The Elder Souls?

[Baddamobs]

I personally think it would be a good idea, though I am a big Souls fan to start with, which might bias me.
Combining TES open world exploration with a weighty combat system like Dark Souls would do wonders to improve the "who has the biggest stick" problem I have with TES, and if they made it their own (i.e., not a direct copy, but gave it their own twist while keeping the weight), would be pretty awesome.

 

[Windcaler]

There would have to be a lot of changes around Dark souls first person mode which doesnt exist outisde of modding (and even there it isnt all that great).

That said, I think dark souls style combat would be the best thing that could happen to the TES series. As is the combat is utter garbage, having little more then power attacks and shield bahses (and even that is a recent addition) so it needs some kind of massive upgrade. However I dont think Bethesda would take the time to add in new move sets for each kind of weapon. I have a feeling they would just make each similar weapon have a similar moveset only certain ones do more damage which is lazy IMO

 

[Rutskarn]

If TES's combat system, but nothing else, was replaced with the combat system of Demon's/Dark Souls, would it bother you or would you be cool with it? It'd obviously require a lot of balancing in the terms of potion drinking and level design of TES, but I think it'd be worth it.

For a fantasy world, TES leaves a lot to be desired in the terms of big boss fights and mystical creatures which I think Dark Souls particularly excelled in, and it'd just tighten up he game a lot more and make it more enjoyable, even if it wasn't as challenging as Dark Souls.

Your thoughts?

In order of series entry:

Arena is probably the game this kind of change would be best suited to. Due to limitations in design, budget, technology, and precedent, the game wasn't too much more than a prolonged dungeon crawl. A new system of combat would expand on this without really hampering it.

Daggerfall is similarly disposed. Its focus on puzzle dungeons might be a bit antithetical, as it involves a lot of backtracking and experimentation that would doubtless get old (either because areas repopulate with enemies, or they don't, meaning combat is much rarer and more likely to catch you off guard when it does happen).

I can't say the approach would work well for Morrowind. Morrowind's combat was deliberately understated; dungeon enemies are no longer the main feature, but merely a hazard to make exploration more perilous. This is demonstrated by the increasing variance in dungeon layouts, features, loot varieties, and story relevance and the decreasing volume of monster spawns. Adding significantly more challenge to the combat would mean overemphasizing it as part of the experience, and would probably mean weakening systems (such as invisibility, levitation, mark/recall, calm, etc) that remove or alter the parameters of combat.

Oblivion places a little more focus on combat and removes a lot of the interesting spell systems that previous series focused on, either as ways to enhance the dungeon crawling (in Arena and Daggerfall) or systems to explore (in Morrowind). Skyrim takes similar steps. In either, I'd say the Dark Souls approach would be welcome.

 

[The Goat Tsar]

No, I'd really dislike that. I don't like the Elder Scrolls combat, but I dislike Dark Soul's combat even more. I couldn't even put more than an hour into that game. I play Elder Scrolls games for the opportunity to explore a huge world, not the combat, so I guess I'm willing to give it a pass on being kinda "meh." How would you even pull off Dark Souls combat in a first person game?

EDIT:

Mount and Blade combat >>>> Dark Souls, and it would fit better in the world (it's more native to the keyboard and mouse, for one thing). Of course, "Mount and Scrolls" doesn't have the same ring as "Elder Souls" does.

I would not be opposed to a Mount and Blade style of combat. I haven't played the game myself, but I've seen some gameplay videos. I think it would be nice in the Elder Scrolls games, but I'm not 100% sure.

 

[endtherapture]

The thing is with TES that everyhing is humanoid and melee most of the time. There's the odd spellcaster but the Dwarven Automatons, Draugr, Spriggans etc. all fight the same effectively. It really needs more of a variety in the way creatures and enemies are designed and fight, taking a leaf out of Dark Souls' book, to make combat more interesting.

Also I'm very surprised for the amount of people playing TES as a "hiking simulator" when the game has so much combat.

 

[SajuukKhar]

Also I'm very surprised for the amount of people playing TES as a "hiking simulator" when the game has so much combat.

