The Elder Scrolls modders amaze me.

[Shia-Neko-Chan]

Like, when I get into the game industry, is that all I need to do? Just make a huge world for everyone to run around in, add a bunch of generic side-quests, ignore the bugs, and generally pay less attention to anything else? Is that really the kind of game that should be given high scores?

Yes, pretty much. It's a sandbox game.

I could also rip at Skyrim for containing worthless footballing physics and not having licensed the names like the Fifa games do, there isn't even a single goalkeeper in the game! But everyone would see that only a raving lunatic would do that, as Skyrim is not a football simulator.

Hold it right there~

Obviously the combat is a major part of Bethesda's games, because you're always a warrior of some sort. You'll always have a sword, bow, etc. if you do the main quest, you'll always have to fight in the gates or against the dragons, a huge amount of the sidequests require you to fight something. Just walking down the road is going to get you into a fight sometimes in oblivion (monsters, bandits...) The combat is very important, but they just don't really care about it.

It's not just a sandbox. It's also an action game. Why else would it start you in a prison where the main point of surviving is to hold off the people of the unknown organization until the king dies? Why else do you start in an action scene in Skyrim? If the combat weren't an integral part of the game, you'd just start at a dialogue box at the start of every new game that asks if you want to be a fireman instead.

What sort of score would Oblivion have gotten if they'd actually paid attention to detail on the main things that the player has to interact with every time they play? What I mean is, what if they made actually fun combat, good AI, and cleaned up all of their bugs AS WELL AS making their huge world and sidequests?

That's impossible. You can't program an AI to be universally applicable in such a large and diverse world.
Skyrim's AI is pretty much the best AI ever seen that needed to tackle such a variety of tasks. Games that lay claim to a better one use incredible limits on what you can see or do within them, or use specially scripted AI scripts for one occasion only.

I didn't ask for a universally applicable AI, just a good one. Actually, it's probably less the AI itself I have a problem with and more of how unhuman they are.

They definitely could have made them more human with a little more effort. Like, why did they stand complete still and not really change their expression when speaking to you in Oblivion? Why not move their hands a little bit? Why were the animations so horrible? Why were the random conversations so horrible? Why did a modder have to make it so every guard in the world didn't apparently have instant updates on their cellphone about your crime, fine, and position? All of the problems I have with the AI were things that could've been refined with a little more effort and time, not really technical things like pathfinding.

 

[80Maxwell08]

Snip

I knew I should have said something about modders being people who like the game. My mistake there. Though I read your opening post a few times and all you really discussed was why people liked it and how hard it is to fix the bugs in these games which I won't argue. However, my point was you didn't answer anything about the modders' motivation.

 

[Numachuka]

How can a singular "amazes" you?

 

[80Maxwell08]

How can a singular "amazes" you?

Huh should have fixed that when I was editing the title for the 3rd time or so hold on. There we go.

 

[Suijen]

I've created a few small mods before for Fallout 3. The work required, even for small mods, is huge first because you have to learn the system (how the game calculates things and how the SDK works) and then you have to do a lot of trial and error. But it's very rewarding, and it's like building something you really enjoy out of legos; it'll take a lot of work, but watching your effort turn into something is tangible is also very rewarding. I wouldn't make mods, however, if a mod already existed. That is, if there's a mod for throwing knives in Fallout 3, I wouldn't bother creating a mod. I guess it's the feeling that something is missing and you just want it to be fixed, and no one else is around so you have to roll up your sleeves yourself.

 

[80Maxwell08]

I wouldn't make mods, however, if a mod already existed. That is, if there's a mod for throwing knives in Fallout 3, I wouldn't bother creating a mod.

Apparently this thought process does not occur for a lot of modders since I found like 8 different mods all re-balancing THE ENTIRE GAME. Seriously you think they would work together at some point to try and take a load off each other.

 

[Suijen]

Apparently this thought process does not occur for a lot of modders since I found like 8 different mods all re-balancing THE ENTIRE GAME. Seriously you think they would work together at some point to try and take a load off each other.

