The Fast Track To Internet Infamy

[Areloch]

I think it's getting a bit heated in here. May be a good time for people to take a break, get something to drink, blow up aliens in a game.

I would like to step in here about this part though:

you talk to ME about being reasonable and then...and then with such condescension and a little pat on the head and shove that crap at me like....like that's it? that's the fucking solution to everyone's problems? if the silly whatevers just go away and make their own whatever that absolves the rest of us any critical thought? it protects the feewings of all those poor souls who get that little twinge in their stomach the moment something they like is criticised

that image is everything wrong with peuso progressive disingenuous people, and the fact that you honestly don't see the issue with it goes to show a complete refusal to understand

and you wonder why people het pissed off

While I think NK's presentation of the image wasn't as diplomatic as it could have been, I do have to inquire how pointing out that the best way to ensure you get the kind of media you want is to make it yourself is "everything wrong with psuedo progressive disingenuous people"

I may be missing some other context, as this thread got somewhat heated and I skimmed through the more ornery parts, but I hope you elaborate what you mean there for me.

While it's absolutely true you cannot wave a "do it yourself" card to alleviate all criticism, it's also a valid point to make that at a certain point, if no one is doing it and it makes you that upset, show them how it's done. If there's a genuine interest, then the consumer will happily throw money at you for fulfilling it, and that will show others that it's worth pursuing.

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

well make up your mind dude, you care about what minorities feel or not? how is me not feeling alineated any less important than someone feeling alineated?

its good you don't feel alienated, but that doesn't mean some don't

ok how about this, i feel alineated when other people feel alineated

now what?

[quote/]
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." -Martin Luther King, Jr.

martian luther king said a thing...whoop de fucking do[/quote]

werent you supposed to be rational?

[quote/]im going to repeat myself once more, i am aparently one of these supposedly oppressed minorities, ive never felt alineated from anything in the media, i never cared if the characters of the films i watches, the books i read or the games i played were black, latino, white, female, male, anthropomorphic animals, robots, spaceships, etc

so what? I should do the same? not care?

oh oh no no sorry

I should go away, I should stop talking...we should all go the fuck away shouldn't we?

because everytime someone says "make your own games" every time someone pulls a "what about the menz" ever time someone tries to mansplain the fact that we all have an eaqual share of the oppression pie that's what they are saying

that's what YOU are saying, you don't want us to be reasonable, you want us to be silent

yeah, no your right, I should stop hurting peoples feelings by being critical of media [/quote]

did you seriously use the term "mansplain" unironically?

let me tell you something, what if i told a girl i dont want to hear her "girlsplanations" or a black man i dont want to hear his "blacksplanations"

think about what you are actually saying man

if you dont accept people, if you dont stop looking for ways in which we are different, you will only perpetuate a circle of hate and intolerance

[quote/]however you know what i have seen? your argument about priviledges and stuff, being used here, only this time refering to upper class people, what race could never do classism and politics did, my country has been divided in two, some of the most outrageous excesses have been commited in order to eliminate the priviledge of those in the upper class, some of the most blatant lies have been told to satisfy the poor masses

except, no, all the lies, are the excesses, they were done with the only purpose of bringing the people behind this movement into power and indulge themselves

so no, it doesnt work

your version of "it" and my version of "it" are cealry ver different [/quote]

i dont think so, ive heard it all

"they are the priviledged"

"it doesnt matter what they say"

"they are the reason you live soo poorly"

etc

[quote/]as for gamers not being rational, do you think its fair to tell an artist what he can or cannot do with his work?

NO ONE IS SAYING THAT

and there you go again, eather its equality for everyone or its artistic integrity....its the same thing in the end, an utter refusal to understand or acknowledge why people feel that way


no no its always something else...its this...its that let me quote martin luther king! let me show you the light of all equality you silly female, let me tell you why you should shut up but I'll be nice about it!

[quote/]if you are unsatisfied by the kind of games being made right now, allow me to show you this image

really, what is the most healthy behaviour?[/quote]

that image right here is arrogance at its best

you talk to ME about being reasonable and then...and then with such condescension and a little pat on the head and shove that crap at me like....like that's it? that's the fucking solution to everyone's problems? if the silly whatevers just go away and make their own whatever that absolves the rest of us any critical thought? it protects the feewings of all those poor souls who get that little twinge in their stomach the moment something they like is criticised

that image is everything wrong with peuso progressive disingenuous people, and the fact that you honestly don't see the issue with it goes to show a complete refusal to understand

and you wonder why people het pissed off[/quote]

well i know you dont like images but i think this is relevant

http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/826/635/8d7.png_large

the opinion from a person outside of this industry, a photographer, and why artists have the freadom to make the art they want, it doesnt matter if you feel offended by it

just think about it

the birth of a nation - racism film about the KKK
the triumph of will - nazi propaganda film
battleship potemkin - communist propaganda film
saturn devouring his son - very graphic painting

all controversial, all art, just because you dont agree with their message doesnt mean they have any less merit as pieces of art

there was this piece of art, it was a crucifix inside a bottle of piss, you know as a catholic that shit offends me, do i go around asking for the artist to censor himself? no, its his crucifix, his bottle and his piss (i hope), he is free to do whatever he wants with it, and if truthly it is art, well then its art that simply doesnt appeal to me

i asked you a very simple question, what behaviour do you think its more healthy?

i say having a brand new genre

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otome_game

with its own target demographic is beyond fantastic, instead of limiting the creativity of someone else, you create something new and contribute to the industry with your own dash of creativity

 

[Vault101]

While I think NK's presentation of the image wasn't as diplomatic as it could have been, I do have to inquire how pointing out that the best way to ensure you get the kind of media you want is to make it yourself is "everything wrong with psuedo progressive disingenuous people"

I may be missing some other context, as this thread got somewhat heated and I skimmed through the more ornery parts, but I hope you elaborate what you mean there for me.

