The Escapist's General Manager and Adam Baldwin support GG, attack the entire political left

[Zontar]

Social Justice is about creating equality and ending bigotry?

That's a joke, right? Right? I've never, in my life, seen any group as openly bigoted, racist or sexist as they are. The only ones I can think of which are more so are either secretive ones which do noting in public or groups which don't even exist anymore.

I stopped reading your comment after that, it's pure ideology with no rationality, and you can't really argue against that due to its nature.

Edit: something to also remember: it's the message that matters, not the messenger. Actually, now that I think about it, shouldn't this be part of the GamerGate megathread?

 

[Happiness Assassin]

Mind providing a quote of the offending material, as the article itself is the length short novel. Because as it stands I have seen nothing that purports things like "indoctrinating the youth into becoming evil liberal commies." The article provides testimony from both sides of the debate from people actually within the industry.

 

[firebobm173]

Mind providing a quote of the offending material, as the article itself is the length short novel. Because as it stands I have seen nothing that purports things like "indoctrinating the youth into becoming evil liberal commies." The article provides testimony from both sides of the debate from people actually within the industry.

Adam: In the educational programs, in elementary schools, in colleges, they teach a curriculum of being ?change agents.? They teach you to ?be the change you wish to see in the world.? So you get these game journalists, journalists in general, who want to change the world by invoking social justice, which really just means ?have the government be bigger, take more money from people, and institute fairness quotas?? or whatever the hell they define fairness as that day! But that?s what they?re doing, and they?re caught out, and they don?t like it. They don?t like sunlight.

Control F the article if you don't believe me.

 

[Sleepy Sol]

Yeah, Baldwin said some pretty ridiculous stuff. It's an interview. I don't agree with him at all. That's fine.

But where's the "condemnation of the entire political left" from Macris? All the things you're getting rustled at were said by Baldwin.

Unless you see the mere fact that Macris interviewed Baldwin as grounds that he holds the exact same views.

Which is kinda odd, I must say.

 

[dragoongfa]

Everyone is entintitled to his opinion, Adam Baldwin has his own, people can agree and disagree with him.

However saying that a journalist who values objective truth is attacking and 'condemning the entire political left' because he took an interview is how can I put it?

Strawmanning?

 

[Megafire]

Everyone is entintitled to his opinion, Adam Baldwin has his own, people can agree and disagree with him.

However saying that a journalist who values objective truth is attacking and 'condemning the entire political left' because he took an interview is how can I put it?

Strawmanning?

Either that or a very damning statement on the political left.

 

[Ronin1325]

In this recent interview [http://www.everyjoe.com/2014/10/06/news/interview-adam-baldwin-gamergate-politics-ranger/] The escapist's own General Manager Alexander Macris, known on the forums as archon [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/profiles/view/Archon] and none other than Firefly alumni and right wing lunatic [https://twitter.com/AdamBaldwin/status/518293964571418624] Adam Badlwin talk about gamergate and Social Justice in general. They not only openly support #gamergate, but they condemn the entirety of the Social Justice movement and their attempts to create equality and end bigotry. In the interview they talk about how the entire united states academic institution, from for profit colleges to elementary schools, is indoctrinating the youth into becoming evil liberal commies, and say that all all the problems that liberals fight against are unalterable facets of human nature and as such should be ignored. GG has talked a big game about keeping agendas out of games, but how do you explain this, when not only one of your biggest supporters but the General Manager of this very website openly goes against social justice and condemns the entire left political spectrum?

This is fascinating to me, firebobm173. You think the Gaming Morality Force is *actually* trying to 'end bigotry'? You think that screeds like this-

"there is no such thing as misandry just like there is no such thing as 'racism against white people'" -Leigh Alexander

Accurately reflect Feminism? That 'truth' is only determined by those in power? It's clear that the GMF has reinterpreted 'misogyny' to mean- 'Calling a woman out on anything wrong that she does.' I understand that. That's why they could lambast Eron G. and ignore all the real abuse he suffered, while just focusing on what might happen with his Ex.

