The Defending Joe Biden Mega-Thread

Agema

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Relative to the USA in 2019, absolutely not.
Sure, sure. This claim is a lot like 10-15 years ago when climate change deniers said there had been no increase in global surface temperature for a decade. It was of course just a trick involving selective data picking.

There are numerous measures of whether people felt happy or that things were going well across years. Even how much they like their government is often a reasonable proxy. There are no particular indications that Americans felt content in 2019, although I could accept that on average they are less content now.

Although that said, the thrust of my argument is that the public can have a poor idea how things are really going anyway.
 

Agema

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People are dramatically smarter than you think.
Surveys repeatedly show that the public have a very poor grasp of facts overall, including key national indicators. They are likely to be heavily inaccurate on virtually all topics that they care about: immigration, economy, crime, etc. and this is well recognised. For instance, you support a party where ~70% of its voters believe Biden's win was illlegitimate, around half of whom even think there is hard evidence it was illegal.

Even the smartest people are likely to make serious errors if they base their decisions on false and inaccurate data.
 

tstorm823

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Surveys repeatedly show that the public have a very poor grasp of facts overall, including key national indicators. They are likely to be heavily inaccurate on virtually all topics that they care about: immigration, economy, crime, etc. and this is well recognised. For instance, you support a party where ~70% of its voters believe Biden's win was illlegitimate, around half of whom even think there is hard evidence it was illegal.

Even the smartest people are likely to make serious errors if they base their decisions on false and inaccurate data.
The election in which Biden won Pennsylvania was in violation of our state constitution. It's more surprising that half of Republicans don't see that it was illegal.

I haven't given this list in a while, let's do it again:
1) Absentee voting is established in the state's constitution for "qualified electors who may, on the occurrence of any election, be absent from the municipality of their residence, because their duties, occupation or business require them to be elsewhere or who, on the occurrence of any election, are unable to attend at their proper polling places because of illness or physical disability or who will not attend a polling place because of the observance of a religious holiday or who cannot vote because of election day duties, in the case of a county employee". The Supreme Court of PA (which is an elected position and they all have party affiliations) decided on a party line vote that "We find no restriction in our Constitution on the General Assembly’s ability to create universal mail-in voting." Two major problems with that decision: first, in order to reach that conclusion, they have to read that section as an unnecessary list of potential reasons to absentee vote which requires no reason; second, the General Assembly didn't create universal mail-in voting. The year before, they had passed election reforms that broadened the scope and eased restrictions on mail-in voting, but that law still required applicants to "POSSESS QUALIFICATIONS OF AN ABSENTEE ELECTOR" (caps from the bill itself in all caps, not meant for emphasis). The governor and secretary of state turned it into universal mail-in voting, and the Supreme Court decided this was in the spirit of the law that was passed, and could have been passed if they wanted to.

2) By law, absentee ballots in PA can legally be requested and submitted at the county elections office, either by mail or in person. There is no provision in any law to allow for dropboxes or "satellite election offices". The Democratic run executive branch, not the legislature, decided these should be a thing in 2020 and then created them in only major Democratic strongholds. Pennsylvania in 2020, by the actions of the governor and secretary of state, had de facto early voting and ballot dropboxes for only blue counties. Republicans sought to have representatives present at these locations, to be assured that no fraud was being committed (as every Party is legally entitled to at polling places on election day) and they were kicked off the property. They made early voting in only places that are >2/3rds Democrat and then only let Democratic campaign representatives see what they were doing there.

3) Despite the efforts above all being justified by covid, when the State was petitioned to assist elderly voters, whom the Secretary of Health was still telling to not leave their homes, the only response was that they'll figure out mail in voting. Apparently drop boxes are necessary to keep people safe from a pandemic on the streets of Philadelphia, but doing the same for a retirement community (who are way more at risk of dying but are demographically likely Republican voters) is just unreasonable, we can't help those people vote. The Secretary of Health making these decisions is now the US Secretary of Health, rewarded for the blatant partisanship.

4) The Democrats removed the Green Party from the ballot so that they wouldn't take votes away from Biden. The state accepted their petition to be on the ballot, then only after the deadline to submit, Democrats discovered (they run the office, they knew the whole time, they didn't tell the Green Party until it was too late on purpose) that a form that required hard-copy signatures was faxed in. When this went to court, the judge essentially said "were you told you were missing this form? No? Do you still have the physical signatures? Yes? Give them here, you're on the ballot." So the Democratic Party of Pennsylvania appealed to the Supreme Court of Pennsylvania who decided (again on strict party lines) to kick them off the ballot.

None of this is wild conspiracies, it was all done out in the open beforehand. If you remember on election night, you were worried PA was going to Trump, and I assured you that it wouldn't last the night, they hadn't counted the early votes in Philadelphia yet. We knew here in advance of the election that Democrats at the state level were abusing their positions to tilt the scales in their favor at every opportunity, legal or otherwise. 1000% rigged.
 