While it's absolutely true you cannot wave a "do it yourself" card to alleviate all criticism, it's also a valid point to make that at a certain point, if no one is doing it and it makes you that upset, show them how it's done. If there's a genuine interest, then the consumer will happily throw money at you for fulfilling it, and that will show others that it's worth pursuing.

*deep breaths*

because more often than not its NEVER about the actual making of games, its a silencing technique plain and simple

the thing is there is no "endgame" here, criticism, even through the lense of feminism is important and wont (or shouldn't go away) if I think your game is sexist I will tell you about it, weather or not you take that on board is entirely up to you as the creator...telling me to go make my own games is beside the point

don't get me wrong, different kind of people making games is good, and it DOES happen because if people are gonna make games theyre gonna make games, and the kind of games we may not see...and that's great

its like they think all we do is sit around and foam at the mouth about thease kinds of things, thats not true...we all have a "line" as to what we will or won't enjoy,

ok how about this, i feel alineated when other people feel alineated

now what?

I don't know because that's gone into some loop I don't understand

[quote/]
werent you supposed to be rational?[/quote]
I get a little agitated when I keep smacking my head into the same points over and over again

[quote/]
did you seriously use the term "mansplain" unironically?

let me tell you something, what if i told a girl i dont want to hear her "girlsplanations" or a black man i dont want to hear his "blacksplanations"[/quote]
heres the thing though...[b/]its depends on whats being said[/b]

I go up to a bunch of black women and condescendingly tell them about their problems and what they're doing wrong "and if you only did X you wouldn't have an issue" me....an upper middle class white woman who has never met a black woman so much as LIVED as one...they'd probably roll their eyes and tell me to go away...as they should

doesn't mean I may not have a point, (I might) but these things can sometimes matter

same thing If a guy tells me I should be flattered next time I feel uncomfortable by another's advances...I'll probably tell him where to stick it

again its not *always* such a big factor but it *can* be

[quote/]if you dont accept people, if you dont stop looking for ways in which we are different, you will only perpetuate a [/quote]
you don't get to have it both ways

you don't get to be "enlightened" and "progressive" without casting a critical eye at things and where you might be coming from

so you can throw hippy dippy "circle of hate and intolerance" or quote martin luther king at me but I'm not buying it, ESPECIALLY if that image was your idea of a sound argument

[quote/]
i dont think so, ive heard it all

"they are the priviledged"

"it doesnt matter what they say"

"they are the reason you live soo poorly"
[/quote]
this might be hard to belive but I don't have anything against straight white males, only jerks

well i know you dont like images but i think this is relevant

http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/826/635/8d7.png_large

[quote/]the opinion from a person outside of this industry, a photographer, and why artists have the freadom to make the art they want, it doesnt matter if you feel offended by it

just think about it

the birth of a nation - racism film about the KKK
the triumph of will - nazi propaganda film
battleship potemkin - communist propaganda film
saturn devouring his son - very graphic painting

all controversial, all art, just because you dont agree with their message doesnt mean they have any less merit as pieces of art

there was this piece of art, it was a crucifix inside a bottle of piss, you know as a catholic that shit offends me, do i go around asking for the artist to censor himself? no, its his crucifix, his bottle and his piss (i hope), he is free to do whatever he wants with it, and if truthly it is art, well then its art that simply doesnt appeal to me[/quote]
see you seem to be implying things I never said, let me essentialy repeat what I said above

artists can do as they please, and I can criticise as they please, and they can change or NOT change as they please

you seem to take issue with the middle part

[quote/]i asked you a very simple question, what behaviour do you think its more healthy?[/quote]
condescension again...nice

I don't actually sit around foaming at the mouth over thease things I merely state my opinion. Nothing more nothing less, we criticise other art, that's a good thing...why are games special?


[quote/] instead of limiting the creativity of someone else[/quote]

I find it utterly baffling you think ANY "limiting of creativy" comes from a fictional bunch of internet femenazis...and you know...not the comcerial whims of the AAA industry

utterly baffling

also

NO ONE EVER SAID THAT

 

[Areloch]

While I think NK's presentation of the image wasn't as diplomatic as it could have been, I do have to inquire how pointing out that the best way to ensure you get the kind of media you want is to make it yourself is "everything wrong with psuedo progressive disingenuous people"

I may be missing some other context, as this thread got somewhat heated and I skimmed through the more ornery parts, but I hope you elaborate what you mean there for me.

While it's absolutely true you cannot wave a "do it yourself" card to alleviate all criticism, it's also a valid point to make that at a certain point, if no one is doing it and it makes you that upset, show them how it's done. If there's a genuine interest, then the consumer will happily throw money at you for fulfilling it, and that will show others that it's worth pursuing.

