The Feminine Female

[Evidencebased]

What's wrong with scrunchies? It's just an accessory for making pony tails. Ditto butterfly clips. Why is that equated with being juvenile?

Actually, I equate them with being vaguely white-trashy, but that's a personal bias.

I am very attracted to feminine women. The sort of girl who is happy to wear bright coloured skirts down past her knee and a long ponytail hair adornments. Girls who have a soft demeanour and are gentle in their actions.

OP: I think the reason you might be seeing fewer women of this description is due to the items I highlighted above. Soft demeanor and gentle are descriptions of weak women.

Not that being gentle and kind is necessarily a bad thing - it's a great trait in guys - but honestly I have no interest in being weak. I far prefer being a *****. A scrunchy-hating *****. ^^

I like wearing dark clothes that show off my figure. Black is always a sexy color - so is red. I like red, I got a hot red top recently.

I also like flowy dresses that look like something you might wear in classic Greece. Those are feminine, but in a sleek, sexy way.

That's the thing - being feminine doesn't mean you have to be soft or gentle or weak - being feminine is being the most "female" you can be. Women are strong, tough, and capable. There is no reason for us to pretend to be weak.

I originally clicked on this thread because I misread the title as fem fatals. That is a much more interesting topic.

You ninja'd just about everything I was gonna say! (Also: *****-to-***** high five!)

I wouldn't necessarily characterize soft or gentle people as "weak" but it's not my style. Tragically I'm one of those awful outspoken feminists who always has the temerity to, yanno, talk in public (mouthy harlot!) and express my opinions and stuff. However, if my job didn't require long pants and closed-toed shoes (and if I didn't walk my commute in the rain every day) I'd probably wear cute skirts and heels a lot more often. So whether you would count me as at all "feminine" I don't know. Alternatively, one of my good friends regularly wears flannel men's shirts, but she is the sweetest person ever and loves babies and hates arguing. So god knows which of us would win a femininity competition.

Probably I'd consider girls who are quiet and sweet as just having that kind of personality type. Historically this personality type has often been characterized as "feminine" (compared to the stereotypically "masculine" traits of confidence and aggression) and women have been socialized to behave in these ways, but I don't believe it is inherently womanly to be demure and kind. I think the OP just likes that personality type, maybe -- if being a shy darling were considered "manly" he might have written a post about how much he loves tomboys.

 

[Evidencebased]

People keep saying femininity has changed, can someone explain to me what it has changed to?

Probably from the ages of knights and ladies where princesses dressed ridiculous and acted helpless in castles, to...well...nowadays, independant, career driven women in a suit-and-pants
(not saying thats a bad thing! I have a bachelors degree and my own career to pursue)

Ick. If pantsuits are progress, then I'm going back to Camelot...

But it is a silly place!

 

[fangclaw]

1) basically what you said, i could maybe think of one or two things to add, but feh.
2) i can't remember the last time I saw a feminine girl, whether it's just my definition or that they all got up and said "f*ck being feminine" you are not alone, i also find it anywhere from very hard to impossible to find a feminine girl.

 

[lovetropicana]

The problem with using 'feminine' as a definition associated with a set of characteristics is that it tends to devalue the link between women lacking those characteristics and their gender identity. It is also used to degrade and 'cissify' males who have those traits.

It's very reminiscent of positive stereotyping, and really pretty much the same thing with slightly more neutral connotations. I've known plenty of Asian people who are terrible or mediocre at math and I've always wondered if they felt less Asian for it.

I'm an asian that's quite average at math, do I feel any less asian...no
I'm asian, it's what I am. Yes I have moments where I feel very "white" because I understand australian culture and slang, but it doesn't take away from what I "am" ...if that makes any sense. There's more to asian culture than just math, we just joke about it cos it's funny.

 

[lovetropicana]

People keep saying femininity has changed, can someone explain to me what it has changed to?