I'm sure they're not exactly the same. Modders have different philosophies about rebalancing and about what's broken and what's not.

 

[80Maxwell08]

Apparently this thought process does not occur for a lot of modders since I found like 8 different mods all re-balancing THE ENTIRE GAME. Seriously you think they would work together at some point to try and take a load off each other.

I'm sure they're not exactly the same. Modders have different philosophies about rebalancing and about what's broken and what's not.

Honestly I figured this and the post was basically supposed to be humorous from so many people all trying to do something so monumentally huge.

 

[DeathWyrmNexus]

I played Oblivion on the 360 for nearly a thousand hours stretched over three characters... Either you are calling me retarded or missing what makes TES series so great. Fun eh? You also don't seem to have played it enough to know what we know. Unfortunately, that means that it didn't hook you like it did us and thus we can't explain it to you because you won't go back and figure it out on your own.

Kinda like how a joke is no longer funny when you have to explain it, ya know. The fanbase is dedicated because we love the hell out of the series, know the bigger picture with all the writing, and love the huge open world. *shrugs*

 

[Loonyyy]

This passage made me doubt your "Programmer" credentials, as it's terrible.

[HEADING=3]Now, you better read this as it factually answers your question[/HEADING]
It's not perfect. It is buggy and the main quest is arguably short. What it is, though, is fucking enjoyable. I can do almost whatever I want, when I want; stylise my character to be how I want him to be; and have extreme fun while playing it.

Opinion. It doesn't say anything factual, so it's a contradiction. I happen to agree with the opinion, but that wouldn't make it true. Being true for everyone would.

DETAILS:
It doesn't require me to sit down for a hundred hours back-to-back; but doesn't punish me if I do. It doesn't require me to spend extra money to keep the fun going, but offers it as a side option. It doesn't give for competitiveness and multiplayer, but it does offer the best non-scripted single player experiences in gaming to date. It's just amazing. It doesn't force me to do anything, really, but allows me to do nearly anything I want.

Still Opinion. Also, other games that don't require that I spend extra money? Hitman, FEAR, KOTOR, there are all manner of games that don't require constant payments. Moreover, if you're going to mention DLC, you'd best be aware that TES has always had expansions, and some people enjoy getting more content. I'd agree with lots of the opinion, but it's got no bearing on facts. Also, Skyrim is quite scripted. The quests and missions are rather linear, and the game does tend to lack just something. If you wanted an example of a great single player experience, and specifically non-scripted content, then I'd say that Minecraft would be better. It's not at all scripted. I actually prefer Skyrim, because I can acknowledge that some scripting is a good thing. The scripting in Skyrim is often a good thing.

TEARING APART YOUR MAIN POINT:

Not a very nice thing to say, which is another reason why your community is not universally liked.

Now, you said it yourself - the modding community are still updating the Unofficial Oblivion Patch to this day. Point proven, if Bathesda were to release one of their games bug-free, we would have to see it shelved for another 5-10 years after their usual release date while they continued to work on it for an-indefinite ever.
When programming, it is very easy to change a single word/variable/line of code that disrupts another, hidden function elsewhere in the program. You just would never have thought that change would have had any kind of influence to something unassumingly related. It's a right pain in the arse but it happens. Even if you're program is a tiny 10mb's big (like some of mine ((Not an innuendo!))), you will have to spend HOURS running the program in debug mode, trawling through lines of code hunting for bugs, which is why all programs get updated post-release (V1.1, V2.32.43.556.6, etc.).

It doesn't matter how long it would take to release a bug free game. The issue is that there are bugs. The player doesn't care about how much effort it would take to fix it, they care that it works. And when some of these bugs are simple to fix, or simple to detect, they make you question the QA (Bethesda already has a pretty bad record, look at Oblivion and Fallout 3). When programming, it's entirely possible to do things without bugs. I can name several programs that weren't updated post release. Super 64 Mario. Spyro the Dragon. Ocarina of Time. Classic games, heralded and still remembered as greats. Back in the cartridge era, there wasn't patching and post release support, and while the claim may be made that the games were smaller, the thing is, it still counters the point made.

