The Fast Track To Internet Infamy

[NuclearKangaroo]

i do, like i said, i speak from experience

yeah your experience

you said yourself,

in my experience, in a country where this approach works

[quote/]and what about the people who arent and are fine the way things are? what makes their feelings any less important?

for all this talk of being about equality and progressivness its a big lie....
because you don't care..you said it just now, even if you can acknowledge there is disparity you do not give one solitary fig about how anyone feels outside your viewpoint, you view it as a threat

its not a threat, games with more variety is good for everyone....what the fuck do you think I've been doing the whole time? only play games that give me the option? HA! I have preferences aside from the gender of the protagonist you know

your precious games won't go away

the world will not drown in the tears of all those artist who you claim to speak for... [/quote]

i never said anything even similar, i said, what makes one claim more valid than the other?

how is limiting an artist's vision more variety?

[quote/]more like people shaming and insulting the dev for his artistic decisions, thats not demand, thats harassment

are you an artist? because if someone criticised my work for a similar reason I'd actually you know...listen...and maybe learn something

or not

! [/quote]

you are going to listen to insults and harassment?

[quote/]no, a good argument doesnt depends on one person's race/gender/sexual orientation

I meant ti depends on whats being said

I mean for fuck sake dude you interpreted me as ackowelging I may not be the all white all enlightened master of the universe as hating my own race? what the actual fuck? I fail to see what the alternative to that would be
again you want us to go away[/quote]

you far you are the only one who speaks like is being threatened

consider the following

you are in a discussion about racism with 2 people behind 2 doors, both argue the exact same thing

both doors open and one person turns out to be white and the other turns out to be black, did opening the door invalidate the argument of either person, despite the fact they both said the exact same thing?

[quote/]once again i base my arguments in my experience in my country, we dont care about race, and theres no racism here

*snrrrrrrrk* keep dreaming [/quote]

i repeat, werent you supposed to be rational?

[quote/]likewise the birth of a nation is often complimented for its innovative film techniques (at the time), the fact its a very racist film does not give it any less merit as a piece of art

well sure....though you might feel differently about it if you were a black American..but hey having different views on art is fine[/quote]

i presented you with an example of a piece of art that deeply insults me

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piss_Christ

im a christian catholic, this shit is offensive to me, but i wont ask the artist to censor himself, you know what i will do instead? turn around, cuz thats simply art that doesnt appeal to me

 

[Falling_v1legacy]

i think a work of art should be critized based on its merits as art, not on whenever it follows a certain political point of view or not

So if I said the portrayal of women in videogames is largely inartful, you would be fine with that? Because by and large, I think that is true. I cannot know for certain if they are being lazy with their potrayals, but a lot of represenations seem to lack creativity. Contrary to this idea of 'artistic vision' many games have an unexamined default: shallow or peripheral characterizations for their females. In other words, shoddy characterization is bad art, and I would like to see much better art more consistently. I would like to see the bar raised- for male and female characters, certainly. But considering how substandard female characterization is in aggregate, I would like to see the bar raised there specifically.

 

[Amir Kondori]

SJW for a brief minute meant people who post on tumblr that having sex with your girlfriend after you've both had two beers is rape.
Now SJW means "person I don't like and disagree with".

 

[Vault101]

in my experience, in a country where this approach works

racism is not a switch you just "turn on and off" by pretending is doesn't exist...much like sexism doesn't go away if you pretend it doesn't exist

that kind of thing comes through understanding, and understanding means sometimes you actually have to (god forbid) cast a critical eye at yourself, that does not mean "hating" your own race

but of coarse one thing we forgot here is the fact that the racism issues I'm thinking of a largely American based whose history and vulture are I imagine rather different from your country, so really you can't apply the same "thing" there (whatever the hell that was)

[quote/]
i never said anything even similar, i said, what makes one claim more valid than the other?[/quote]
when one of them is sunk in circle logic, refusal to listen and a very strong bias...but I digress

[quote/]how is limiting an artist's vision more variety?[/quote]with respect I feel you are now being obtuse....