So, it's okay that Guys like Brad Wardell get blasted with 'SCANDAL'! In the media, while if it happens to a woman all that we hear from the media is 'MALE OPPRESSOR!'.

That's your idea of 'fighting bigotry'? Classy, very classy.

 

[Jux]

While I don't see anything in particular from Archon detailing his own opinions, I think it's pretty unfortunate the way Archon decided to do the interview. Between the softball questions and leading Baldwin on in the direction of bashing the left as alternately naive and vicious, I think it's pretty aparent where Archon's sympathies lie.

Oh if I had a nickel for everytime someone screeched about how gg wasn't about politics or 'sjws' but journalistic integrity, I'd retire here and now. Pretty damn shameful.

 

[Zontar]

Oh if I had a nickel for everytime someone screeched about how gg wasn't about politics or 'sjws' but journalistic integrity, I'd retire here and now. Pretty damn shameful.

And If I had a nickel for everytime someone implied that it was about politics and social justice with intentional omission that it's due to the fact that games 'journalists' have been shoving it down our throats for the past few years at the cost of integrity and legitimacy, I'd already be retired.

 

[Jux]

Oh if I had a nickel for everytime someone screeched about how gg wasn't about politics or 'sjws' but journalistic integrity, I'd retire here and now. Pretty damn shameful.

And If I had a nickel for everytime someone implied that it was about politics and social justice with intentional omission that it's due to the fact that games 'journalists' have been shoving it down our throats for the past few years at the cost of integrity and legitimacy, I'd already be retired.

I called it on day one that this was nothing but a misogynistic hate campaign and that 'SJWs' were becoming the new boogeyman to push back against, the new reason for gamers to dig in their heels and protest any sort of change. That they managed to fling shit at a wall till some of it stuck has done nothing to dissuade me of my original call.

 

[Zontar]

I called it on day one that this was nothing but a misogynistic hate campaign

And there hasn't been a day which has proven that right.

The only thing this whole issue has shown is that the social justice movement is a bigoted movement which believes only white men are capable of not agreeing with them, and that the only thing they resort to when called out on their claims and/or actions is accusing people of being white men who are misogynists and racists, even when the people in question are women or of any other race. The only thing this has accomplished for the movement is tarter its image and cement misogyny being a word added to the list of ones whose misuse has made it a white noise insult, not criticism of character.

 

[TheYellowCellPhone]

Social Justice is about creating equality and ending bigotry?

That's a joke, right? Right? I've never, in my life, seen any group as openly bigoted, racist or sexist as they are. The only ones I can think of which are more so are either secretive ones which do noting in public or groups which don't even exist anymore.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions, as the saying goes... Doesn't surprise me.

 

[MysticSlayer]

Everyone is entintitled to his opinion, Adam Baldwin has his own, people can agree and disagree with him.

However saying that a journalist who values objective truth is attacking and 'condemning the entire political left' because he took an interview is how can I put it?

Strawmanning?

There were a few times where he used the discussion as a launching pad to complain about the left:

Adam: In the educational programs, in elementary schools, in colleges, they teach a curriculum of being "change agents." They teach you to "be the change you wish to see in the world." So you get these game journalists, journalists in general, who want to change the world by invoking social justice, which really just means "have the government be bigger, take more money from people, and institute fairness quotas" -- or whatever the hell they define fairness as that day! But that's what they're doing, and they're caught out, and they don't like it. They don't like sunlight...

Adam: Yeah, the "tolerant crowd" is not really that tolerant. They're only tolerant if you agree with them...

Adam: That's correct. Whereas I say "not evil, just wrong." Although there are limits to that, too. If the government gets too big then it does become evil. It becomes an unstoppable force. I think it was in Heaven On Earth, by Josh Muravchik, where he quotes -- I forget who -- basically, "Socialism: If you build it, they will leave."

EveryJoe: Therefore it must build an Iron Curtain to keep them in....

EveryJoe: John C. Wright called such folks "an embarrassment to the forces of evil."

Adam: (laughs) They are. I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed but I know left wing jargon when I see it....

I added the emphasis to draw attention to where they were clearly lumping their antagonism towards the left in with their complaints about game journalism.