Probably from the ages of knights and ladies where princesses dressed ridiculous and acted helpless in castles, to...well...nowadays, independant, career driven women in a suit-and-pants
(not saying thats a bad thing! I have a bachelors degree and my own career to pursue)

Ick. If pantsuits are progress, then I'm going back to Camelot...

Aww come on, plenty of women are afraid they won't be taken seriously in the workplace if they aren't on-par with the men, you can hardly blame them for wanting to have a costume and a persona that screams "TAKE ME SERIOUSLY PLZ"

You take [i]that[/i] seriously?[/quote]
(screams and throws a mouse at the computer monitor)

 

[lovetropicana]

And oh, of course you'd prefer camelot, you have the word "sir" and "knight" in your username =.=

 

[Midnight Crossroads]

In my experience, op, finding women like that requires looking for girls in the upper class. I've hung around with poor and middle class folk most of my life, but I'm starting to see things from a different point of view since I received a scholarship for a private university. Girls suddenly describe themselves as belles and take it very seriously. Women who can run around in dresses everyday do not work.

 

[kortin]

I personally hate women who dress all sl**-like. Pretty much any fashion model out there. Yes, I love your body, no, other people don't need to see every little bit.

However, I like women who wear a skirt (no mini skirts. Falls under above miniature rant ^) a nice blouse and some normal shoes (please for the love of god get rid of high heels!). If i were at the mall and saw someone who looked like that, I would probably be drawn to her like flies to honey. Hair for the most part i don't mind, just as long as it goes at least below your ears. I saw a woman the other day, she pretty much had a military-style haircut. I hope to god she had lice or some other hair shortening disease.

 

[Terminal Blue]

There is a word in my vocabulary for women like this. A *****.

Argument invalidated.

Am I wrong to maintain my old definitions of what makes a feminine woman?

It's not wrong, after all you didn't choose that attraction. If anything you unconsciously bought into an ideal which is out of date, and I don't think anyone can accuse you of misogyny just on those grounds. But..

Men - What do you consider a feminine girl to be?

I wouldn't use the word except as an insult. It has very uncomfortable associations for me.

For one, it comes across as 'girly' or infantile. Feminine women, to my mind, either reject or play down their own intelligence and independence, because neither meshes with a gentle or sweet persona. They seek to engage with men as substitute fathers rather than equals, even their appearance is just a display to attract the male attention they feel they need in order to be complete human beings. I guess I can understand why some guys like that kind of thing, but to me it's infantilism which reduces beauty to the status of simply being neotenic.

For girls I actually like, I greatly prefer the word 'femme', which has stronger associations to me. To me a femme woman is not required to act or behave in a certain way or to refrain from certain acts or emotions, her defining quality is that she is sensual as opposed to instrumental. She cares about appearances, not necessarily because she is shallow but because beauty and aesthetics are important to her. She is receptive in that she likes to receive attention, but (and this is where the lesbian meaning really helps) it is not specifically male attention. The prettiness does not have to be a display to attract a male counterpart who can plug the gaps in what is essentially a socially approved case of arrested development, it can be adopted from a position of independence with which both men and other women can engage from a position of relative equality.

Seriously, if you think 'feminine' women are rare, try living with those standards.

 

[conflictofinterests]

I, personally see feminine more along the lines of women who dress as if they are reasonably comfortable with their sexuality and sensuality. Fitted business suits, knee-length sun dresses with belts, or short, tight dresses with heels. Hair is generally short and pixie-like or long and curly. They tend to be either white-collar workers or living off their parents, and tend to be a little more self-important than I'm comfortable hanging out with for long periods of time. Other than that, I wear the occasional dress, and lately I've been wearing my hair long, but I seem to have a very strange fashion sense for Southern California.

 

[conflictofinterests]

There is a word in my vocabulary for women like this. A *****.

Argument invalidated.

Am I wrong to maintain my old definitions of what makes a feminine woman?