this isn't about "limiting an artists vision" (assuming that vision wasn't commercially influenced in the first place...a little issue you seem hell bent on ignoring)

if anything this is the opposite, if we make it OK to make games that Have female protagonists or different kinds in the mainstream game space them BAM more variety, right now the one notable female led game only exists because its from a long standing franchise, (Tomb Radier) Bioshock Infinite didn't even put Elizabeth on the cover....a friggen gaming magazine from somewhere in europor [/i]photshoped Ellie out[/I]

[quote/]
you are going to listen to insults and harassment?[/quote]
criticism is not insults and harassment...its [I/]important[/I] yes not all criticism is valid, that's why its up to the artist to tell the difference between valid and constructive criticism and pointless negativity....if they can't handle that they are in the wrong business

[quote/]
you far you are the only one who speaks like is being threatened[/quote]
no...just frustrated

[quote/]consider the following

you are in a discussion about racism with 2 people behind 2 doors, both argue the exact same thing

both doors open and one person turns out to be white and the other turns out to be black, did opening the door invalidate the argument of either person, despite the fact they both said the exact same thing?[/quote]
if you actually read what I said

it depends on what they are SAYING first and foremost, so no





[quote/]

i presented you with an example of a piece of art that deeply insults me

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piss_Christ

im a christian catholic, this shit is offensive to me,[/quote]
you just refered to it as shit

stop harassing the artist [/sarcasm]


[quote/]but i wont ask the artist to censor himself, you know what i will do instead? turn around, cuz thats simply art that doesnt appeal to me[/quote]

well shit...and here I was plying GTA for 2 hours every night working myself into a rage asurism when all I had to do was not play it? [/sarcasm]

yeah so what? the fact you let it be doesn't change what you think...you just told me what you thought...and other people should be able to say the same thing, even in a more open space (like I don't know...a series of youtube videos?) you wouldn't send that artist rape or death threats would you?

and you know if MOST and I mean MOST mainstream media commonly had offensive depictions of Catholicism you probably wouldn't nod and smile if people tond you to go away, told you to be nice, told you to make your own pro-catholic art or painted you as the antichrist for dare pointing such a thing out

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

racism is not a switch you just "turn on and off" by pretending is doesn't exist...much like sexism doesn't go away if you pretend it doesn't exist

that kind of thing comes through understanding, and understanding means sometimes you actually have to (god forbid) cast a critical eye at yourself, that does not mean "hating" your own race

but of coarse one thing we forgot here is the fact that the racism issues I'm thinking of a largely American based whose history and vulture are I imagine rather different from your country, so really you can't apply the same "thing" there (whatever the hell that was)

maybe racism is perpetuated in your country because you fellas keep making a big deal about it, thats my point

i never said racism is a switch, i in fact said you might not live to see it disappear, but you might be delaying its eventual destruction by giving race way more importance than it deserves

when one of them is sunk in circle logic, refusal to listen and a very strong bias...but I digress

yes you disgress, you didnt answer the question

theres people who like the way things are and dont feel alineated, is that not a valid point of view?

with respect I feel you are now being obtuse....

this isn't about "limiting an artists vision" (assuming that vision wasn't commercially influenced in the first place...a little issue you seem hell bent on ignoring)

if anything this is the opposite, if we make it OK to make games that Have female protagonists or different kinds in the mainstream game space them BAM more variety, right now the one notable female led game only exists because its from a long standing franchise, (Tomb Radier) Bioshock Infinite didn't even put Elizabeth on the cover....a friggen gaming magazine from somewhere in europor [/i]photshoped Ellie out[/I]

heres the thing, theres nothing stopping artists right now if they want to make female characters, which is the opposite you intent to do by making sexy characters soemthing worthly of critique, something undesirable

and just because an artist's vision is often comercially influenced, does that mean he can compromise it completely?

criticism is not insults and harassment...its [I/]important[/I] yes not all criticism is valid, that's why its up to the artist to tell the difference between valid and constructive criticism and pointless negativity....if they can't handle that they are in the wrong business

but that is not criticism, because the piece of work is not of any less quality just because it has a character that doesnt appeal to you, and sometimes it is harassment, plain and simple

no...just frustrated

pardon the misunderstanding, maybe you should try calming down, the less insults we throw around, the better

if you actually read what I said

it depends on what they are SAYING first and foremost, so no

they both use the same argument, it can be anything, both people say the exact same thing, it can be the most progressive statement of the century or a KKK speech, it doesnt matter, does opening the doors invalidate one of those people's opinion?