Now try making a 6GB open-ended program where there are a hundred thousand times more variables that you're average buggy FPS. Even a development team of 100, and a testing team of 200 and a year of time to spend couldn't iron out all of the bugs. This now nullifies one of your strongest points. the more variables in a program, the more testing it needs by a lot more.

I don't have to be capable of making the game to criticise it. I don't have to be capable of leading a nation to criticise Hitler, or capable of making a comfortable shoe to criticise ones that hurt my feet, or capable of making good music to criticise Justin Bieber (Everyone likes Bieber jokes still, right?). It's not about ironing out all of the bugs, it's about getting the ones that are obvious and could ruin the game. If I didn't still have the goodwill from Morrowind to keep me going, I wouldn't have played nearly as much Oblivion, and likely wouldn't have purchased Skyrim. And actually, I'm questioning why you use the term, variables, here. In programming, a variable is something distinct, and has a different meaning to the common one, so this is likely to confuse people. In actuality, using multiple programming variables, specifically more identifiers will make programming and debugging easier, but at the expense of a slower, bigger program. IE, if I wanted to make a counter for a gun's bullets, I could have an action "Fire" where the number is changed. I could do this by storing every possible value of the magazine, or by using an operator on the magazine. Now, the operator is more complex, I'll have to account for zeroes and not making negative bullets, but it'll work. The other approach will be much more memory heavy, with a multitude of variables just for the ammo count of each type and instance of each gun.

It is impossible to make something bug-free and still make money from it, unless you're program is a simple calculator suite; or about as linear as a movie, CoD >:[, as then there are almost no variables and the program runs from one subroutine straight into another and no variables so-to-speak; of which can still be buggy after an hour of testing.

Ocarina, Spyro, Mario. I'm not going to belabour this point. You're mistaken. Plenty of games were released in the cartridge era that were free of game breaking issues. Now, the CoD jibe is another reason people dislike you types. You don't need to insult others to make yourself feel good. CoD has an enourmous amount of variables, in both senses of the word. And since you started using the size of the game as a measure before, my MW3 file is 14 Gigabytes. That's a lot of information. Sure, some of it is textures, and images. And a lot of it is code, engines and netcode. That's filled with variables. CoD is pretty linear. But the player still has input, and makes choices, and each of these has the potential for causing an issue (Common use of variable), and each possible action however linear, is described by a whole suite of identifiers (Programming use of variable). It doesn't flow from one subroutine to another with "No Variables". That's as meaningless as that famous Gooey (GUI) interface moment in CSI New York. It's pointless and meaningless, and wrong, jargon, intended to confuse the reader.

SUMMARY, NOT A TL;DR:
We enjoy it so much because it is a good game, and in terms of bugs - it's just not as bad as it could've been. Something as scripted as CoD on the other hand, should be ashamed for even a few bugs, not the shitstorm of faults MW2 was.

It's a good game, yes. In terms of bugs, it's not as bad as it could've been, but that's damning with faint praise. Not having many bugs is still a point against a game, and not for it. Having no bugs is a zero. If a game works fine, then I don't notice any problem. If it doesn't, then I do. CoD may be scripted, but that doesn't remove the possibility for bugs. In fact, the netcode component adds in a greater capacity for problems, as does the multiplayer and the sourcing of an anticheat (However ineffective). More to the point, bashing CoD doesn't make your game seem better, it makes you seem worse.
And the faults of MW2? I'm not sure actually. I've got a few hundred hours in that title, and the straight up faults in the game that were shipped were relatively rare. I had an issue with one machine, which was running an outdated graphics driver, where the text appeared wrong, but that was all. I know others may have had issues, but compared to the Elder Scrolls games you're praising, the bugs don't seem nearly as bad as you make out. And all games should be ashamed of bugs. Bugs are a detriment, they're a negative. Just one bug is a point against the game, but it's less than what happens if a game has many bugs.

