The Downfall of Japanese Games?

[TerraMGP]

Japan's obsession with arcades is negated by their complete and utter disregard with online play. Meanwhile, South Korea is too focused on certain games and genres to be anywhere considered a mecca for video games. Mecca for MMOs? Sure. Mecca for video games? Certainly not. South Korea is going to have to get away from the whole "GOOD GAMEPLAY = THOUSANDS OF HOURS OF BORING GRINDING" mentality if they want to be taken seriously with video game development.

USA is the mecca once again due to the high quality gameplay and technology that is produced over here for video games. Not to mention, Japan doesn't have anything on the USA or Europe when it comes to indie development.

I'm sorry but the high quality technology part made me laugh. I'm sorry but console wise all the US produces are low rent gaming PCs that explode.

Then again I am bias, I don't see the point in multiplayer games. If I AM going to play a game with someone else I am going to drive to their house. Even then though the US has really only done a passable job and is barely pulling away from the shooter mentality for the most part. Bathesda is good, and Bioware works when its not making bad Starwars D20 campaigns with overpowered sith lords. It really gives me the feeling of sitting at the gaming table with 'that GM'. You know the one I'm talking about.

But while I will give some kudos for Mirrors edge and its ilk for the most part I don't see too much to justify calling us the mecca. We just suck less than we did a few years ago.

 

[EzraPound]

Well, we can look at the major franchises...

- Mario - going strong
- Zelda - adequate, but has become increasingly mundane post-OoT
- Metroid - still fine, but the newness of the Metroid Prime series is wearing thin
- Sonic - dead albeit for a few half-decent handheld releases
- Mega Man - it was a long slide to mediocrity after Mega Man 3
- Final Fantasy - 'sound', but is trying game critics' patience lately
- Dragon Quest - w0t w0t, DQVIII was fine and atleast the series isn't oversaturated
- Resident Evil - had a strange resurrection after RE4; the only seminal one since RE2
- Street Fighter - SFA3 and SF3 were fine, I guess, but SF2 could make me a sandwich
- Donkey Kong - it was always less than brilliant after Miyamoto, and nothing new looms
- Tekken - hasn't changed since, like, T1 and T3 was the height of the series
- Kirby - y0 kirbz is mediocre now

I'm not going to be thorough right now but I think the truth is that while alot of Japanese developers are still making good games, they seemed to have missed the innovation train in the 21st century.

 

[mark_n_b]

TL/DR: Don't post. If you're too lazy to read my opinion, I don't wanna read yours either.

What on earth is that?

As for "the fall of Japanese developers" no such fall has happened. You are forgetting a couple vital points:

1. There are way more North American developers making games than there were in the eighties.
2. If you were still eight years old (or whatever) you'd probably prefer Nintendo in all their soccer mom pandering glory.

The end result is that there are more culturally specific games to market to North American audiences that publishers are willing to invest in over localizing some potentially risky Japanese titles (localization is not really a cheap process).

And, honestly, you've been around the forums, you know that there is more than one "The Japanese are so awesome, why can't I be Japanese? Who would ever waste their time on Fallout 3... The Japanese didn't make it." So... yeah... past their prime? No. Japanese game developers are the center of the billion dollar industry that is Japanese games.

 

[GloatingSwine]

This example is from an anime, not a game, but it's still a good example of Japanese writers idea of character development: Inuyasha. In the anime, Inuyasha and Kagome spend 168 episodes together and neither of them can buck up and say "I love you" to the other. In the manga it apparently does happen, but WAY later.

That would be a good example if you weren't citing something that happens for a completely different reason.

The reason that Rumiko Takahashi's characters never actually admit their feelings is that it would effectively end the series, because whatever else is going on she's primarily a writer of romantic comedies, and the publishers aren't going to let that happen whilst it's still profitable, so it gets dragged out effectively indefinitely until the audience loses interest in the series and only then does it all get wrapped up.

This is why only one of her long runners has a definitive ending, Maison Ikkoku. Urusei Yatsura, Ranma 1/2, and Inu Yasha just kind of peter out and stop, rather than actually ending with any definite strength. (Though UY never had much of a continuity to begin with, as it was primarily gag based).

The character never develop, they don't grow. They gain levels and get stronger, but storyline wise, they're just as emotionally stunted at the end of the game as they are at the beginning.

It's funny you cited Squall in your rant and then tried to claim this. At the start of the game Squall is pretty much a poster child for awkward withdrawn sociopaths, whereas at the end he's got at least a few friends and a fairly good chance of getting a shag.

Certainly not. South Korea is going to have to get away from the whole "GOOD GAMEPLAY = THOUSANDS OF HOURS OF BORING GRINDING" mentality if they want to be taken seriously with video game development.

Because no western developer would ever get eleven million subscribers on for thousands of hours to grind for purple drops, and treat it all as deadly Serious Business, right?

Right?

Not to mention, Japan doesn't have anything on the USA or Europe when it comes to indie development.

It does, you just don't see it because it doesn't get translated. Touhou, Higurashi no Naku Koro ni, etc. There's plenty of indie game development in Japan, but it stays there, because it's expensive and thus not profitable to translate.