It's not wrong, after all you didn't choose that attraction. If anything you unconsciously bought into an ideal which is out of date, and I don't think anyone can accuse you of misogyny just on that grounds. But..

Men - What do you consider a feminine girl to be?

I wouldn't use the word except as an insult. It has very uncomfortable associations for me.

For one, it comes across as 'girly' or infantile. Feminine women, to my mind, either reject or play down their own intelligence and independence, because neither meshes with a gentle or sweet persona. They seek to engage with men as substitute fathers rather than equals, even their appearance is just a display to attract the male attention they feel they need in order to be complete human beings. I guess I can understand why some guys like that kind of thing, but to me it's infantilism which reduces beauty to the status of simply being neotenic.

For girls I actually like, I greatly prefer the word 'femme', which has stronger associations to me. A femme woman to me is not required to act or behave in a certain way or to refrain from certain acts or emotions, her defining quality is that she is sensual as opposed to instrumental. She cares about appearances, not necessarily because she is shallow but because beauty and aesthetics are important to her. She is receptive in that she likes to receive attention, but not because she is pliable and docile towards men.

Most importantly (and this is where the lesbian meaning really helps) femme women do not necessarily define themselves in relation to men at all. The prettiness does not have to be a display to attract male attention, it can be adopted from a position of independence with which both men and women can engage in equal partnerships.

I would like to note that I feel a bit of a connection between longer, flowy-er dressesand and a more infantile approach to relationships with others.

 

[Sparcrypt]

I admit get annoyed at the constant excuse that girls won't wear dresses or skirts to do them being uncomfortable. I guess a lot of people didn't get the memo that comfortable clothes are usually not attractive.

So... You get annoyed because girls wont wear what you want them to because they don't like it? I think that's a perfectly valid reason for someone choosing not to do something. Some girls like skirts, others don't. Comfortable clothing can be attractive, but if you're someone who doesn't like jeans on girls you wont see it regardless.

Why are you seeing this as a bad thing? Like you've never been annoyed by something in your life? I'm not petitioning to force women to wear skirts and dresses, I'm saying that if a women is out in baggy sweatpants and a hoodie, I'm not likely to have my eyes draw to her. Similarly if she's walking around in a little more than a few pieces of string. I won't find that attractive either.

It's personal taste, and no one should get offended by it.

It's the way you phrased it.

It's not an 'excuse'. It's a reason. Big difference there. For instance, I don't wear ankle socks because I find them to be unconfortable and I prefer full length sports socks (I'm a guy). This is not my 'excuse' for not wearing ankle socks as seems to be the trend these days with a lot of guys - I just want to be comfortable. That doesn't mean I dress like a slob however, I dress to look good according to my own tastes.

Plenty of girls I know wear jeans or pants and look very nice while doing so - just because your taste doesn't extend to those kind of girls doesn't mean they're thinking up excuses not to look good.

 

[lovetropicana]

She is receptive in that she likes to receive attention, but (and this is where the lesbian meaning really helps) it is not specifically male attention. The prettiness does not have to be a display to attract a male counterpart who can plug the gaps in what is essentially a socially approved case of arrested development, it can be adopted from a position of independence with which both men and other women can engage from a position of relative equality.

Pretty sure most females dress codes are governed by other women. Yes they like attention from males, yes feeling of empowerment and sexuality etc etc but at the end of the day women compare themselves to and judge and police other women. Two very simple lines: If a rival female is getting too much attention from her dress? "What a slut". If a female needs to be put in her place in the pecking order? "What are you WEARING?".

 

[ks1234]

Seriously, When I was in highschool that was all people wore and I had more refined tastes and people thought that garbage from A&F looked better than Ralph Lauren or CK.
And then I grew up and got into bodybuilding and none of that shit fits anymore.
Anyway, Touche' my friend, touche'

It's all the same brand name douchebaggery.