Now, I would have added that they weren't condemning everyone on the left, but considering that they referenced the left as "the forces of evil", I really can't say that they at least had some restraint when complaining about those they disagree with.

 

[Jux]

I called it on day one that this was nothing but a misogynistic hate campaign

And there hasn't been a day which has proven that right.

Much in the same way that the earth has yet to be proven a spheroid to those that wish to plug their ears and engage in solipsism or crackpot theories I suppose.

The only thing this whole issue has shown is that the social justice movement is a bigoted movement which believes only white men are capable of not agreeing with them, and that the only thing they resort to when called out on their claims and/or actions is accusing people of being white men who are misogynists and racists, even when the people in question are women or of any other race. The only thing this has accomplished for the movement is tarter its image and cement misogyny being a word added to the list of ones whose misuse has made it a white noise insult, not criticism of character.

Is this one of those things where you expect me to say "But I'm a social justice advocate and I don't do that, stop painting everyone with such a wide brush" so you can come back with "Ah ha, but you did the same about GG!" ? Because I'll freely acknowledge that there are plenty of people in the GG movement I don't consider misogynists, they just got caught up in a movement that started as such, and that only 'shifted gears' to journalistic integrity when it was apparent that not everyone was going to jump on the bandwagon about slut shaming Quinn.

Except that for being a movement about journalistic integrity, GG has embraced some pretty unethical people and doesn't practice much journalistic integrity itself during it's amateur sleuthing. And ya'll seem to do more bitching about SJWs then any sort of advocacy for journalistic standards. Nor does it seem that any of ya'll (impersonal ya'll here, I don't know or care if you personally are part of the movement) are willing to admit that the reason all those websites clamped down so hard on the Quinn threads spammed aross their boards was because Quinn wasn't a journalist, nor was there any evidence provided that what she did was done in order to garner favors within the industry.

 

[dragoongfa]

snip

I am going to say something here and take this as you will:

Those things that Adam Baldwin complains about? The ever increasing size of the public sector, the over taxation of everyone, the demonization of any and all opposition.

Those exact things happened in Greece and you know how that song and dance ended for my country.

EDIT: And yes in interviews the Interviewee is expected to be biased and present his personal POV.

 

[Zontar]

Because I'll freely acknowledge that there are plenty of people in the GG movement I don't consider misogynists, they just got caught up in a movement that started as such, and that only 'shifted gears' to journalistic integrity when it was apparent that not everyone was going to jump on the bandwagon about slut shaming Quinn.

So you acknowledge that those who are misogynist within the movement are a fringe minority then, and that the issue is about ethics in games 'journalism'? I'd also like to know where the slut shaming occurred, since the only insults I saw seemed to be along the lines of cheater shaming, not slut shaming (which isn't that unexpected given the fact that cheating is a public health hazard). This whole thing was about ethics in games media right from the start, it's the reason it what should have been just a one-off article by gaming sites about something which was par for the course for content turned into, well, this.

Except that for being a movement about journalistic integrity, GG has embraced some pretty unethical people and doesn't practice much journalistic integrity itself during it's amateur sleuthing. And ya'll seem to do more bitching about SJWs then any sort of advocacy for journalistic standards.

There where problems, yes, but at no point was the reporting of information by those who took up arms for GamerGate at the low stardards of actual games journalism. Now I know that isn't saying much, games journalism is so bad these days it's glorified advertisement, but it's shapped up and now it looks like whatever survives this event without going into obscurity will be the better for it.

Nor does it seem that any of ya'll (impersonal ya'll here, I don't know or care if you personally are part of the movement) are willing to admit that the reason all those websites clamped down so hard on the Quinn threads spammed aross their boards was because Quinn wasn't a journalist, nor was there any evidence provided that what she did was done in order to garner favors within the industry.

The 'spamming' was due to the fact that everyone was actively removing any mention of her, despite the fact that the level of evidence brought against her was greater (not on par, but greater then) then evidence that those same sites have used to call people rapists, have them fired and blacklist them from the industry. Their not reporting on it alone was a massive act of hypocrisy on their part, one which was believed (and then later proven) to have happened only because of her connections with industry insiders.