*deep breaths*

because more often than not its NEVER about the actual making of games, its a silencing technique plain and simple

the thing is there is no "endgame" here, criticism, even through the lense of feminism is important and wont (or shouldn't go away) if I think your game is sexist I will tell you about it, weather or not you take that on board is entirely up to you as the creator...telling me to go make my own games is beside the point

don't get me wrong, different kind of people making games is good, and it DOES happen because if people are gonna make games theyre gonna make games, and the kind of games we may not see...and that's great

its like they think all we do is sit around and foam at the mouth about thease kinds of things, thats not true...we all have a "line" as to what we will or won't enjoy,

That's a fair point.

I would like to believe that MOST people that suggest making their own aren't being disingenuous about it, but I know better than to assume everyone is making a legitimate suggestion.

I agree that criticism is absolutely a good thing - when done constructively. If you feel a game is sexist and elaborate as to why, then that it indeed is up to the developer to take to heart. If they don't, then that is the decision they made.

The other side, of course, are the nonconstructive people, who's points start and end with "This is sexist". If that is the full extent of their input, I'm hard pressed to believe there's a better response to it (other than 'you're not obligated to play it') is to say "well, then show me how it should be done".

But I do agree with you that using "make a game yourself" as a cudgel to end criticism in general is foolish and detrimental to everyone involved.

Snip.

Come now. While I do believe you do have a valid point to make, I feel you're beginning to get overly aggressive. It doesn't make the people you're responding to any more receptive. I would suggest taking a step back, and then coming back with a fresh head to make your point again.

Shouting matches never convince anyone.

 

[DM Gray]

I cant believe that people telling others they are progressive or care about inclusion can find NK's last few posts offensive.
Japanese women made a game for themselves.
Western women decided it as sexist.
That PROVES that a small minority of western women are just TRYING to be offended by things, and their assertions that "only men do it" are absurd.

Why not support or make their own games?
Why not say "I do not like it" instead of "it is sexist"
You are behaving like the suggestion or the criticism is a form of bloody oppression...

 

[Areloch]

Why not support or make their own games?
Why not say "I do not like it" instead of "it is sexist"
You are behaving like the suggestion or the criticism is a form of bloody oppression...

To be fair, it is also a valid point that not everyone can actually make their own games.

While I do believe in the "show me how it is done" approach, it's also completely unreasonable to assume a single working mom that wishes to play games that interests her would have the free time to build a game herself from scratch - to use a hypothetical. Using the suggestion to make their own as a shield from all criticism is just as bad. Not to necessarily imply that's what's happening, but as a general idea.

Why not say "I do not like it" instead of "it is sexist"

I agree. I think people would get much better responses from developers if they actually articulated their critiques, as opposed to saying "sexism" and dropping the microphone.

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

Snip.

Come now. While I do believe you do have a valid point to make, I feel you're beginning to get overly aggressive. It doesn't make the people you're responding to any more receptive. I would suggest taking a step back, and then coming back with a fresh head to make your point again.

Shouting matches never convince anyone.

haha man, im real sorry if i came off like that, im actually trying to respond in the most calm way possible, i was already mocked, called a bigot and retarded here

but i dont want this to devolve into a pointless insult war

i understand the need for more equality, but i believe the best way to achieve that is stop looking at what makes us different and concentrate on what makes us similar

i also understand people wanting more games aimed at them but, the answer to that is painfully simple, make those kind of games, dont force artists to change their vision

 

[Vault101]

I would like to believe that MOST people that suggest making their own aren't being disingenuous about it, but I know better than to assume everyone is making a legitimate suggestion.

I've been on this carousel long enough to not be that hopeful....maybe misguided at best


[quote/]The other side, of course, are the nonconstructive people, who's points start and end with "This is sexist". If that is the full extent of their input, I'm hard pressed to believe there's a better response to it (other than 'you're not obligated to play it') is to say "well, then show me how it should be done".[/quote]
well that's why people need to explain themselves...and even then it goes back to what I said about personal lines

I enjoy Eminem even though I know he can be mysoganistic and homophobic in his lyrics (and in his case I don't think I can dismiss it based on the fact that par for the coarse in hip hop) now if someone could not listen to him because of that then that's fine, if I tell them theyre being stupid and "its just an act" that's not fine

I cant believe that people telling others they are progressive or care about inclusion can find NK's last few posts offensive.
Japanese women made a game for themselves.
Western women decided it as sexist.
That PROVES that a small minority of western women are just TRYING to be offended by things, and their assertions that "only men do it" are absurd.
...

dat logic...

i understand the need for more equality, but i believe the best way to achieve that is stop looking at what makes us different and concentrate on what makes us similar

THIS DOES NOT [b/]MEAN[/b] ANYTHING

really

its meaningless fluff

[quote/]i also understand people wanting more games aimed at them but, the answer to that is painfully simple, make those kind of games, dont force artists to change their vision[/quote]
I really don't think you do....

1. the commercial demands of mainstream entertainment industry's already force artists to change/adjust their vision and has been the biggest factor in that regard, its the reason we have less female protagonists

2.telling people to make their own games is and has always been beside the point, again, there is no end game here, feminism is not over, racism still exists and the human race has not "stopped" evolving

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

ok how about this, i feel alineated when other people feel alineated

now what?