It's an excellently designed game that is flawlessly publicised and done in a way that it seeps with lore and ticks all expecting fans' boxes; keeping the experience fresh but not straying too far from its roots. That is why we play it.

Being well publicised means nothing about the quality of the game. Medal of Honour was critically panned and recieved a retively low uptake. That game had a Linkin Park song dedicated to it and included. Battlefield 3 had tanks driving in London. That game had so many bugs prior to and after launch that it makes all the competition look perfect. Skyrim had... trailers? I dunno, the usual sort of thing. Oh, and an insulting competition to name a baby "Dovahkim" if it were born on the release date. Because more children should be bullied for stupid names. Keeping the experience fresh? I dunno, I find the game repetitive myself after a while, and leave it for a week or so at a time. If you wanted a fresh take on an RPG, the recent Fallout titles are a much more interesting beast. Ticking all the boxes? Why's fast travel still in? Where are the polearms? Where's the mounted combat? Why is the armour simplified? It doesn't tick all the boxes. It can't, and it doesn't have to. I love it even with the faults. And if that is why you play it, then I can't understand your logic.

I'd agree with you that Skyrim, and TES in general, are amazing games. But the way you defend this is fundamentally pointless, poor spirited, and actually does harm to the game's community. If you like the game, then the criticism shouldn't disturb you this much.

 

[Therumancer]

EDIT: Ok I do NOT hate any of the Elder Scrolls series. I'm actually glad they manage to succeed so much since Bethesda seems to be one of the few people who doesn't try to dick over their fanbase and from the sheer amount of work that goes into each game. I was just asking about the modding community and their work ethic to a job they don't get paid for. Ok edit over.

Ok quick note I'm only talking about everything after daggerfall since I don't know anything about that or arena. From what I understand about the elder scrolls series ) regardless of the overwhelming high review scores they all have major flaws (I've heard all of these from people who both like and dislike the series, also I'm not one of them since I haven't played enough of any of these to say anything one way or another this is just what I've heard).

They all have an ungodly amount of bugs (though I hear Skyrim is better in this regard) to the point where the Unoffical Oblivion Patch mod is still being updated to this day, the writing is bad (apparently though I can't testify to that since I just started Oblivion and I haven't played more than half an hour of Morrowind also I haven't gotten Skyrim) and the combat is lackluster (Once again I've heard Skyrim is better than this but I've also heard its just more of the same).

What amazes me is how dedicated the fanbase is to making them into the greatest games ever. That the modder (or modders I don't know) who made the Unoffical Oblivion Patch mod still wants to keep working on it shows serious dedication. Then we have Morrowind which is still having new mods made today so it can keep up with modern games. Even Skyrim has had modders going crazy without the Creation Kit being released. So far people have completely rebalanced the combat in Oblivion (sereral people several times actually) and one made a completely new combat system for it. Then we get to the people who made their own games in it (like Nehrim) but people have been doing that one for a long time so while still impressive isn't exactly new (though I am surprised of the amount of people who are doing all the same mods to Nehrim [modding a mod. just throwing it out there]).

I guess my question for discussion value would be this. Why? What drives these people? Where does this dedication come from?

Bethesda is one of the only companies to release these kind of toolboxes for major games and encourage people to screw around with their code. Most companies would freak if people started doing the kinds of things people do to Bethesda's games, never mind work on enabling people to do it.

You'll find other games like "Neverwinter Nights" also built up some very solid communities of modders and module creators largely because this was encouraged.

To be honest criticisms about "bad story and lackluster combat" are kind of inaccurate, and dependant on people's opinions. To be honest the storylines involved in Elder Scrolls are some of the best out there. As far as pure computer game settings go Tamriel is probably the second most detailed setting lore-wise ever created, Brittania being the first (games based on PnP RPG settings are being excluded from this).