you just refered to it as shit

stop harassing the artist [/sarcasm]


[quote/]but i wont ask the artist to censor himself, you know what i will do instead? turn around, cuz thats simply art that doesnt appeal to me

well shit...and here I was plying GTA for 2 hours every night working myself into a rage asurism when all I had to do was not play it? [/sarcasm]

yeah so what? the fact you let it be doesn't change what you think...you just told me what you thought...and other people should be able to say the same thing, even in a more open space (like I don't know...a series of youtube videos?) you wouldn't send that artist rape or death threats would you?

and you know if MOST and I mean MOST mainstream media commonly had offensive depictions of Catholicism you probably wouldn't nod and smile if people tond you to go away, told you to be nice, told you to make your own pro-catholic art or painted you as the antichrist for dare pointing such a thing out[/quote]

so? i can refer to something as shit im not harassing anybody

yes i can tell you what i think but i dont consider it a valid criticism of the piece of art, hell for starters i know nothing about photography, my criticism would be beyond worthless, it wouldnt help the artist improve his work

something that doesnt diminish the quality of a piece of art isnt a valid criticism, atleast in my opinion

you must understand, you cant ask for censorship to something that is not widely considered offensive

also theres plenty of pro-catholic art, damn the renaissance is full of it

i assume you are talking about minorities in that last paragraph

if most mainstream media is offensive to minorities, why i am not offended? havent you thought this offensiveness is open to interpretation?

 

[Vault101]

maybe racism is perpetuated in your country because you fellas keep making a big deal about it, thats my point

that is an oversimplification

and a bullshit one

AND a very easy thing for someone to say who doesn't experience such a thing themselves, again you keep implying "well I'm not white and I don't feel any issues dur to my race so therefore those people who do are wrong)

[b/]your are not a racial minority in America[/b] your opinion is colored by that fact


hold on

[quote/]yes i can tell you what I think but I don't consider it a valid criticism of the piece of art,[b/] hell for starters i know nothing about photography, my criticism would be beyond worthless,[/b] it wouldn't help the artist improve his work[/quote]


you....you just said... what I have been trying to say the whole....time...

you [b/]acknowledged[/b] that your understanding of something [b/]may be limited[/b] because [b/]you didn't have a deep understanding of photography[/b]

your opinion would not be "beyond worthless" in that case but you said it yourself, you took into account your experiences and knowledge of something and applied it to how well you think think you understand that something and weather or not your opinion of it would have any weight....

and you decided that since you don't have a deep understanding of photography you decided that you didn't have anything to say on the matter..OR you might choose to listen to someone who does have a better understanding of photography and conflate that opinion with your own...or disagree with them entirely!

similar thing, you don't know what its like to be a woman, so you may not have a deep understanding of how we ecperience the world and therefore how we feel about its media or how it affects us

you don't know what its like to be black in America so you may not have a deep understanding of how race affects their lives in that culture


please dear lord tell me you get it NOW

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

that is an oversimplification

and a bullshit one

AND a very easy thing for someone to say who doesn't experience such a thing themselves, again you keep implying "well I'm not white and I don't feel any issues dur to my race so therefore those people who do are wrong)

[b/]your are not a racial minority in America[/b] your opinion is colored by that fact


hold on

true im not a minority in the US, that doesnt mean i dont know what racism is, admitedly i havent experienced first hand

[quote/]yes i can tell you what I think but I don't consider it a valid criticism of the piece of art,[b/] hell for starters i know nothing about photography, my criticism would be beyond worthless,[/b] it wouldn't help the artist improve his work

you....you just said... what I have been trying to say the whole....time...

you [b/]acknowledged[/b] that your understanding of something [b/]may be limited[/b] because [b/]you didn't have a deep understanding of photography[/b]

your opinion would not be "beyond worthless" in that case but you said it yourself, you took into account your experiences and knowledge of something and applied it to how well you think think you understand that something and weather or not your opinion of it would have any weight....