I don't know because that's gone into some loop I don't understand

exactly it means nothing, so what if some people feel alineated? not everyone feels alineated

[quote/]
werent you supposed to be rational?

I get a little agitated when I keep smacking my head into the same points over and over again [/quote]

then just say "i already addressed this"

mocking the other party wont get you anywhere

[quote/]
did you seriously use the term "mansplain" unironically?

let me tell you something, what if i told a girl i dont want to hear her "girlsplanations" or a black man i dont want to hear his "blacksplanations"

heres the thing though...[b/]its depends on whats being said[/b][/quote]

you are disregarding what im saying because im a man, is that not discrimination?

I go up to a bunch of black women and condescendingly tell them about their problems and what they're doing wrong "and if you only did X you wouldn't have an issue" me....an upper middle class white woman who has never met a black woman so much as LIVED as one...they'd probably roll their eyes and tell me to go away...as they should

doesn't mean I may not have a point, (I might) but these things can sometimes matter

so you are ashamed of your race/position, that cant be healthy

if your points are valid why should your race matter?

same thing If a guy tells me I should be flattered next time I feel uncomfortable by another's advances...I'll probably tell him where to stick it

again its not *always* such a big factor but it *can* be

only if you let it be a big factor, again because you overthink things like race, atleast in my opinion

[quote/]if you dont accept people, if you dont stop looking for ways in which we are different, you will only perpetuate a

you don't get to have it both ways

you don't get to be "enlightened" and "progressive" without casting a critical eye at things and where you might be coming from

so you can throw hippy dippy "circle of hate and intolerance" or quote martin luther king at me but I'm not buying it, ESPECIALLY if that image was your idea of a sound argument [/quote]

is not an image i think its simple logic, its the personal point of view ive developed over the years based both on the tolerance and intolerance i see in my country, race didnt divide us, income did, when some people started blaming those in better economical position of being the root of all problems, hate lies and abuses

[quote/]
i dont think so, ive heard it all

"they are the priviledged"

"it doesnt matter what they say"

"they are the reason you live soo poorly"

this might be hard to belive but I don't have anything against straight white males, only jerks [/quote]

well then stop dismissing the argument of men as "mansplaining" seriously it does nothing to attract new friends, and while i didnt take offense, others might

well i know you dont like images but i think this is relevant

http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/826/635/8d7.png_large

[quote/]the opinion from a person outside of this industry, a photographer, and why artists have the freadom to make the art they want, it doesnt matter if you feel offended by it

just think about it

the birth of a nation - racism film about the KKK
the triumph of will - nazi propaganda film
battleship potemkin - communist propaganda film
saturn devouring his son - very graphic painting

all controversial, all art, just because you dont agree with their message doesnt mean they have any less merit as pieces of art

there was this piece of art, it was a crucifix inside a bottle of piss, you know as a catholic that shit offends me, do i go around asking for the artist to censor himself? no, its his crucifix, his bottle and his piss (i hope), he is free to do whatever he wants with it, and if truthly it is art, well then its art that simply doesnt appeal to me

see you seem to be implying things I never said, let me essentialy repeat what I said above

artists can do as they please, and I can criticise as they please, and they can change or NOT change as they please

you seem to take issue with the middle part

[quote/]i asked you a very simple question, what behaviour do you think its more healthy?[/quote]
condescension again...nice

I don't actually sit around foaming at the mouth over thease things I merely state my opinion. Nothing more nothing less, we criticise other art, that's a good thing...why are games special?[/quote]

i think a work of art should be critized based on its merits as art, not on whenever it follows a certain political point of view or not

[quote/] instead of limiting the creativity of someone else

I find it utterly baffling you think ANY "limiting of creativy" comes from a fictional bunch of internet femenazis...and you know...not the comcerial whims of the AAA industry

utterly baffling

also

NO ONE EVER SAID THAT[/quote]

you sure?

http://orogion.deviantart.com/journal/Save-the-Boob-plate-380891149

a developer of divinity original sin, forced to redesign one of his characters because some people didnt like bikini armor

i dont support insults or shaming of devs because of their artistics decisions, now if a game fails as a game, by all means critize that

if there is truthly an audience for all those different kinds of characters you want, the market should eventually speak for itself dont you think?

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

i understand the need for more equality, but i believe the best way to achieve that is stop looking at what makes us different and concentrate on what makes us similar

THIS DOES NOT [b/]MEAN[/b] ANYTHING

really

its meaningless fluff

i think it does

[quote/]i also understand people wanting more games aimed at them but, the answer to that is painfully simple, make those kind of games, dont force artists to change their vision

I really don't think you do....

1. the commercial demands of mainstream entertainment industry's already force artists to change/adjust their vision and has been the biggest factor in that regard, its the reason we have less female protagonists

2.telling people to make their own games is and has always been beside the point, again, there is no end game here, feminism is not over, racism still exists and the human race has not "stopped" evolving[/quote]

1- well if there is a market for female characters we should eventually see a strong demand for them dont you think?