To be honest I think part of the appeal of Elder Scrolls is that it's an RPG where the numbers matter more than the player abillity. This annoys casual "shooter" and "brawler" type gamers, but is what RPG nerds are after. With more casuals your seeing more criticism of the stats which is why they are being downplayed with each installment, while the serious RPG players are also increasingly annoyed by the series gradually selling out into an action game.

It's important to also note that when casuals criticize story, they usually are actually critiqueing the technology and how much effort it takes to understand and figure out. To a casual a "good story" is one where they can put their brain into neutral and listen to a lot of voice acting and animated cartoon characters doing their thing to get everything summarized and handing to them in a nice, neat, none-too complex package. In one of Bethesda's games there is more of a focus on picking things up on your own like it would be in reality. Overtly things seem to be straightforward, but that's not always the case. In say a Bioware game is there is supposed to be a question about motives, a hidden agenda, or whatever usually some other NPC will walk up and spell it out for you. In a Bethesda game you might not ever know what's going on unless you dig around, read journals, find hidden diaries and other things. It's sort of like how in "Fallout 3" there is an expansion called "The Pitt" where the obvious bad guy... the slave owning tyrant, is actually better intentioned and the greater good than the freedom-seeking rebels. Of course you wouldn't know this unless you decided to break into a safe and listen to the obvious bad guy's personal logs which nobody directs you to do.

In The Elder Scrolls for example, going back to Morrowwind you see a pretty straightforward "big bad foozle, being opposed by the great good foozle" in the form of Dagoth Ur and Vivec. You start digging into things and you find out that there is a little more to it than that, Vivec and his buddies are kind of arseholes, and Dagoth Ur has some pretty good reasons for what he's trying to do given what happened between them even if there is this issue with massive collateral damage. In Oblivion, Mehrunes Dagon is pure evil right? Well not really, he's doing his job (like most Daedra do) to being change and keep the universe from stagnating. It's sort of like how if you do "The Shivering Isles" and pay attention to what the "Lord Of Insanity" does and why he's important to the universe, summarizing Sheogaroth as being "pure evil" isn't exactly accurate. In general most of what the Daedra do, seems to wind up being for the greater good in the long run.

The point is that there is a lot behind this, but it's not spoon fed to you. Nobody just walks up and says "you know, several thousand years down the road what Mehrunes Dagon is doing right now might actually work out in our favor..." or "Hmm, maybe this whole anti-life Void stuff about Sithis is a little too straightforward, after all The Dark Brotherhood is supposed to follow all these rules and isn't just killing indicriminatly in a truely nilistic fashion".

In comparison to all that depth look at a game that most casuals will tell you has a great story: Mass Effect. It's good, but when you get down to it's pretty shallow and full of stereotypes. I mean the whole "ancient machines coming to wipe out humanity" thing is pretty much cribbed directly from Fred Saberhagan's "Berserker" books, to say nothing of Warhammer 40k's "Necrons" (which seem to be the same source, combined with the Pharons from a defunct competing game called "Vor" which I believe had their guys before the Necrons in 40k). It's not a BAD story but it's hardly deep, with all of the plot twists with Cerberus and everything pretty clearly explained with minimal effort. People see a Salarian do a Gilbert and Sullivan routine and that somehow cements the game as deep in people's mind. Entertaining maybe... but a great story and storytelling in Mass Effect? not really.

I'll also say that it's kind of neat how a lot of the dungeons in Elder Scrolls games have little stories to them you can figure out as you play them, sometimes with diaries and journals, sometimes not.

 

[michael87cn]

EDIT: Ok I do NOT hate any of the Elder Scrolls series. I'm actually glad they manage to succeed so much since Bethesda seems to be one of the few people who doesn't try to dick over their fanbase and from the sheer amount of work that goes into each game. I was just asking about the modding community and their work ethic to a job they don't get paid for. Ok edit over.