That's because combat has never been a big deal in TES, its just something that's there to make the exploration more dangerous.

The thing is with TES that everyhing is humanoid and melee most of the time. There's the odd spellcaster but the Dwarven Automatons, Draugr, Spriggans etc. all fight the same effectively.

There are around 30 dungeons that are primary inhabited by warlocks and vampires, both of which are ranged attackers.

And out of the Draugr, Falmer, Bandit, and Forsworn dungeons, around 30% of attackers are either mages of archers.

 

[endtherapture]

Also I'm very surprised for the amount of people playing TES as a "hiking simulator" when the game has so much combat.

That's because combat has never been a big deal in TES, its just something that's there to make the exploration more dangerous.

Combat seems to be THE POINT of TES seeing as the entire leveling system is balanced around it. No combat = no leveling system. Then why should there be combat if the game is just about exploration?

 

[SajuukKhar]

Combat seems to be THE POINT of TES seeing as the entire leveling system is balanced around it. No combat = no leveling system. Then why should there be combat if the game is just about exploration?

Because exploration without combat is kinda boring?

Also, only about 6 of the 18 skills require combat, one-handed, two-handed, archery, block, light armor, and heavy armor.

You can use the other 12 skills for non combat purposes.

 

[endtherapture]

Combat seems to be THE POINT of TES seeing as the entire leveling system is balanced around it. No combat = no leveling system. Then why should there be combat if the game is just about exploration?

Because exploration without combat is kinda boring?

Also, only about 6 of the 18 skills require combat, one-handed, two-handed, archery, block, light armor, and heavy armor.

You can use the other 12 skills for non combat purposes.

What is the point of all of the magics and all of the alchemy and the smithing and stealth and the entire loot system if it is not just to get you through combat? I know you're passionate about TES but this time you're just in plain denial. TES is focused around the combat system just as much as it is the exploration, and the combat system sucks.

 

[SajuukKhar]

What is the point of all of the magics and all of the alchemy and the smithing and stealth and the entire loot system if it is not just to get you through combat?

To make exploration fun?

-Exploring stuff without any reward(loot)is pretty boring.
-Getting loot without any sort of challenge(enemies)is also pretty boring.
-Not being able to deal with those enemies, using skills, is also pretty boring.
-Only having one way to kill those enemies using skills is also pretty boring.

All those magics/stealth/melee exist to give you multiple ways to kill shit because killing shit and getting loot makes exploring fun.

 

[endtherapture]

What is the point of all of the magics and all of the alchemy and the smithing and stealth and the entire loot system if it is not just to get you through combat?

To make exploration fun?

-Exploring stuff without any reward(loot)is pretty boring.
-Getting loot without any sort of challenge(enemies)is also pretty boring.
-Not being able to deal with those enemies, using skills, is also pretty boring.
-Only having one way to kill those enemies using skills is also pretty boring.

All those magics/stealth/melee exist to give you multiple ways to kill shit because killing shit and getting loot makes exploring fun.

Thank you just proved my point for me that combat is indeed a big point of TES.

 

[SajuukKhar]

Thank you just proved my point for me that combat is indeed a big point of TES.

Actually, I proved the opposite, that combat is only there to serve to make exploration more fun then it is by itself.

Its like combat in minecraft, or garrys mod, just more developed.

 

[endtherapture]

Thank you just proved my point for me that combat is indeed a big point of TES.

Actually, I proved the opposite, that combat is only there to serve to make exploration more fun then it is by itself.

Or vice versa.

 

[Kilo24]

A very large part of Dark Souls's carefully tuned combat is that everything in it is refined to a high degree. Dark Souls is actually not that large of a game, but the difficulty and oppressive atmosphere which pervaded the whole experience made it seem far larger. It was dangerous and exciting to explore in a way that The Elder Scrolls never achieved.

