it's "few-and-far between" decent social interactions still happen and I remember, fondly, playing Everquest back in 1999. Like a cocaine addict I suppose I keep trying to get the feeling of that first fix.

(I still wax nostalgic about the original EQ and how... fresh... everything was. How dangerous. How you could be in a newbie zone and walk into something deadly. The little social spots people set up, like the "Commons Tunnel" ...)

And if you know what the "Commons Tunnel" area is, you're probably at least 30 years old.

Sigh.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

No, no. That describes mmorpg, and mmorpg ALONE.

Here's the deal: other videogames (say, an rpg like Dragon Age: Origins or the old school Baldur's Gate) still require you to point and click constantly. But if you just point and click and don't even think about what you're doing, you're dead in five seconds.

Mmorpg instead do not require any brain activity at all. Only mmorpg are like that, and intentionally so, because mmorpg actually mimick the principle of slot machines and pachinko.

So: nearly every videogame requires you do to the same thing over and over. But only mmorpg do not require any brain activity to it, and can be accomplished by bots.

Yeah, sorry. That's a bunch of nonsense.

I'll repeat what I said above. People who don't like or don't understand the genre appear to enjoy employing lazy or reductionist logic to try and describe it much the way you've described it above. I have no idea why it's invigorating for people to do this, but I don't pretend to be a psychologist.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Notice how the only two mmorpg I liked are games who aren't mmorpg (a sandbox, and a hack-and-slash). Because mmorpg are about click-clic-click-click to get the reward, while your brain is disconnected. Like a slot machine. And like a slot machine, you keep doing it to get the reward. It's a brain trick. More importantly: mmorpg are multiplayer, so you see other people who do the same as you, and you feel encouraged in thinking what you are doing isn't stupid.

I'm sorry if it offends you, but as arrogant as I will sound, I am positive mmorpg are EXACTLY like that. I should know, as I did try many of them.

(Please don't tell me "the game gets better when you're level 60". First thing, it's not true, second thing, even if it were true, do you want to spend money for getting whipped and punched for thirty minutes only to eat a delicious icecream the final five minutes?)

It doesn't "offend me". It might make me roll my eyes in exasperation and bemusement, but those are very different emotions from "offense".

Again, this is an absurdly reductionist argument. You're apparently completely convinced by it...as we often are when we present arguments to ourselves for evaluation...so there's no much point in attempting to debate this with you. If it floats your boat to presume the genre is a "brain trick" and that everyone who plays it is experiencing the delusion of entertainment, then who am I to gainsay that?

I will attempt to remind you that "It's just my opinion brah" is not an interesting or relevant rebuttal in a forum discussion. If you are going to make objective statements, you really need to substantiate them by arguing your position. And "I played them and this was my experience" is not an argument, it's anecdotal evidence. Yes, you click click click the mouse, because MMOs are most typically PC products and thus have mouse driven interfaces. A startling insight. You also tap tap tap the keyboard and/or wriggle your controller. Incredibly, these three forms of input drive interaction in every PC game ever made.

If you want to continue this in the form of a debate, you can start by explaining in detail how MMOs are indistinguishable mechanically from slot machines, how one's brain is "disconnected" through the experience and how it's even possible to "disconnect" one's brain to begin with (remember...ZERO brain activity required), and how they can be "accomplished by bots". Those would be good starting points. If you want to use Nick Yee's notorious article comparing Everquest to a Skinner Box as a jumping off point, you could also illustrate how Everquest differed from modern MMOs in several critical ways.

Alternatively, you can accept that you've assumed an indefensible and hyperbolic position as regards the genre, and either revise your argument or just shrug and carry on as if we never spoke. Whatever you feel is the best or most entertaining use of your time is fine by me.

 

[Kyrdra]

The only upcoming MMOs I have any sort of faith in are Star Citizen and World of Darkness.

I hope you are a patient man, my friend, because the World of Darkness MMO is looking at a 2015 launch date. Even then, I'm very skeptical, I'm thinking at best it will be ready for closed beta by then.

And even if it is ready by then it is CCP. They will totally fail with what they wanted and over the next years after that the game will get steadily better and become then finally good

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I can do all of this, no problem.

But here's a thing: it seems to me that, no matter what I will write, you're never going to say "my gosh, you're right! I never understood how my own opinion was wrong until you proved your point with these valid arguments!".... because no one has ever said that in an internet forum ever.

So, I can do all of that. But should I? Are you genuinely going to listen to me, and then I will listen to your argument in defense of mmorpg... or are you just going to blindly ignore my points, like people always do when they don't want to accept a point of view (try to put an atheist chatting with a believer)? Because I don't want to waste my time.