2- i dont get your point here, im saying if you want your gender/race/sexual orientation to be better represented in video games you could comaplain about it... or do something about it

im kinda bummed about a certain strategy subgenre i feel is not represented well enough, so im making my own game about that subgenre, see? this is how you change things

 

[Skatologist]

its good you don't feel alienated, but that doesn't mean some don't

I know I haven't faced much because I don't apparently "act ethnic" of any of the races of that make me up, but i know I still see it, both towards me and others. It can easily be possible he hasn't seen anything thrown his way in terms of racism, especially with his country's situation. I just don't understand why he is essentially burning the bridge for everyone else by saying "I'm not white and I haven't been discriminated against, so racism doesn't exist/isn't a huge problem" when in fact he should just say "isn't a huge problem to me, under my circumstances, but it may be to others". For me, his argument is equivalent of saying some slaves of 1800s Georgia really did enjoy their lives of forced servitude and lack of human rights and decency in exchange for essentially being treated like livestock, so we should respect their opinions as much as the slaves who wanted to be free and not think of them as mind-washed or anything else for that matter.

oh oh no no sorry

I should go away, I should stop talking...we should all go the fuck away shouldn't we?

because everytime someone says "make your own games" every time someone pulls a "what about the menz" ever time someone tries to mansplain the fact that we all have an eaqual share of the oppression pie that's what they are saying

that's what YOU are saying, you don't want us to be reasonable, you want us to be silent

yeah, no your right, I should stop hurting peoples feelings by being critical of media

Yeah, the silence thing you brought up seems like what a lot of people want, specifically anti feminist gamers. The argument of "don't talk about the problem and it will go away" seems to be a favorite amongst a lot of people who just don't care about change enough to even admit they want it. He may bring up #gamergate as a counter, to that I'll say, the literal conspiracy theory needs proper legs before it can actually stand. If people are going to make all SJWs and feminists apart of it like I see at least a few twitter users and others do, then I see the theory as no better than the one with chemicals in the water making people sterile and gay. Conspiracies usually imply an orchestrated attack or plan, most of this seems as orchestrated as a train wreck.

NO ONE IS SAYING THAT

and there you go again, eather its equality for everyone or its artistic integrity....its the same thing in the end, an utter refusal to understand or acknowledge why people feel that way


no no its always something else...its this...its that let me quote martin luther king! let me show you the light of all equality you silly female, let me tell you why you should shut up but I'll be nice about it!

Well, not no one , but it definitely isn't made by either you or me, or most here. Me coming across things that offend me or others doesn't license banning, but instead criticism, even for things I love. I also remember not all criticism can stand/is valid, so my gut reaction isn't "OMG, you're overly offended!", it's more so just a polite "You may be a bit off on your analysis, my opinion is ..." and recognize analysis isn't 100% right for anything. There can be dozens of themes garned from just 1 short story or poem.

that image right here is arrogance at its best

you talk to ME about being reasonable and then...and then with such condescension and a little pat on the head and shove that crap at me like....like that's it? that's the fucking solution to everyone's problems? if the silly whatevers just go away and make their own whatever that absolves the rest of us any critical thought? it protects the feewings of all those poor souls who get that little twinge in their stomach the moment something they like is criticised

that image is everything wrong with peuso progressive disingenuous people, and the fact that you honestly don't see the issue with it goes to show a complete refusal to understand

and you wonder why people het pissed off

Was that image oversimplified propaganda? Yes. Gives no historical/cultural context? Yes. Made to silence opposition by essentially using the "stop whining!" argument? Oh you better believe YES!

 

[Vault101]

i think it does

it doesn't, you keep parroting the same thing over and over

and yet you refuse to even look at anything critically

[quote/]
1- well if there is a market for female characters we should eventually see a strong demand for them dont you think?[/quote]
so uh...all those scary femenazis on the internet your so scared of...they don't represent a "strong demnd"?

anyway so now we are in a circle situation, we think people don't want female protagonist, we don't make them...round and round it goes

we know for a fact developers are facing an uphill battle should they want to make a non optional female protagonist because of what publishers think, play it safe....we all know this, its not secret

we also know as far as movies go female let projects are not box office poison, make something good enough people will like, now games might be a little different from movies...but I think the audience is large enough


[quote/]2- i dont get your point here, im saying if you want your gender/race/sexual orientation to be better represented in video games you could comaplain about it... or do something about it[/quote]
"complaing" is actually a valid part of the process...again we critique our culture, and "doing something about it" is not so cut and dry

[quote/]im kinda bummed about a certain strategy subgenre i feel is not represented well enough, so im making my own game about that subgenre, see? this is how you change things[/quote]
except NOBDY tells anyone to do that when it comes up in gamign discussion

exactly it means nothing, so what if some people feel alineated? not everyone feels alienated

so what? the people who do are wrong? should shut up?

[quote/]
so you are ashamed of your race/position, that cant be healthy[/quote]you'vr got to be doing this on purpose...I tried to explain it.

I did not grow up a black woman, there are aspects of society that affect black women I didn't even know about but you know what? I read about those aspects and instead of getting all defensive and shit (because waaah! the world revoles around me!) I learned about and understood it, and I'm better for it

[quote/]if your points are valid why should your race matter?[/quote]
because its one of the many things that make up your experiences and attitude of the world

I don't know what its like to come from a dysfunctional family, or to live in an unsafe country, or to never have enough food or to have parents the didn't value education, this colors my perception of [b/]certain topics[/b] and it would be very easy for me to pull a just world fallacy and act like all the problems of the poor are their own fault (because what a comforting thought that would be)

only if you let it be a big factor, again because you overthink things like race, at least in my opinion

aahhhh so now I'm overthinking things, another hand wave

and you simplify everything to avoid critical thought

[quote/]
i dont think so, ive heard it all

"they are the priviledged"[/quote]
privaligde is actually a thing I've tried to explain off hand in this whole thing...though I never used the word because you start using certain words people freak out

[quote/]"it doesnt matter what they say"[/quote]
that depeeeeeeendssss!!!