Agema

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The election in which Biden won Pennsylvania was in violation of our state constitution. It's more surprising that half of Republicans don't see that it was illegal.
🙄

This boils down to the "scorched earth" defence of saying that there are so many problems with US elections that few to none of them are genuine. If you want to go that way then fine, but at least make sure everyone knows the context that you're saying no elections are legitimate.
 

The Rogue Wolf

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This boils down to the "scorched earth" defence of saying that there are so many problems with US elections that few to none of them are genuine. If you want to go that way then fine, but at least make sure everyone knows the context that you're saying no elections are legitimate.
You forget the Republican mindset: An election is only legitimate if a Republican wins.
 

tstorm823

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You sure don't seem to like it when voting is made easier or more accessible to the citizens.
If Republicans changed the rules of how voting could occur, but implemented those changes in only rural, majority-white areas, you would see the issue. You don't get to say "we're just making voting more accessible" if you only do it for people who vote for you.
If you want to go that way then fine, but at least make sure everyone knows the context that you're saying no elections are legitimate.
That was the only election in my lifetime that has ever gone like that, it was not business as usual. That's not normal.
 

dreng3

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If Republicans changed the rules of how voting could occur, but implemented those changes in only rural, majority-white areas, you would see the issue. You don't get to say "we're just making voting more accessible" if you only do it for people who vote for you.
Which is worse, democrats making it easier to vote for their party or republicans making it harder to vote for the other party? Hell, republicans could make mail-in ballots available in every single republican majority state and I think most people on this site would be fine with it. However, instead of making voting easier republicans are pushing for more difficult voter-registration, scrubbing of voter-rolls and gerrymandering based on race.
 
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tstorm823

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Which is worse, democrats making it easier to vote for their party or republicans making it harder to vote for the other party? Hell, republicans could make mail-in ballots available in every single republican majority state and I think most people on this site would be fine with it. However, instead of making voting easier republicans are pushing for more difficult voter-registration, scrubbing of voter-rolls and gerrymandering based on race.
Democrats racially gerrymander more than Republicans, and have actually gotten in trouble for breaking apart majority minority areas to try and spread out their safe voters to claim more districts.
Scrubbing voter rolls is necessary and federally required, it is done by every state regardless of controlling party.
There is a proper amount of "difficult" for voter registration, in that people need to be able to only register themselves, only in one district, and only if they are eligible to vote.

And I always love the wild inconsistency on this topic. Democrats push for automatic voter registration when getting a driver's license or other state id, but then call it racist to ask for those same ids when voting. We hear people always saying election day should be a holiday and higher turnout is bad for Republicans, but then important state elections get held in off years when there is no turnout to the seeming benefit of Democrats. Gerrymandering is an evil Republican tactic if we just ignore Chicago and Baltimore.
 

Phoenixmgs

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Because the democratic mechanism can make sure that the opinions of other people have a minimal impact on you personally and because alternative types of rulership can legitimize actions that mean that the people with awful opinions have their will enforced.
But if you hate what the majority voted for and said awful opinions become enforced, how are you a fan of democracy?
 

Hades

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But if you hate what the majority voted for and said awful opinions become enforced, how are you a fan of democracy?
a Republican victory typically depends on the majority opinion being swept away due the Republicans scoring marginally better in a few random locations though. Said awful opinions being the minority opinion but getting enforced anyway.

Because the Founding Fathers were morons.
 

Phoenixmgs

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a Republican victory typically depends on the majority opinion being swept away due the Republicans scoring marginally better in a few random locations though. Said awful opinions being the minority opinion but getting enforced anyway.

Because the Founding Fathers were morons.
The original message I was replying to also talked about Europe and I'm thinking Europe doesn't have the same system as the US. The electoral college isn't ideal but it's not like a small minority would cause any candidate to win. Biden won a bigger share of electoral votes than his share in just total votes.
 

Bedinsis

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But if you hate what the majority voted for and said awful opinions become enforced, how are you a fan of democracy?
I feel I already have answered this question, but if you want another answer:

Because democracy is ultimately a form of governance founded on the assumption that every person's opinion is worthy of consideration. And if it turns out the average person voted in a way you consider awful then a few years under their opinion being enforced should reveal if that was the case or not. If it turns out it was in general awful then come next election you have backing for your opinion and candidates are more likely to not campaign on those awful policies. If you were wrong, you've had chance to learn and reconsider. If there is ambiguity of the outcome, there can still be debate. Note that result: the discussion is an actual discussion instead of an elite making the decisions for us, where everyone's opinion is being forced to be considered, ideally because politicians think of us, cynically because they would otherwise risk their job.