and you decided that since you don't have a deep understanding of photography you decided that you didn't have anything to say on the matter..OR you might choose to listen to someone who does have a better understanding of photography and conflate that opinion with your own...or disagree with them entirely!

similar thing, you don't know what its like to be a woman, so you may not have a deep understanding of how we ecperience the world and therefore how we feel about its media or how it affects us

you don't know what its like to be black in America so you may not have a deep understanding of how race affects their lives in that culture


please dear lord tell me you get it NOW[/quote]

i dont know about photography, how could my criticism improve the artists work?

its the blind leading the blind, i would be no better at rocket physics, i know nothing about the deal

i havent argued at any point that i know nothing about racism, i havent experienced it, but like i said, if my argument is solid it shouldnt matter

im arguing "i dont know about photography, therefore i cant critize the art of a photographer"

you are arguing "im not a photographer, therefore i cant critize the art of a photographer"

 

[Baddamobs]

EVERYONE TAKE A DEEP BREATH!

...

...

Alright, let me just say this and get the hell out here.

Look, I think a good percentage of feminism is correct/right/whatever. BUT. Can we all at least agree that the statement (made in hyperbole; I'm not blaming the comic creators for making a point (though subtly is a virtue, I mean Jesus...)) is in and of it self, sexist and racist?

It is assuming on a person's gender and race, and thus is everything feminism and race equality activist argue against. No one in their right mind would make this statement and not see it as at least 'too negative' a message, surely?

There is much to this topic, and I freaking skipping the surface to make a point, but can we all just agree that sexism/racism IS A BAD THING, REGARDLESS OF THE SEX/RACE TARGETED ?

...Alright? Now everyone take another breath.

(But seriously, subtly, look it up, Christ...)

 

[Falling_v1legacy]

i never said anything even similar, i said, what makes one claim more valid than the other?

how is limiting an artist's vision more variety?

Do you work in the arts at all? Because from my own experience, criticism has led to a far better product than had I stayed in my own echo chamber. I had a vision, certainly. But a creative work is often a work in process, one that becomes realized as it is created. It is not simply transcribing word for word, image for image, fully formed from your head. Sure, you can let criticism run roughshod over you. But inciteful criticism strengthens art; it does not diminish it. I would argue better characterization for women in games strengthens the game (in games where characters are a meaningful concept.) It is important to hear feedback to improve the next work. Some criticims you adopt, some you consider and use sparingly, and some you ignore. But the presence of criticism does not squelch so-called artistic vision.

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

i never said anything even similar, i said, what makes one claim more valid than the other?

how is limiting an artist's vision more variety?

Do you work in the arts at all? Because from my own experience, criticism has led to a far better product than had I stayed in my own echo chamber. I had a vision, certainly. But a creative work is often a work in process, one that becomes realized as it is created. It is not simply transcribing word for word, image for image, fully formed from your head. Sure, you can let criticism run roughshod over you. But inciteful criticism strengthens art; it does not diminish it. I would argue better characterization for women in games strengthens the game (in games where characters are a meaningful concept.) It is important to hear feedback to improve the next work. Some criticims you adopt, some you consider and use sparingly, and some you ignore. But the presence of criticism does not squelch so-called artistic vision.

theres difference between useful criticism and useless criticism

useful criticism: the body proportions in this realistic painting are off (the work of art is objectively flawed)

useless criticism: this sculpture doesnt have enough ballons (the work of art doesnt appeal to my tastes)

a "sexist" character does not in any way diminish the quality of a game, a women character can be weak, or revealing, or promiscuous, etc, and still be a good character, because these are concepts an artist can work with, there are weak women just like there are weak men, there are women who embrace their sexuality just like there are men that do

the idea that a set of traits from a character can diminish a work of art is completely ridiculous

is Django Unchained a worse movie because it features racist characters?

is Maus a worse comic because the artist didnt hide the fact his father is racist?

hell no

 

[Cronenberg1]

i never said anything even similar, i said, what makes one claim more valid than the other?

how is limiting an artist's vision more variety?