[quote/]"they are the reason you live soo poorly"
[/quote]
again who and the why is more complicated than that


[quote/]well then stop dismissing the argument of men as "mansplaining" seriously it does nothing to attract new friends, and while i didnt take offense, others might[/quote]
oh....oh I'm sorry I'm being mean aren't I?

I disagree (and sometimes dismiss) arguments based on whats being said first and foremost....what's being said can come from a personas background,

in other words you want to ask a female centric woman you might do well to ask...you know...a woman


[quote/]
i think a work of art should be critized based on its merits as art, not on whenever it follows a certain political point of view or not[/quote]
it all goes hand in hand

what an artist is trying to get across, what the audience interprets, how art affects us and our culture its all related and important

you can actually take thease things into account while still enjoying them....I should know..I like hip hop

Birth of a nation paints a picture of a racist as fuck society, we know this, we accept this, no one defends it, just just accept it for its historical context and significance



[quote/]
you sure?

http://orogion.deviantart.com/journal/Save-the-Boob-plate-380891149

a developer of divinity original sin, forced to redesign one of his characters because some people didnt like bikini armor

i dont support insults or shaming of devs because of their artistics decisions, now if a game fails as a game, by all means critize that
[/quote]

the devs chose to change it, if they wanted they could have stuck to their guns....

.....its not like this was a commercial issue

oh hey about "strong demand" again....

 

[Something Amyss]

if there is truthly an audience for all those different kinds of characters you want, the market should eventually speak for itself dont you think?

You mean aside from the people online speaking for it that you actively dismiss and talk down to?

It might also show up in marketing, except for the active exclusion we've seen. Or the way publishers have reduced female roles. Weird how the "censorship bad!" crowd was silent when that was making news stories.

Of course, the public can speak for itself. It's not like games with female protagonists see significantly less marketing than those with male protagonists or anything. Well, except that's exactly what happens.

Funny thing about the free market is it's free to ignore as many cues as it wants.

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

i think it does

it doesn't, you keep parroting the same thing over and over

and yet you refuse to even look at anything critically

i do, like i said, i speak from experience

[quote/]
1- well if there is a market for female characters we should eventually see a strong demand for them dont you think?

so uh...all those scary femenazis on the internet your so scared of...they don't represent a "strong demnd"? [/quote]

then they should make their own games, that appeal to their tastes and tastes of people similar to them, and make a lot of money

thats the point of borderline sabotaging existing fans or shaming a developer for his/her artistics choices?[/quote]

anyway so now we are in a circle situation, we think people don't want female protagonist, we don't make them...round and round it goes

we know for a fact developers are facing an uphill battle should they want to make a non optional female protagonist because of what publishers think, play it safe....we all know this, its not secret

look the market has shown us time and time again how this is solved, someone takes the first step

"adventure games are dead"

telltale games released the walking dead adventure game series

"difficult games are dead"

team meat releases super meat boy and from software releases demon's souls

etc

if theres a market, sucess is to be expected

we also know as far as movies go female let projects are not box office poison, make something good enough people will like, now games might be a little different from movies...but I think the audience is large enough

yes, the problem comes when someone tells the director terminator should be a woman because someone wants a woman on a leading role, again compromising the decisions of the artists

[quote/]2- i dont get your point here, im saying if you want your gender/race/sexual orientation to be better represented in video games you could comaplain about it... or do something about it

"complaing" is actually a valid part of the process...again we critique our culture, and "doing something about it" is not so cut and dry [/quote]

but again you are basically shaming artists for their artistic decisions, not the quality of their work, its better and more productive to create

[quote/]im kinda bummed about a certain strategy subgenre i feel is not represented well enough, so im making my own game about that subgenre, see? this is how you change things

except NOBDY tells anyone to do that when it comes up in gamign discussion[/quote]

im doing it right now arent i?

exactly it means nothing, so what if some people feel alineated? not everyone feels alienated

so what? the people who do are wrong? should shut up?

and what about the people who arent and are fine the way things are? what makes their feelings any less important?

[quote/]
so you are ashamed of your race/position, that cant be healthy

you'vr got to be doing this on purpose...I tried to explain it.