Ok quick note I'm only talking about everything after daggerfall since I don't know anything about that or arena. From what I understand about the elder scrolls series ) regardless of the overwhelming high review scores they all have major flaws (I've heard all of these from people who both like and dislike the series, also I'm not one of them since I haven't played enough of any of these to say anything one way or another this is just what I've heard).

They all have an ungodly amount of bugs (though I hear Skyrim is better in this regard) to the point where the Unoffical Oblivion Patch mod is still being updated to this day, the writing is bad (apparently though I can't testify to that since I just started Oblivion and I haven't played more than half an hour of Morrowind also I haven't gotten Skyrim) and the combat is lackluster (Once again I've heard Skyrim is better than this but I've also heard its just more of the same).

What amazes me is how dedicated the fanbase is to making them into the greatest games ever. That the modder (or modders I don't know) who made the Unoffical Oblivion Patch mod still wants to keep working on it shows serious dedication. Then we have Morrowind which is still having new mods made today so it can keep up with modern games. Even Skyrim has had modders going crazy without the Creation Kit being released. So far people have completely rebalanced the combat in Oblivion (sereral people several times actually) and one made a completely new combat system for it. Then we get to the people who made their own games in it (like Nehrim) but people have been doing that one for a long time so while still impressive isn't exactly new (though I am surprised of the amount of people who are doing all the same mods to Nehrim [modding a mod. just throwing it out there]).

I guess my question for discussion value would be this. Why? What drives these people? Where does this dedication come from?

Maybe I'm just lucky, but I've never had any problems with Bethesda Softworks games, I did have massive amounts of trouble with Obsidian's take on the games, though.

In fact, I find that dinking around with mods usually causes more problems than solves. The unofficial oblivion patch you cite, for example. The first time I used it, there were entire chunks of the game missing from Oblivion. I disabled it and presto, fixed.

I don't have much confidence in modders abilities to properly add content to a professionally made game, and I'm saying that with experience of using mods for years.

I don't know why people harp on about how their games are full of bugs and that mods always fix them, etc. I find the opposite true.

 

[ACman]

It's a hobby. If you've got the skills and the inclination to change a game to how you want it, you do it.

Some people don't even do it to play the game. They just do it for the kudos of other users.

 

[JET1971]

As a modder myself(not Eldar scrolls yet) I can answer some of those questions.

1. Modders create new content because we enjoy it and get satisfaction knowing that what we created is giving many others enjoyment.
2. We keep working on mods because there is always just one more thing that can be added.
3. we do it because what we add to a game is what we would want in the game, thus improving our own gameplay experiance.
4. We give away our mods because we first create them for ourselves and share with everyone. If someone else loves that new weapon then its payment enough.

I think that about sums up a basic modders reasons, as for those that continue updating mods for years is because they really love that particular game. you get the same people that will continue to play a game for years such as BF2 or CSS, differance is the modder is always adding more to the game and using others mods so its not like they are playing the same game forever. With Eldar Scrolls games its an open world to start with so adding more and more mods you could virtualy never feel you actualy finished it to personal satisfaction.

Is modding a passion? well to some modders it is. to others its a hobby like model railroads, they do it because they enjoy it. then there are some who do it because they just want such and such changed in the game and dont want to wait for someone else to do it. and some modders do it because they are working to get into game development and mods work good on a resume.

 

[Ruwrak]

Because the open worldness of their games are done really well.

This. Combined with the rich lore makes people get tunnel vision.

Bethesda just has some formula going people love, making people ignore the flaws.

Oh I see the flaws. But I forgive them because they (once again) deliver a game that is just right up my alley.

 

[80Maxwell08]

SNIP OF THE UNHOLY ONE

Ok now that I got that trimmed down thank you for your incredibly long and thought out post. I actually did read it but I really don't have much to say about it. Also thank you for realizing that Mass Effect's story is nowhere near as good as people keep saying.