P.S.

Your avatar is cute.

Oh please do. I'm actually interested to see what you come up with. Whether or not I remain unconvinced will depend on how convincing you are.

Yeah it's adorable, isn't it? It's also not a guppy, but OH WELL. I like to think that its cheerful countenance makes my snarky posts exponentially more irritating. =P

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Both slot machines and mmorpg just require you do repeat a single, simple action over and over and over until you obtain a reward. The idea that you're moving towards a reward without stressing your mind or body is what makes slot machines compelling.

See, I was hoping you'd attempt to do this without reverting to reductionism. When you play a slot machine, you pull a lever, and hope for three symbols to match up. When you play an MMO, you are navigating a multitude of different systems. You're exploring, you're engaging in combat, you're analyzing gear setups and ability layouts, you're interacting with other human beings and occasionally managing social dynamics, etc, etc, etc, etc. Even reducing the most common activity...combat...to "I pull the lever" is reductionist, because even the simplest combat in an MMO is significantly more detailed than that, and the more complex ones actually involve no small amount of strategizing...either before or during combat...and more recent ones add in a lot of situational awareness and movement as well.

They're not remotely comparable to slot machines. Where that comparison was once valid was the comparison of EQ's loot/skill-up payoffs to the randomness of the slot machine pull, since they occurred at random intervals and the numbers were all "under the hood", so to speak. This is no longer the case with modern MMOs, or at least not anywhere near to the same extent.

I daresay that yes, there is indeed zero brain activity required

If there was zero brain activity you would be dead. As one of my original criticisms of your position was that it was hyperbolic, you might consider revising this.

Click the enemy to attack. Click the other button to cast a spell. Click button 1 again. Now button 2. You just keep clicking the buttons, without any real risk of losing (getting killed is very unlikely in most mmorpg, and if you do die, you don't really lose any progress).

This is most certainly untrue of a great many MMOs. While some have involved very simple/easy combat wherein success is almost a mathematical certainty in some encounters, the vast majority involve scaling difficulty and there is most definitely a risk of dying/losing progress. And the original "Skinner Box" comparable, Everquest, was blindingly difficult and dying could lose you a week of progress. I often castigate modern MMOs for their relative lack of difficulty compared to older offerings, and I'm an above-average player (though by no means pro), and even I die from time to time. I died 6 times the other day in an hour. Mind you, that game is still in beta and needs tuning.

Mmorpg have zero stress

That's news to me. I've seen many a player have borderline nervous breakdowns over MMO stress. If not achiever stress, then social stress.

and zero effort...

Also news to me. The skill cap on these games may not be DOTA/SC high, but it's most certainly higher than most players can achieve.

...because the brain never gets tired since it doesn't need to focus on dodging...

Buh? Even the now antiquated WoW involves copious dodging and situational awareness, and newer games have ACTUAL DODGE MECHANICS.

The reason they can be accomplished by bots is precisely because you just need to keep pressing a few buttons. No other videogame can be accomplished by a bot like that.

Some very basic functions can be replicated by bots. The vast majority of the experience is often never "accomplished" by the players, let alone bots, as they are games that are often functionally without an end state.

Keep in mind, yes, all videogames just require you to keep pressing a few buttons.

Yes, they do. Which is why I keep reminding you that attempting to describe the ENTIRE EXPERIENCE in those terms is reductionist. To an absurd degree, really. MMOs are actually amongst the most mechanically complex games on the market.

 

[Tuesday Night Fever]

No, no. That describes mmorpg, and mmorpg ALONE.

Here's the deal: other videogames (say, an rpg like Dragon Age: Origins or the old school Baldur's Gate) still require you to point and click constantly. But if you just point and click and don't even think about what you're doing, you're dead in five seconds.

Mmorpg instead do not require any brain activity at all. Only mmorpg are like that, and intentionally so, because mmorpg actually mimick the principle of slot machines and pachinko.

So: nearly every videogame requires you do to the same thing over and over. But only mmorpg do not require any brain activity to it, and can be accomplished by bots.

I'm playing Skyrim right now, on Legendary no less, and I can point and click constantly without thinking about what I'm doing and still come out on top regularly (Heavy Armor/Two-Hand Weapons). It's even more hilariously brainless if you're playing a Conjurer with access to Atronachs and Dremora Lords that do literally all of the fighting for you while you're free to hide in a corner or sneak around looting stuff.