I did not grow up a black woman, there are aspects of society that affect black women I didn't even know about but you know what? I read about those aspects and instead of getting all defensive and shit (because waaah! the world revoles around me!) I learned about and understood it, and I'm better for it

[quote/]if your points are valid why should your race matter?[/quote]
because its one of the many things that make up your experiences and attitude of the world [/quote]

only if you let it make up your experiences and attitude of the world

we dont do that over here, and i think it works great

I don't know what its like to come from a dysfunctional family, or to live in an unsafe country, or to never have enough food or to have parents the didn't value education, this colors my perception of [b/]certain topics[/b] and it would be very easy for me to pull a just world fallacy and act like all the problems of the poor are their own fault (because what a comforting thought that would be)

to argue someones opinion is less valid because of that person's origin is also a fallacy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

aahhhh so now I'm overthinking things, another hand wave

and you simplify everything to avoid critical thought

once again i base my arguments in my experience in my country, we dont care about race, and theres no racism here

i mean you cant argue it cant work, heres the counter example

privaligde is actually a thing I've tried to explain off hand in this whole thing...though I never used the word because you start using certain words people freak out

becuase its something that hardly matters, honestly this kind of talk has only made things infinitely worse in my country

that depeeeeeeendssss!!!

no, a good argument doesnt depends on one person's race/gender/sexual orientation

again who and the why is more complicated than that

im just echoing what i hear the government say, stuff that shares some similarities with the stuff advocates of social justice say

and ive seen the end result of that kind of thinking

oh....oh I'm sorry I'm being mean aren't I?

I disagree (and sometimes dismiss) arguments based on whats being said first and foremost....what's being said can come from a personas background,

in other words you want to ask a female centric woman you might do well to ask...you know...a woman

im not saying a woman wont generally answer the question better, that doesnt mean the answer of a man will always be dismissable

it all goes hand in hand

what an artist is trying to get across, what the audience interprets, how art affects us and our culture its all related and important

you can actually take thease things into account while still enjoying them....I should know..I like hip hop

Birth of a nation paints a picture of a racist as fuck society, we know this, we accept this, no one defends it, just just accept it for its historical context and significance

nope, for instance i really dislike the furry artstyle, and yet i cant argue dust an elyssian tail is less of a game because of it, it MIGHT alineate possible customers because of it but it wont be a worse piece of work

likewise the birth of a nation is often complimented for its innovative film techniques (at the time), the fact its a very racist film does not give it any less merit as a piece of art

[quote/]
you sure?

http://orogion.deviantart.com/journal/Save-the-Boob-plate-380891149

a developer of divinity original sin, forced to redesign one of his characters because some people didnt like bikini armor

i dont support insults or shaming of devs because of their artistics decisions, now if a game fails as a game, by all means critize that

the devs chose to change it, if they wanted they could have stuck to their guns....

.....its not like this was a commercial issue

oh hey about "strong demand" again....[/quote]

more like people shaming and insulting the dev for his artistic decisions, thats not demand, thats harassment

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

if there is truthly an audience for all those different kinds of characters you want, the market should eventually speak for itself dont you think?

You mean aside from the people online speaking for it that you actively dismiss and talk down to?

It might also show up in marketing, except for the active exclusion we've seen. Or the way publishers have reduced female roles. Weird how the "censorship bad!" crowd was silent when that was making news stories.

Of course, the public can speak for itself. It's not like games with female protagonists see significantly less marketing than those with male protagonists or anything. Well, except that's exactly what happens.

Funny thing about the free market is it's free to ignore as many cues as it wants.

on the contrary, im saying, "make the games you want"

i think its a solution that satisfies most people

im not talking down to nobody, atleast its not my intention i apologize if i came off that way, im simply trying to be respectful

a limited marketing campaign can affect a game's sales, true, but its not the ultimate deciding factor for success, plenty of games have become great successes via word of mouth alone, divinity original sin, amnesia, minecraft, FTL, etc

 

[Vault101]

i do, like i said, i speak from experience

yeah your experience

you said yourself,

[quote/]and what about the people who arent and are fine the way things are? what makes their feelings any less important?[/quote]

for all this talk of being about equality and progressivness its a big lie....
because you don't care..you said it just now, even if you can acknowledge there is disparity you do not give one solitary fig about how anyone feels outside your viewpoint, you view it as a threat

its not a threat, games with more variety is good for everyone....what the fuck do you think I've been doing the whole time? only play games that give me the option? HA! I have preferences aside from the gender of the protagonist you know

your precious games won't go away

the world will not drown in the tears of all those artist who you claim to speak for...

[quote/]more like people shaming and insulting the dev for his artistic decisions, thats not demand, thats harassment
[/quote]

are you an artist? because if someone criticised my work for a similar reason I'd actually you know...listen...and maybe learn something

or not

!

[quote/]no, a good argument doesnt depends on one person's race/gender/sexual orientation[/quote]
I meant ti depends on whats being said

I mean for fuck sake dude you interpreted me as ackowelging I may not be the all white all enlightened master of the universe as hating my own race? what the actual fuck? I fail to see what the alternative to that would be
again you want us to go away


[quote/]once again i base my arguments in my experience in my country, we dont care about race, and theres no racism here[/quote]
*snrrrrrrrk* keep dreaming

[quote/]likewise the birth of a nation is often complimented for its innovative film techniques (at the time), the fact its a very racist film does not give it any less merit as a piece of art[/quote]
well sure....though you might feel differently about it if you were a black American..but hey having different views on art is fine

 

[Vault101]

For me, his argument is equivalent of saying some slaves of 1800s Georgia really did enjoy their lives of forced servitude and lack of human rights and decency in exchange for essentially being treated like livestock, so we should respect their opinions as much as the slaves who wanted to be free and not think of them as mind-washed or anything else for that matter.

yeah

although for me that's sticky territory as I'm not sure I could put forward the same idea without feeling like I'm telling minorites how to feel...