In a game the size of Skyrim, putting the same care into each environment, weapon, and enemy would be prohibitively expensive; even if it the combat was up to the quality of Dark Souls, being cut and pasted everywhere would make it get old quick. There's also that Skyrim has you constantly improving over a wider range than Dark Souls does which makes it even harder to predict how powerful a player will be at a given point in the game, so it's even harder to design quality content for. Even though DS has a similarly obscene level cap, diminishing returns on stats, weapons and armor with concrete and relatively low caps, and a consumable system that's far less forgiving put significant caps on power - something that Skyrim doesn't have (especially when you factor in Enchanting + Alchemy + Smithing synergizing with eachother). For The Elder Scrolls to get much better combat, I think it would have to remove a lot of the progression that has come to characterize it (not that I think that that would be a bad thing).

I do think that Skyrim and Oblivion have improved on their predecessors in regard to improving, and I am curious to see what the future holds for The Elder Scrolls non-MMOs. But Dark Souls/Demon's Souls are still in a different league of combat mechanics, and I really don't see that changing unless Bethesda abandons quantity in favor of quality.

 

[SajuukKhar]

Or vice versa.

I would like to see the logic behind that when the game gives you plenty of ways to get through things without killing anything. If it was combat based, then everything would require combat, which it doesn't.

But anyways, back more on point, the main problem with TES's combat is that it never makes you use anything beyond the most basic attack, not that it doesn't have anything to offer beyond the most basic attack.

Skyrim has plenty of things to make combat more interesting, including various power attacks, each with their own "how much damage am I gonna take from this/what kind of damage will I do" tradeoff.
-Backwards power attacks that paralyze people.
-Standing power attacks that do more base damage + decapitation.
-Forward power attacks that do bonus critical damage.
-Side-to-side power attacks that let you hit multiple enemies at once.

Then there is stuff like
-Blocking with your shield right as someone attacks you staggers them, which gives you a reason to time your block, rather then just holding the block button all the time.
-Shield bashing someone when they go for a power attack staggers them, which gives you a reason to time your shield bashes, rather then just spamming them.
-The Shield Charge perk which allows you to knock down people for a couple second, useful when facing a large group of enemies that are knocking your health down pretty quickly.
-The quick Reflexes perk which slows time time if you block while someone tries to power attack you, which makes it easier to dodge/shield bash them.
-The weapon perks that give swords additional critical damage, maces armor piercing, and axes bleed damage, which makes each weapon type have its own role.

They just never make you use any of it. It's actually quite a fun game when you do use it.

 

[endtherapture]

Or vice versa.

I would like to see the logic behind that when the game gives you plenty of ways to get through things without killing anything. If it was combat based, then everything would require combat, which it doesn't.

Everything does involve combat. All the main questlines involve slaughtering hundreds of Thalmor/Dwarven constructions/Bandits/Draugr/Dragons/Vampires. Try and get through any dungeon without killing anything. There's very few quests you can talk your way out of, and most quests involve being sent into a dungeon to kill things and then maybe retrieve an object.

If you could use your skills to navigate your way around combat, like in New Vegas, well yeah then I'd give you that one, but Skyrim doesn't take that approach, it's just "kill everything", so logically they should make the combat better.

Also make all of the weapons distinct. Axes/swords/maces/hammers all feel exactly the same in TES, unnoticable variation in that case. Also the monsters suck. You can't even deny that, there's no interesting movesets and all that monsters really do it charge you with identical melee attacks pretty much.

 

[EternallyBored]

Also I'm very surprised for the amount of people playing TES as a "hiking simulator" when the game has so much combat.

That's because combat has never been a big deal in TES, its just something that's there to make the exploration more dangerous.

Combat seems to be THE POINT of TES seeing as the entire leveling system is balanced around it. No combat = no leveling system. Then why should there be combat if the game is just about exploration?