And in the spirit of cynicism, let me quote Winston Churchill:

"No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time."
 

Seanchaidh

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The original message I was replying to also talked about Europe and I'm thinking Europe doesn't have the same system as the US. The electoral college isn't ideal but it's not like a small minority would cause any candidate to win. Biden won a bigger share of electoral votes than his share in just total votes.
There are plentiful reasons to believe that the USA and countries in Europe are not really democratic. Many specific that can be summarized into a few general:

The people do not rule to the extant that the people are not the ones choosing the options that they formally decide between.
The people do not rule to the extent that the people are successfully manipulated by sources of information that they do not control.
The people do not rule to the extant that their contrary views and opinions are ignored by the formal and informal processes that lead to policy.

Each of these three tend to cause and reinforce more of themselves and the others and just one is enough to make a system not democratic. This is something easy to intuitively grasp when the subject is something banal like 'foreign interference in our elections!!1!1'. But the call is coming from inside the house; if the standard to be judged by is democracy, there is domestic interference in the entire political process, even the parts we typically don't recognize as political.
 

tippy2k2

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I don't know if this is enough to get me to vote for Kamala, but it is easily the best argument for her.
I can't imagine there is a single Democrat that could be considered for president that I would vote for so at least if this were to happen, it would be the funniest possible thing. Which, like you, would make me strongly consider...*sigh*...voting for Harris.
 

Hades

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Its pretty crazy how the US is sleepwalking to dictatorship. In 2016 people were at least assuming it wouldn't be so bad or even willing to give this hip new fascism thing...um I mean alt right thing a chance. But these days there's no excitement of Trump outside his cult. Everyone saw what he was. They now now Trump is neither capable or willing to govern the US properly, they know he's out to dismantle US democracy and they know he already did a coup to overthrow the state.

And their reaction is to just....let it happen without resistance. Because a candidate being barely older than Trump is the bigger issue...apparently.
 
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Eacaraxe

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And I always love the wild inconsistency on this topic. Democrats push for automatic voter registration when getting a driver's license or other state id, but then call it racist to ask for those same ids when voting.
The issue with it when voter ID laws were being pushed, was the Republicans pushing them were also shutting down BMV's in predominantly black and latino and poor areas, making acquisition of state-issued identification prohibitively difficult and time-consuming, allowing non-state-issued identification to substitute but along heavily partisan lines (such as...whichever state it was that allowed non-photo AARP membership cards to count, but not photo student ID's), and passing arcane provisionary ballot laws which gave election officials free range to simply not count them.

You'll also notice Democrats shut up real fuckin' fast about voter ID law when it benefitted Hillary against Bernie, and stayed quiet since. Well, other than flash-in-the-pan race-baiting in swing states with majority-urban populations (Georgia, basically).

Because the Founding Fathers were morons.
Three-fifths moron to be precise.
 
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Phoenixmgs

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I feel I already have answered this question, but if you want another answer:

Because democracy is ultimately a form of governance founded on the assumption that every person's opinion is worthy of consideration. And if it turns out the average person voted in a way you consider awful then a few years under their opinion being enforced should reveal if that was the case or not. If it turns out it was in general awful then come next election you have backing for your opinion and candidates are more likely to not campaign on those awful policies. If you were wrong, you've had chance to learn and reconsider. If there is ambiguity of the outcome, there can still be debate. Note that result: the discussion is an actual discussion instead of an elite making the decisions for us, where everyone's opinion is being forced to be considered, ideally because politicians think of us, cynically because they would otherwise risk their job.

And in the spirit of cynicism, let me quote Winston Churchill:

"No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time."
But since when has the majority voted for someone/something that made the country so horrible to live in that you get so mad about it? Over time, things have gotten better (not at the speed you would like obviously), not worse. If things have legit gotten horrible because of how people voted, then it's an example of democracy just not working.

There are plentiful reasons to believe that the USA and countries in Europe are not really democratic. Many specific that can be summarized into a few general:

The people do not rule to the extant that the people are not the ones choosing the options that they formally decide between.
The people do not rule to the extent that the people are successfully manipulated by sources of information that they do not control.
The people do not rule to the extant that their contrary views and opinions are ignored by the formal and informal processes that lead to policy.

Each of these three tend to cause and reinforce more of themselves and the others and just one is enough to make a system not democratic. This is something easy to intuitively grasp when the subject is something banal like 'foreign interference in our elections!!1!1'. But the call is coming from inside the house; if the standard to be judged by is democracy, there is domestic interference in the entire political process, even the parts we typically don't recognize as political.
I realize we aren't technically democracies in that regard. Democracy is used as short-hand for our system like how the dems say this election is to "save democracy" or the Washington Post tagline "democracy dies in darkness".