Just because it's a "brand name" doesn't make it douchey... I wore everything from Wal-Mart to Target to Costco brand and yes, I wore RL and CK...
Seriously, theres nothing wrong with wearing nice clothes... but if your nice clothes make you think you're "cooler" or "better" than someone... or if you won't wear anything else, then it makes you a douche'
Otherwise, it just makes you a person who likes to wear nice clothes. lol.

 

[lovetropicana]

I admit get annoyed at the constant excuse that girls won't wear dresses or skirts to do them being uncomfortable. I guess a lot of people didn't get the memo that comfortable clothes are usually not attractive.

So... You get annoyed because girls wont wear what you want them to because they don't like it? I think that's a perfectly valid reason for someone choosing not to do something. Some girls like skirts, others don't. Comfortable clothing can be attractive, but if you're someone who doesn't like jeans on girls you wont see it regardless.

Why are you seeing this as a bad thing? Like you've never been annoyed by something in your life? I'm not petitioning to force women to wear skirts and dresses, I'm saying that if a women is out in baggy sweatpants and a hoodie, I'm not likely to have my eyes draw to her. Similarly if she's walking around in a little more than a few pieces of string. I won't find that attractive either.

It's personal taste, and no one should get offended by it.

It's the way you phrased it.

It's not an 'excuse'. It's a reason. Big difference there. For instance, I don't wear ankle socks because I find them to be unconfortable and I prefer full length sports socks (I'm a guy). This is not my 'excuse' for not wearing ankle socks as seems to be the trend these days with a lot of guys - I just want to be comfortable. That doesn't mean I dress like a slob however, I dress to look good according to my own tastes.

Plenty of girls I know wear jeans or pants and look very nice while doing so - just because your taste doesn't extend to those kind of girls doesn't mean they're thinking up excuses not to look good.

Maybe knight's friends also didnt explain "uncomfortable" not just in the "restrictive" sense, but also means you risk flashing people if your dress flips up/you stand over a heat vent/you fall on your face. I know when my friends have had to explain their tomboyish clothing choice to males (how galling!) that's what they really mean. Plus dresses and skirts don't go with sneakers so she won't be able to run (away screaming from the guy asking about her clothing choices) lol.

So a longer answer might actually be "Don't wear skirts cos people (believe me they do) treat you differently, you risk showing a street your underwear if you're clumsy, and might have to keep pulling your skirt down if its tight and hikes up. Pants...no such problem"

(also skirts and dresses are MUCH comfier than pants, you don't have anything tight riding up your crack, plus its easier to go to the toilet)

Oh and finally some dresses only suit heels, the level of discomfort from wearing heels is MUCH different to any other discomfort. This isnt a "oh my tie is a lil chokey" its risking your entire balance and if you're standing, a constant reminder you're wearing the wrong shoe size :S

 

[CleverCover]

I really don't know. Feminine to me might be a mix of Team Mom/Mama Bear with some colors thrown in and longish hair I guess. I'm sticking to that. The feminine on tv makes me want to switch genders some times.

You know, like fashion friendly, makeup, nail polish, hair always perfect, skinny, boy-band crazy chicks.

Wait are we including personality in here or just clothing? It seems like just clothing from the OP. Is is just clothing?

If it's clothing...um, anything that fits nicely I guess. Nice clothes that come together. It could work for masculine but a woman could be feminine in pants and a skirt. I usually rols with jeans, a shirt, sneakers most times, and jeans/skirt, shirt and sandals in the summer. Dressy could be nice pants or a nice dress.

Feminine is ok. It's girly you avoid like the plague.

 

[InsomniJack]

Every time I think of feminine, I keep coming back to that chick from the T-Mobile commercials, who I [insert appropriate substitute for the word "hate on a flaming stick of burning hatred of hatedom"]. Which is, pretty much: bright colored sundress, hemline a little at/slightly above the knees, and long hair.

Because I haven't seen a girl like that since... I can't even tell you, it was so long ago. Maybe when I was in community college a few years ago.