If you stick to sneaking, bartering, and non-combat spells its entirely possible to level without fighting anything. If you stick to archery and backstabs, or high level conjuration or destruction spells, you can end most fights before they even start. If I remember right you could even beat morrowind really only being required to kill less than a dozen monsters, everything else you could run from or sneak past. As for combat being the point of TES, for some people maybe, but most people I meet talk about exploring the world or doing interesting things with the freedom the game gives you, or its modding tools, even the people that like TES style combat usually recognize that that's not why most people play the games. As for why have combat if the point is exploration, that's because even if its the main point, people still like other activities to break the flow, between exploring and experiencing the story, combat helps punctuate the game so it isn't just a hiking simulator

As for putting DS combat in TES, like people have mentioned Dark Souls' combat is suited to third person play, Bethesda would be required to eliminate first person view entirely to make it work well. The elder Scrolls combat system could use some improvement, but the answer isn't to just rip out another game's combat system wholesale and insert it into Elder Scrolls, different combat systems work better for different games. People have brought up mount and blade, that would likely be a better fit for improving combat in Elder Scrolls without having to change the feel of the old system completely. Another game everyone forgets about, that could probably improve the sense of impact in Elder Scrolls melee combat at least, is Dark Messiah of Might and Magic, that game had some pretty good first person melee combat going for it.

EDIT: Hell Morrowind let you level up just by running around with acrobatics, and you can level even more combat oriented talents just by paying trainers or casting random low level spells. The Elder Scrolls series has one of the least combat focused leveling systems in pretty much any video game RPG, I can't think of another system that would let you reach level cap without even killing a single enemy.

 

[SajuukKhar]

Everything does involve combat. All the main questlines involve slaughtering hundreds of Thalmor/Dwarven constructions/Bandits/Draugr/Dragons/Vampires. Try and get through any dungeon without killing anything. There's very few quests you can talk your way out of, and most quests involve being sent into a dungeon to kill things and then maybe retrieve an object.

If you could use your skills to navigate your way around combat, like in New Vegas, well yeah then I'd give you that one, but Skyrim doesn't take that approach, it's just "kill everything", so logically they should make the combat better.

I have quite literally gotten through the whole game without killing anything myself.

Sneak thief, or illusion mage, or conjuration mage. It's actually quite easy.

Also the monsters suck. You can't even deny that, there's no interesting movesets and all that monsters really do it charge you with identical melee attacks pretty much.

The vast majority of monsters you are in TES games are animals.... animals don't have "move sets" they are hostile predators which attack on sight.

Besides that, the next biggest threat you face are undead, which are rotten things driven only by hatred or some magical command, again, not really in the position to have complex tactics.

Bandits, and bandit variants such as the forsworn, are the next biggest threat, and bandit traditionally operate on a "swarm them" mentality. Very few bandits IRL were highly trained in advanced battle tactics, they just swarmed and pillaged defenseless people

Also make all of the weapons distinct. Axes/swords/maces/hammers all feel exactly the same in TES, unnoticable variation in that case.

I do believe I already addressed that in my previous post.

 

[AntiChri5]

Or vice versa.

I would like to see the logic behind that when the game gives you plenty of ways to get through things without killing anything. If it was combat based, then everything would require combat, which it doesn't.

Everything does involve combat. All the main questlines involve slaughtering hundreds of Thalmor/Dwarven constructions/Bandits/Draugr/Dragons/Vampires. Try and get through any dungeon without killing anything. There's very few quests you can talk your way out of, and most quests involve being sent into a dungeon to kill things and then maybe retrieve an object.

Right, you are going to have to provide your definition of combat.

Between Conjuration, Illusion, Sneak, Alchemy, Pickpocketing and the runes from Destruction it's pretty easy to kill entire dungeons worth of enemies without ever engaging in combat. Or at least the definition of combat that i and (it seems) most people in this thread are going by.

 

[immortalfrieza]

The Elder Scrolls has two main problems in my book:

- Lacking Characters. It's okay to populate your open world, but there shoulb be _some_ Characters around that are delivered well and make me care about them.

- Combat. Feedback, Move variety and general impact. Especially Warriorbuilds tend to be Block->Slash->Block->Slash etc. Skyrim made a step into the right direction by adding some extra animations (Which are expanded, by using Mods like Killmove+, try those btw.) but not much more.

I'll throw in a third:

-Voice acting. Why after 3 games does it seem like there's only 2 male voices and 2 female voices for everybody, especially the generic characters where it matters the most? I mean, by now Bethesda has the cash to hire dozens of voice actors, and even if they are too cheap to do that, they could put in some voice effects and screw with the sound balancing to make them sound different at the very least.