They could have stopped it by just having the major sites make a small one-off article about it. That would have prevented this whole thing. Instead they chose to go the censorship route, and the rest is history.

 

[SentimentalGeek]

Oh if I had a nickel for everytime someone screeched about how gg wasn't about politics or 'sjws' but journalistic integrity, I'd retire here and now. Pretty damn shameful.

And If I had a nickel for everytime someone implied that it was about politics and social justice with intentional omission that it's due to the fact that games 'journalists' have been shoving it down our throats for the past few years at the cost of integrity and legitimacy, I'd already be retired.

I called it on day one that this was nothing but a misogynistic hate campaign and that 'SJWs' were becoming the new boogeyman to push back against, the new reason for gamers to dig in their heels and protest any sort of change. That they managed to fling shit at a wall till some of it stuck has done nothing to dissuade me of my original call.

Course it hasn't, because with an outlook so blinkered from the outset there's no evidence that'd dissuade you of it.

snip

I am going to say something here and take this as you will:

Those things that Adam Baldwin complains about? The ever increasing size of the public sector, the over taxation of everyone, the demonization of any and all opposition.

Those exact things happened in Greece and you know how that song and dance ended for my country.

EDIT: And yes in interviews the Interviewee is expected to be biased and present his personal POV.

You're genuinely arguing that the USA is a case of 'ever-increasing size of public sector' and over-taxation? The polarisation isn't helped by Baldwin, and his 'suspicions' [https://twitter.com/AdamBaldwin/status/518293964571418624].

Greece is a lesson in not tying yourself with radically differing countries currencies and that rampant tax avoidance can lead to deficits that are crucified at a time of worldwide depression, and not much else.

 

[Jux]

So you acknowledge that those who are misogynist within the movement are a fringe minority then, and that the issue is about ethics in games 'journalism'?

I make no claims as to what percentage of the movement they comprise, though I will unequivocally say they were the progenitors of the movement. As for whether the issue is about ethics in games journalism, I think my answer further down in the post made it clear I think it's a red herring, albeit a red herring that many people have taken to heart as the true issue.

I'd also like to know where the slut shaming occurred, since the only insults I saw seemed to be along the lines of cheater shaming, not slut shaming (which isn't that unexpected given the fact that cheating is a public health hazard). This whole thing was about ethics in games media right from the start, it's the reason it what should have been just a one-off article by gaming sites about something which was par for the course for content turned into, well, this.

Quinns personal sex life isn't my business, it isn't your business. It isn't newsworthy. I find it interesting that you'd try to justify it because you arbitrarily decide that it's 'cheater shaming' and therefor not 'slut shaming', considering that the very definition of slut shaming is that its a process that women are attacked for not conforming to accepted codes of sexual conduct (paraphrased from wiki, if you want a source on that).

The 'spamming' was due to the fact that everyone was actively removing any mention of her, despite the fact that the level of evidence brought against her was greater (not on par, but greater then) then evidence that those same sites have used to call people rapists, have them fired and blacklist them from the industry. Their not reporting on it alone was a massive act of hypocrisy on their part, one which was believed (and then later proven) to have happened only because of her connections with industry insiders.

History revisionism at it's best. That shit was spammed across multiple sites over the course of a day. The Escapist was saturated with at least 6-12 threads, all by new posters. It was a coordinated effort to spread it as far and fast as possible. As for allegations of rape or sexual harassment being reported and this not, that's not a double standard. This was a case of someone having private relationships within the industry exposed, not a crime occuring.

They could have stopped it by just having the major sites make a small one-off article about it. That would have prevented this whole thing. Instead they chose to go the censorship route, and the rest is history.

Yes, they could have stooped to the level of tabloid gossip rag nonsense. But they didn't, and they have my respect for it. Honestly as much as I like the contributors at the Escapist, I think management did a major disservice in allowing that witch hunt to happen here. I've definitely been spending more time at places like RPS, Kotaku and Gamasutra as a result.