I've played most of the big MMORPGs at one time or another (except the original Guild Wars), and to be a competent player the ability rotations and priority systems are usually more complex than anything found in Skyrim, or Fallout, or Call of Duty, or Dragon Age: Origins, or what have you.

If you're content with being an atrocious player and a complete waste of space in any party, then yes, brain activity requirement for MMORPGs is pretty low. To actually be successful, and not mooch off other players' success then they're pretty much on-par with any other game out there.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

But you love mmorpg.

No, I like MMORPGs. I love one or two. I dislike several. Much like most gamers do with most genres.

As for the rest of it...uh...okay then.

 

[Tuesday Night Fever]

You know, you should really read this article:

http://www.cracked.com/blog/understanding-the-world-of-warcraft-using-super-mario-brothers/

You'll benefit from it.

And it'll save me the time of writing you a longer reply.

Already read the article back when it was first posted. My point remains. You absolutely can play them brainlessly, and you absolutely can get loot doing that, but it will always be at the detriment to others. Others that don't play mindlessly.

And my point also remains that other games are just as brainless that aren't MMORPGs. Hell, many of them also have the same Skinner Box theories in them. The leveling up system in any modern Call of Duty, Medal of Honor, etc. multiplayer shooter for instance.

To actually be good at MMORPGs does require a level of skill competence that most other games actually don't possess (usually). That's not a dig at other games, they're just different. Differences aren't inherently bad.

I honestly find it odd that you held up Champions Online as an example of a paragon within the genre. I played CO, and was even part of the closed Beta back in the day. That game is, in my opinion, one of the worst examples, honestly. The game had some of the most brainless combat I've seen yet. My first character didn't even need to "click click click click" to success. All I had to do was click the Minigun ability (ranged, low-damage-per-hit extremely fast firing, cylindrical AoE) and hold the button down. With one button press everything in front of me would just melt away with zero effort. Pair it with the Regeneration passive defensive ability and I didn't even need to worry about defending myself. From the moment I unlocked those two abilities, I never needed to do anything complex ever again. As for the rest of the game, it's all pretty standard MMO affair. Create your character (pretty much the exact same system as City of Heroes but with fewer options and significantly more incompatabilities between various outfit pieces, so nothing new there), go out into a contained training area (see: most games), move on to an open world (see: pretty much every MMORPG), repeatedly do the same sort of kill X number of Y mob quest that every other MMORPG has, gain levels and slightly bigger numbers.

 

[Nielas]

If you're content with being an atrocious player and a complete waste of space in any party, then yes, brain activity requirement for MMORPGs is pretty low. To actually be successful, and not mooch off other players' success then they're pretty much on-par with any other game out there.

You know, you should really read this article:

http://www.cracked.com/blog/understanding-the-world-of-warcraft-using-super-mario-brothers/

You'll benefit from it.

And it'll save me the time of writing you a longer reply.

Well, Super Mario is pretty brainless game. You press the forward button and then every so often you press the jump button. Do it enough and in the right order and you win.

 

[gamernerdtg2]

It's a Skinner Box. The game doles out little tasks and you get little rewards for accomplishing them. It's like a slow but steady drip in the pleasure center of your brain. The only way off is to recognize what's happening and either decide that you're okay with this, or to play games that reward you in other ways.

Well said.

I think mmorpg are bad games. They do have the potential to be GREAT games.... but 99,9% of them, if not 100% of them, are no more a videogame than a slot machine is.

Here's a big world to explore, full of armours to craft, enemies to fight, and characters of your own to create!!!! .......Ok, now please keep repeating the attack button. Repeat the attack button again. Again. Again. Again. Click click click click click clickclickclickclickclickclick

Yes I agree about the potential to be good games. What I don't understand is how this formula has persisted into 2014 with very little in the way of improvement.

I'm not into the FF universe, but games like Wow are ones that I understand. If the numbers that you've put out are true, then more thought needs to be put into these games. Perhaps it's more about the "Online" part than the gameplay part of the equation. Even though the arcades are dead and buried, people still like to connect through gaming, and the internet does that in grand fashion. I wish more MMORPGs were like Vindictus in terms of the gameplay.
LOL "click click click" is not exactly my style, but I won't lie - I've done it.


It is amazing how such a formula that, when broken down, is so boring on paper yet works keeps people playing. I mean last time I checked there are 7 million+ subscribed to WoW alone. Combine that with the enormous numbers of other games such FFXIV and GW2 and the likes of Free to Play games and you have a ridiculous amount of people hooked on this formula. It is astounding when you put even a mere 5 minutes thinking about it especially from such a huge point of view.