[quote/]Was that image oversimplified propaganda? Yes. Gives no historical/cultural context? Yes. Made to silence opposition by essentially using the "stop whining!" argument? Oh you better believe YES![/quote]
ugghh I get so tried sometimes...

 

[Alien1375]

[/quote]erm.....why are you upset? how was this comic offense?[/quote]

I'm not upset. I just made a joke.

[/quote] Alien1375 received a warning for this post. Click here to show the post[/quote]

I rest my case.

 

[mecegirl]

its good you don't feel alienated, but that doesn't mean some don't

I know I haven't faced much because I don't apparently "act ethnic" of any of the races of that make me up, but i know I still see it, both towards me and others. It can easily be possible he hasn't seen anything thrown his way in terms of racism, especially with his country's situation. I just don't understand why he is essentially burning the bridge for everyone else by saying "I'm not white and I haven't been discriminated against, so racism doesn't exist/isn't a huge problem" when in fact he should just say "isn't a huge problem to me, under my circumstances, but it may be to others". For me, his argument is equivalent of saying some slaves of 1800s Georgia really did enjoy their lives of forced servitude and lack of human rights and decency in exchange for essentially being treated like livestock, so we should respect their opinions as much as the slaves who wanted to be free and not think of them as mind-washed or anything else for that matter. With your slavery example we actually should respect both opinions. Of course the problem isn't the opinion, its slavery. The problem is that there is no choice. Owning someone like that without their consent is morally wrong. It doesn't matter if some slaves liked it, it was still morally wrong to force the ones who didn't to stay. A perfect situation would be to let those who really wanted to stay to stay and to let to rest go.

After the civil war some slaves did stay and work on plantations. Not for free necessarily(though I doubt that they were compensated much back then)but for some they didn't really have anywhere else to go or other skills. That had unfortunately become the only type of work that they knew how to do.

Kangaroo's issue is that they are not accounting for the cultural differences between North and South America. They are not from North America so their opinion has no authority as to whether or not racism exists in North America(or any other country). Even a White person from North America would have a better idea of what racism is like in North America simply because they live in North America. Though for the record, I am Black and have a few friends who are from various countries in South America. From what they tell me they were treated worse up here than how they are treated back home. I've heard similar things from my African friends. They never really considered themselves to be "Black" or understood what it was like to consider racial differences until they moved here and noticed that some people treated them differently.

North and South America developed different attitudes towards race because the ethnic, social, and economic factors were different. To be brief, the English liked to keep the races as separate as possible. And it was used as a means to keep "order". Sometimes biracial children would gain status but that only lasted as far as their White parent's influence, and if no one noticed that they were biracial. For a while no one really enforced the separation in fear of incriminating themselves. But soon one drop rules(actual codified laws like Virgina's Racial Integrity Act of 1924) came into effect as well as laws banning interracial marriage. Things snowballed from there.

Span and Portugal...well, things were different with them and the lands that they colonized. But this would explain it a lot better than I can.http://www.historians.org/publicati...teaching-the-history-of-race-in-latin-americaBut in short racial mixing happened a bit more often in the South,and had a certain level of acceptance. Fast forward to present day and its not wonder that their concept of race is less strict to down right nonexistent in comparison to ours.

But as for the "Just make your own" advice. It's pretty pointless advice. I guarantee you all that somewhere someone who is a member of an underrepresented group is trying to make a video game. Or has made a video game. But because they don't have the money that big time publishers have there isn't enough advertizing to give that game a proper following. Things are thankfully changing now because of kickstarter and Steam. And such games being made currently have a better chance. So it's not like folks need to be told "make your own". The difference of course is that those people actually know how to make video games. So to say "make your own" to most people is counter productive. What are they to do? Go back to college in order to learn how to make a video game? No. All they can do is put the word out about what they want and wait for a product to appear that suits their tastes.

Besides, in North America at least we've seen what happens when people "make their own" it gets ghettoized. It never becomes fully accepted into the "mainstream" consciousness because it becomes marked as for "insert group here" people. And unfortunately gets regarded as a lesser product because of the social biases that mark their creators as lesser people. Meanwhile mainstream media gets accepted as for everyone to consume despite not being diverse enough to cater to everyone. And the same folks spouting "Well they should just make their own," get all bent out of shape when someone does. For example, the complaints about publications like Essence magazine and TV stations like BET being only for Black people.

 

[DM Gray]

snipped.

Why not say "I do not like it" instead of "it is sexist"

I agree. I think people would get much better responses from developers if they actually articulated their critiques, as opposed to saying "sexism" and dropping the microphone.

That's not happening though.
Especially not by the majority of those pretending to be moderates while entirely dismissing/undermining and condescending those opposed to their view.
According to these people the accusations of misogyny and complete suppression of different opinions constitutes progress.

I think it constituted bigots excusing their own bigotry because they feel it is justified.

It's sad, because the VAST majority of those supporting gamergate, myself included, are delighted by the prospect of more diversity and have never had a problem with inclusion (I've literally been enticing people to play games for decades, and champion "gamification" in schools. So misogynist of me to want people to enjoy the games they want to enjoy without prejudice or judgement; male or female)
The lunatics have been allowed to run the asylum, and some people are still convinced that everything is awesome. Nothing to see.