Do you work in the arts at all? Because from my own experience, criticism has led to a far better product than had I stayed in my own echo chamber. I had a vision, certainly. But a creative work is often a work in process, one that becomes realized as it is created. It is not simply transcribing word for word, image for image, fully formed from your head. Sure, you can let criticism run roughshod over you. But inciteful criticism strengthens art; it does not diminish it. I would argue better characterization for women in games strengthens the game (in games where characters are a meaningful concept.) It is important to hear feedback to improve the next work. Some criticims you adopt, some you consider and use sparingly, and some you ignore. But the presence of criticism does not squelch so-called artistic vision.

theres difference between useful criticism and useless criticism

useful criticism: the body proportions in this realistic painting are off (the work of art is objectively flawed)

useless criticism: this sculpture doesnt have enough ballons (the work of art doesnt appeal to my tastes)

a "sexist" character does not in any way diminish the quality of a game, a women character can be weak, or revealing, or promiscuous, etc, and still be a good character, because these are concepts an artist can work with, there are weak women just like there are weak men, there are women who embrace their sexuality just like there are men that do

the idea that a set of traits from a character can diminish a work of art is completely ridiculous

is Django Unchained a worse movie because it features racist characters?

is Maus a worse comic because the artist didnt hide the fact his father is racist?

hell no

It's not the characters themselves it's the use of the characters. Yes those traits can be used well but that doesn't mean that we can't debate when they're not used well, or overused, or when they are used without purpose to the story. You can't break down all art into completely objective criticism.

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

i never said anything even similar, i said, what makes one claim more valid than the other?

how is limiting an artist's vision more variety?

Do you work in the arts at all? Because from my own experience, criticism has led to a far better product than had I stayed in my own echo chamber. I had a vision, certainly. But a creative work is often a work in process, one that becomes realized as it is created. It is not simply transcribing word for word, image for image, fully formed from your head. Sure, you can let criticism run roughshod over you. But inciteful criticism strengthens art; it does not diminish it. I would argue better characterization for women in games strengthens the game (in games where characters are a meaningful concept.) It is important to hear feedback to improve the next work. Some criticims you adopt, some you consider and use sparingly, and some you ignore. But the presence of criticism does not squelch so-called artistic vision.

theres difference between useful criticism and useless criticism

useful criticism: the body proportions in this realistic painting are off (the work of art is objectively flawed)

useless criticism: this sculpture doesnt have enough ballons (the work of art doesnt appeal to my tastes)

a "sexist" character does not in any way diminish the quality of a game, a women character can be weak, or revealing, or promiscuous, etc, and still be a good character, because these are concepts an artist can work with, there are weak women just like there are weak men, there are women who embrace their sexuality just like there are men that do

the idea that a set of traits from a character can diminish a work of art is completely ridiculous

is Django Unchained a worse movie because it features racist characters?

is Maus a worse comic because the artist didnt hide the fact his father is racist?

hell no

It's not the characters themselves it's the use of the characters. Yes those traits can be used well but that doesn't mean that we can't debate when they're not used well, or overused, or when they are used without purpose to the story. You can't break down all art into completely objective criticism.

i think that falls more within the realm of "bad characters", which is a legit criticism

now according to a certain *air quote* feminist *air quote*, anita sarkessian, the use of a character that that has traits negatively assotiated with women is "sexist"

i argue that the use of a "sexist" character does not in any way shape or form affect the quality of a game, therefore is not a valid criticism, in fact i can name a few characters in gaming and other media that share these "sexist" traits and are still great characters, i could also mention other characters with negative traits that are good characters regardless

 

[SilverStuddedSquirre]

Yeah how anyone can think that poor [https://twitter.com/the_moviebob/status/502692856738619392] innocent [https://twitter.com/the_moviebob/status/502038039968112640] bob would ever zealously attack people for having a different opinion than him is beyond me.

Except that isn't what is goin on there at all. That isn't a Zealous attack on anything, it's s stated opinion of what he thinks of how some people are behaving, and after skimming some of these topics (( about ten posts and I have a headache))
I agree with him.

(Seriously though, people; be nice.)

Yes Queen Ninja Michael. Sorry Queen Ninja Michael.


In all honesty The critical miss guys do seem to spend of time taking the piss out of straight white males. Don't know if either of them are gay, but if the comics anything to by they are both certainly white.

Then again they seem to have it out for Evangelion fans the most.

They can make fun of me all they want, I'll be fine.