 

[Tassit]

There's a couple MMO's I played for their story, WoW for example was originally about lore and story but.. It's since gravitated towards the loot pinata aspect, sadly. Guild Wars I played to max level on a couple races, their personal storylines were fairly decent. I played every class story in SWTOR (which let me tell you what, when you grind through the rackghoul quests for the 3rd time it makes you want to drop kick your computer). Also and more recently, Final Fantasy 14's storyline (albeit slightly wonky) is fairly decent, the old man training montage you do as the Pugilist made me laugh.

I see a couple mentions about Secret World, never tried it but if the story is good I just might.

 

[raichu845]

I feel like there are way more valid complaints to be made about MMORPGs than having to repeatedly attack stuff. Like the constant buff/nerf cycles that make it so that the character you love can be ungodly powerful one day and absolute garbage the next. Like the constant balance changes made for PVE and PVP that aren't exclusive, forcing PvP players to deal with changes that didn't have any impact on them (and the same for PvE players in the opposite situation). Like constantly being nickel-and-dimed by either monthly subscription fees or ridiculous micro-transactions. Like the constant issues they have with various internet service providers and college IT departments that restrict you from being able to play (which you won't get a refund for if playing a subscription-based game). Like the constant threat of hackers and identity theft if you're not constantly vigilant with security. Like the need for a fairly high-end PC to be able to smoothly run many MMORPGS, even if they came out years ago using tech even older than that.

The genre is a mess, but constant clicking of an attack button is definitely nothing unique to it.[/quote]

These are all valid points, however most of them tend to apply for a lot of games, especially MOBA games. I notice this while watching League of Legends players (especially during their discussions). What you just described there is mostly every genre. Now I am not bashing on you because they're still pretty viable points on MMORPG's yet at the same time not exclusive to them

 

[Torque2100]

I have never really liked MMOs. I played WoW for a while but I only got to level 45 or so because I just didn't enjoy it. The only reason I played was because all of my friends got hooked on WoW and I had to play it in order to spend any time with them. I guess feeling like a game is holding my friends hostage colored my perception of the genre.

For me, the worst part about the MMORPG experience is the WoW feel. How every dungeon is instanced, areas are clearly delineated based on level, the boss you just killed respawns 10 minutes later and there's no real risk to anything you do. If you get killed, no problem you can just respawn at your corpse or back in the graveyard in a perfectly safe city. Playing WoW or any MMORPG that fits into the WoW mold (read, basically all of them) doesn't feel like I'm going on an epic fantasy adventure, it feels like a Theme Park. The dungeons and bosses are just rides and the Loot drops are like giant dubious prizes handed out by whiskey-smelling carnies which are, of course, obsolete the moment you get them.

Honestly, of all the games I have tried the only MMOs that really seemed to break the mold of the Theme Park mentality are EVE Online, oldschool Ultima Online before Trammel ruined everything and Planetside. Oldschool Ultima, from what I have read about it, was pretty much perfect. It was a wide open world where you could go anywhere and do just about anything. Yes there were griefers and enemies could loot your dead body, but items weren't nearly as hard to get as they are in WoW model games. What you lost could be replaced fairly easily.

I liked EVE for a lot of the same reasons. Unfortunately, when I played it the game had been ruined by skyrocketing inflation in the in-game economy. The ISK was basically worthless and buying the most basic items cost billions of ISK. This was due to the double whammy of moving everyone onto the same server and ISK Farmers. I hear CCP have gotten better about cracking down on ISK farming but I really don't see how they can solve the Inflation problem now, so it will just make the game unwinnable unless you have an established friend who can gift you a couple of billion ISK.

Planetside was fun because of the huge battles and the way it truly encouraged teamwork. Unfortunately, Planetside 2 was ruined by a freaking DELUGE of hackers, the complete inability of the Devs to do anything about said hackers and a truly obnoxious Microtransaction pricing scheme (Want a new gun? 30 BUCKS!).

I guess a recurring theme for me is that MMOs are consistently ruined by the playerbase. Either directly by hacking or cheating or exploiting the game to farm more than their intended share of in game currency, thus causing inflation, or by the Developers attempting to preempt such actions and taking away freedom from the rest of us.

 

[nogitsune]

I tend to role play in MMOs as I always find the creation and interaction of characters more interesting then the game itself. City of Heroes, the game that got me into MMOs and still stands as the best one I've played, had fantastic story as well as millions of character options (and never truly penalised a 'bad build') and encouraged multiple characters. I ended up with about 57 characters when the game was shut down, about 15 of which were at the max level of 50 (though I only had 1 character who had all the end game 'Incarnate' powers and levels as grinding for them more then once doesn't appeal) and I would have happily kept playing it if it had stayed.