 

[Joeshie]

I'm sorry but the high quality technology part made me laugh. I'm sorry but console wise all the US produces are low rent gaming PCs that explode.

It not just talking about physical technology, but actually programming as well. In terms of physics, graphics engines, and the whole lot, Japan has fallen behind America in terms of development. Besides, who do you think was the primary developer behind the Cell processor? Oh wait, that's right, the American company, IBM. You could of course point to the shoddy development of the 360, but it's not as if Sony and Nintendo haven't also made shoddy video game accessories and consoles in the past either.

This isn't something that I have just made up either: prominent developers, such as Square-Enix [http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3170822], Hideo Kojima [http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3170630], and Konami [http://www.kotaku.com.au/games/2007/12/japanese_game_developers_in_tr.html] have all noticed the trend of Japan falling behind America.

Likewise, it really doesn't matter if you personally like online multiplayer or not. The large majority of gamers do like online multiplayer and this aspect of gaming can't simply be ignored just because you don't like it.

 

[TerraMGP]

I'm sorry but the high quality technology part made me laugh. I'm sorry but console wise all the US produces are low rent gaming PCs that explode.

It not just talking about physical technology, but actually programming as well. In terms of physics, graphics engines, and the whole lot, Japan has fallen behind America in terms of development. Besides, who do you think was the primary developer behind the Cell processor? Oh wait, that's right, the American company, IBM.

This isn't something that I have just made up either: prominent developers, such as Square-Enix [http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3170822], Hideo Kojima [http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3170630], and Konami [http://www.kotaku.com.au/games/2007/12/japanese_game_developers_in_tr.html] have all noticed the trend of Japan falling behind America.

And? at least the PS3 does not blow up spontaniously. As for things like the graphics development or physics engines did you ever stop to think that they may be part of the problem? That perhaps we are over-extending into what we can do at our maximum effort rather than what we can do for a good price? Yes for some games I will agree a good physics engine is required, however having the most 'cutting edge' graphics and physics seems to be the thing cutting us off from producing the really good games that could be if games did not cost so much to make. Then those people who somehow seem to be image-sensative freak out if a game has even one pixel out of place. Yes we need to advance but like with anything else we should be doing so sustainably rather than just going full boar ad-hock and making it too expensive for any smaller companies to build themselves up without selling their souls to EA.

 

[Joeshie]

And? at least the PS3 does not blow up spontaniously. As for things like the graphics development or physics engines did you ever stop to think that they may be part of the problem? That perhaps we are over-extending into what we can do at our maximum effort rather than what we can do for a good price? Yes for some games I will agree a good physics engine is required, however having the most 'cutting edge' graphics and physics seems to be the thing cutting us off from producing the really good games that could be if games did not cost so much to make. Then those people who somehow seem to be image-sensative freak out if a game has even one pixel out of place. Yes we need to advance but like with anything else we should be doing so sustainably rather than just going full boar ad-hock and making it too expensive for any smaller companies to build themselves up without selling their souls to EA.

Wow, nice job with the strawman argument. The original argument centered around America beating the Japanese in video game technology, not weather this technology was actually necessary.

Nice going on completely failing there, Mr. Weeaboo.

 

[shadow skill]

Nice going on completely failing there, Mr. Weeaboo.

How/why is he a weeaboo?

I don't think he really knows what it means. It's also funny that he brings up straw men when you actually look at the previous responses what Terra is talking about in the last quote block isn't a straw man at all.

 

[geldonyetich]

]And? at least the PS3 does not blow up spontaniously.

Nice going on completely failing there, Mr. Weeaboo.

I have to say, I mind an accusation of completing failing much less when you assign the proper name to the quote.

 

[Gormers1]

Sega has given out some quality titles over the year. The problem may be that they tend to only advertise the shitty ones. Valkyria Chronicles and Yakuza 2 for once was superb games.

But I do agree that very many Japanese developed games have very little innovetion in them. The only interesting Square game in years was for me "the world ends with you". Part of the problem may be that the japs still by games like dynasty warriors 9 etc. Same as every mom in the world apparently buys wii fit. I still like nintendo for some of their games though.

 

[ChromeAlchemist]

Quite franky, Nintendo are the masters of surprise. They already said they were coming out with a new IP yet have not said a word about it. They also said they would make a more original Zelda and I believe that. I feel that the horse is not dead quite yet, as mario galaxy was truly original imho.

I believe they may be the first ones to create a new console (or maybe Microsoft) possibly after 2010 methinks, and after Microsoft come out with their motion control iteration (I won't say ripoff solely for civility purposes). Sony (although milking it for all it is worth) has shown that maintaining two home consoles is possible, so it could very much work.

Square have been pissing me off for some time now. From their lack of Wii support in terms of real titles, to their console exclusivity of Star Ocean, along with their total disregard of the PC.

I know people say that PC gamers do not play RPGs, but there can't be a market unless they make a market (e.g. their force feeding RPGs to 360 owners and their push to get as many of them into the states as possible). I am planning to get a ps3 late this year, and have no intention of getting a 360, so I am praying it is only a timed exclusive.