For those of you who never played, City of Heroes (and Villains) did its best to break the usual skinner box mold, and was a role playing dream come true with character customization and even mission/enemy customization. The game had a lot of fantastic ideas, like level scaling both up and down, robust character creation/customization, custom missions players could make, instancing, power based 'gear' and just generally being all around *fun* to play. But the notable thing that was great about this game? It was about the players, through and through. To this day, COH had some of the largest degree of player agency and chacter ownership I've ever seen in an MMO, outside of some of the notable sandbox ones like EVE. Compare that to your typical themepark ride MMO where you are just yet another Tauran Shaman that looks the same as the other ones. Yes, I'm spoiled rotten by COH's character creator, sue me.

Ugh I miss that game so much now. Was shut down suddenly, and for no good reason or explaination ever given. Even keeping it on life support with Ned the Janitor looking after the server cluster and some customer service staff would have been better than totally killing it off the way NC Soft did. I guess no good deed goes unpunished, as the expression goes. It was very much the MMO equivalent of the end of Cheers, everyone left then the lights turn out. Here's hoping that City of Titans becomes a thing.

I definitely agree with you there and really CoH is probably my favorite sandbox MMO. I really wish more people would hold it up as one instead of Eve and UO all the time. A sandbox MMO doesn't have to have the wild west PVP where anyone can kill you and take your stuff. There's more to the sandbox than throwing sand in the other kid's face and running off with his toys. I'm not saying that there's no place for Eve like games, there clearly is by it's popularity but I there should be room for PVE sandboxes too and really it's sad that we lost the last great one, Star Wars Galaxies was the other that
I know of and no one can play that either..

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I definitely agree with you there and really CoH is probably my favorite sandbox MMO. I really wish more people would hold it up as one instead of Eve and UO all the time. A sandbox MMO doesn't have to have the wild west PVP where anyone can kill you and take your stuff. There's more to the sandbox than throwing sand in the other kid's face and running off with his toys. I'm not saying that there's no place for Eve like games, there clearly is by it's popularity but I there should be room for PVE sandboxes too and really it's sad that we lost the last great one, Star Wars Galaxies was the other that I know of and no one can play that either..

City of Heroes was not a sandbox MMO. It was a content light theme park. It was fun to play and oozed personality, but that doesn't change what it was. EVE, SWG and UO constantly get name checked as *the* sandbox MMOs because they're really about it (at least amongst AAA offerings). Ultima Online is still arguably the most ambitious MMO ever made. Sure, all of its systems were fundamentally broken and/or under-designed, but they sure reached for the stars on that one. Then Everquest hit big and WoW aped its formula, made it more accessible, and became a genre smashing phenomenon. And ever since then it's been theme parks, theme parks and more theme parks, all the way out to the horizon.

 

[mezorin]

COH is definately not quite a sandbox in the true sense of the word (Like Libertarian Quest Online, aka EVE) but at the same time how many theme parks would let you create your own missions, customize your characters super heavily, and play the game how you felt like playing it? COH was 'technically' a theme park MMO, but with an emphasis on player ownership, freedom, and creativity. It was also one of the first MMOs I am aware of to allow for creation of your own story arcs/missions in an online MMORPG setting. Its a crying shame it went down the way it did too, I would rather see MMOs try and emulate the player agency COH did than try to be yet another WOW clone. Even Cryptic themselves (the original makers of COH then splintered off) are just trying to do the copy pasta generic fantasy route these days with Neverwinter Online.

 

[Flutterguy]

I like my competitive games to have fairly high learning curves and 'reward' my playing. So MMOs are perfect. Haven't played any in about a year now though, always eats up too much time and I can spend years with guildies or friends only for them to disappear one day.

I am looking forward to Elder Scrolls Online though. It will be the second time I buy a game at launch day, last time was Crash Team Racing on psx.

 

[raichu845]

I like my competitive games to have fairly high learning curves and 'reward' my playing. So MMOs are perfect. Haven't played any in about a year now though, always eats up too much time and I can spend years with guildies or friends only for them to disappear one day.

I am looking forward to Elder Scrolls Online though. It will be the second time I buy a game at launch day, last time was Crash Team Racing on psx.

First of all I want to say, good buy on the CTR (favorite racing game I have ever played). Second of all I am not trying to disprove you by any way, I agree with you on rewarding you but I am curious on the high learning curves. The reason I ask about it is because aren't MMOs designed so that the grind to max level covers the learning of the character? Or maybe you are talking about certain raid/dungeon bosses and ways around them?