Also it is true that they pay little to no attention to the rest of their titles. I have been waiting for a chrono break for an eternity, instead we get about five spinoffs of final fantasy 7, If I see another one I think i'm going to cut someone.

I know they said it wouldn't happen, but what reason could they possibly have to not make it? Toriyama is probably sitting around wiping his arse with ¥10000 notes, and feck knows what Sakaguchi and Horii are up to nowadays. The same goes for Secret of mana and their other titles like you said. The just ignore their stellar titles and just churn out average (in comparison) titles for the 360 to create a market.

This is starting to get lengthy, so I won't go into much more detail. Valve are gods. Blizzard are good. Sony are arrogant bastards, case in point the ps3 (but I will probably still get one this year) but neither are past their prime.

Nintendo are not past their prime yet, not in the least and I think this year will prove it. Their franchises practically raise young gamers into loyalists, and I feel that majority of the time they do enough to keep their franchises fresh (minus things like super sluggers). Things like metroid to metroid prime is fresh progression. General advancement from 2D to 3D done well is

Yes you have the Mirror's Edges and the other concepts or works, but you also have the No More Heroes, the Bayonettas, and others.

All in all your tastes have simply changed somewhat, that is all. The companies you have stated usually have not created something truly original, just something that appeals to you more than other eastern games. Perhaps before we point out the speck of dust in Japan's eye, we should check the space marine shaped plank in our own. Japan cannot be past it's prime if there are developers out there who create original works, and in fact, saying a country of developers being past their prime is somewhat racist.

P.S. I was veering towards a more obvious and definitive point but I left this open for ages and now it's gone, plus i deviated a lot so I may have been rambling/waffling. I may edit later when I am more coherent.

 

[pantsoffdanceoff]

Hmm... gee maybe Japanese developers are popular in Japan and American developers are popular in ... America. Two completely different cultures and two complete different preferences of gaming. So I believe in America we really just want to blow shit up, and that's what American developers are giving.

 

[Mizaki]

This thread is starting to smell like vogue-cynicism, nostalgia, bias, and wank.

Seriously, guys, only elitist RPG fans who hate everything are ranting about Japan falling behind. And by that, I mean wsterners who equate intellect to worth. We live in the west. So when we go to our local game stores, we see western titles. We look at the TV, and see western titles. Well, we're in THE WEST. Of course in an ethnocentric and xenophobic society, only the big fish in the other ponds will be visible with the awful telescope we're given. When it comes down to it, both gaming cultures are falling behind. We just live here so we're being bludgeoned with the games that are popular here. Everything is a franchise. These companies are old now. They're riding off of previous success. Most of them at least. And I will shamelessly go against the grain and say Square Enix is not one of them. If you want to say this and that or blow the other out of proportion due to the inevitable Gamer's Nostalgia, that's just fine. But there actually are people who really like the games made after the year 1997. In fact.. gasp.. things are actually likeable after '97! I'd hate for Enix to stop making Final Fantasy games because of the ridiculous backlash people have bandwagoned themselves into starting. There are always the bunch of people who claim that everything on the planet was better when they were young. And really, I wish people would understand if even just for a WEEK, that they're saying it for all the wrong reasons and it isn't at all constructive. It gets annoying when everything leads to "All RPGs (read: All 3D Final Fantasy games) are bad! And about emo (WHAT?!) feminine (....WHAT?!) boys (okay you got that one)!" There's plenty of people who like these games and play them with their eyes open and their hands on the controller. Please respect them.

 

[NeedAUserName]

Sheesh, you're just changing gaming style. I would like to make a correction though. It's not Sega that needs to be shot for its on good. It's team Sonic.

Yeah but Sega, which used to be a huge corporation, is now A Sonic team, and a director. So, you know, why exclude the director?

 

[Joeshie]

Nice going on completely failing there, Mr. Weeaboo.

How/why is he a weeaboo?

I don't think he really knows what it means. It's also funny that he brings up straw men when you actually look at the previous responses what Terra is talking about in the last quote block isn't a straw man at all.

My calling him a weeaboo is a joke, due to the fact that he will go to lengths of using logical fallacies to defend Japan.

I don't buy this whole "but it's just a cultural difference!" bullshit. That kind of excuse has a place, but certainly not in this discussion.

 

[Altorin]

There has been a decline in the popularity of Japanese Games stateside... but there are many factors that go into it. I think the biggest factor is just that Japanese Games are overhyped to begin with, and always have been. They're probably about as popular as they should be.

 

[inventorvii]

Am I the only one who grew up playing American games?

 

[Altorin]

Am I the only one who grew up playing American games?

how old are you, and what systems did you play?

because there are a few different age groups and consoles where american gaming was stronger.

If you grew up in the late 70s and grew up playing atari

If you grew up in the 80s-90s and played mainly PC games

If you are a little tyke now, and mostly play your Xbox 360

If you fall into those (or maybe a few others I may have missed) demographics, you played primarily american games.

If you fall outside those categories, japanese games is pretty much all there was available.