 

[Terminal Blue]

Pretty sure most females dress codes are governed by other women. Yes they like attention from males, yes feeling of empowerment and sexuality etc etc but at the end of the day women compare themselves to and judge and police other women. Two very simple lines: If a rival female is getting too much attention from her dress? "What a slut". If a female needs to be put in her place in the pecking order? "What are you WEARING?".

I think you kind of said it yourself.

How much competition and social policing amongst normative heterosexual women is about regulating or competing for the attention of men? Just because men aren't doing it doesn't mean its not about men..

My distinction between 'femininity' and 'femme' (call it 'good' and 'bad' femininity if you want) is more about how they're defined than how they're enforced.

Let's take a practical example. A girl I think is absolute dynamite has a thing for retro floral print swing dresses. She buys really good expensive makeup and is the kind of person who practices on her own to get good at applying makeup. She's also physically stunning and built like a pin-up girl.

When we go out, she gets virtually no attention from straight men unless she chooses to speak to them. You know why? Because she never looks accessible. She's quite happy with that, she doesn't need random men to come up and talk to her unless she chooses to talk to them. She's definately not 'masculine' or even 'butch', but she's not feminine in the sense that her look and attitude isn't predicated on interacting with men.

My point is that part of looking traditionally feminine is very deliberately not overdoing it, not looking so good that insecure guys (i.e. almost all of us, be honest) won't think they have a chance with you. I know a lot of pretty 'girly' girls who wear off the rack floral dresses and 'cute' accessories and other feminine attire and, universally, they just don't do it for me. Their dress and mannerisms are predicated on the fact that people like me (well, people with dicks) will actively approach them and play daddy-substitute with them to try and get in their pants. It's not really about feeling feminine or sexy except insofar as men can make you feel like that by paying attention to you. It's a femininity which is not strong or independent, which needs constant validation in order to be legitimate, and that's just not very hot.

I don't want to compromise the personal preference of anyone else, but personally.. it bugs me on several levels, and I don't know what to make of it really. I apologise if I'm being harsh here or offending anyone.. the whole thing just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

 

[Mrrrgggrlllrrrg]

Feminine women to me are women that are strong, that can hunt and treat it as it should, a girl that can take animals life and waste none of it is a quality in its own, carpentry, masonry, metalwork, ect are all feminine qualities to me.

Clothing wise I think whats comfortable matters, hell I wear kilts on occasion, feels great man feels great.

But anyways I like fluttershy. yup ran out of things to type.

Also not stealing my car is a plus, yeah.

 

[Labyrinth]

Louder, aggressive, "tougher" behavior is a direct result of higher amounts of testosterone.

Not true. Recent studies published in Nature have instead linked testosterone to behaviour which was geared to attain a certain goal. The assumed link with testosterone has arisen due to animal behaviour and anecdotal evidence of violent habits. This is because the environments in which those things are observed are more succeptable to violence, as indeed may be the case referenced in your assumption. Testosterone perhaps fuels the desire for status but not aggressive behaviour. Do remember that aggression in animals such as lab rats is not the same as aggression in humans. In the latter case, aggression causes an increase in testosterone to occurr, not the other way around.

Other studies have shown that the belief that one has taken testosterone rather than a placebo leads to people 'playing up' to the myths about aggression. Hormones don't control our behaviour and personalities, background etc are far more key to whether one will react aggressively than testosterone and gender.

Three things I'd like to point out.

1. I use the word girl as an informal noun, nothing else. I'd probably use that term for women up to age 40-45. To me it doesn't mean anything more than that. Much to me an equivalent to calling a man a guy.

2. This is not a matter of characteristics as I see it. To me the style of garb is simply of matter of preference and taste and not indicative of a certain personality. I do not intend to suggest that any style of dress is a lone determinant of a person's worth, attractiveness or qualities.

3. I'm well aware of the denigrative nature of certain aspects of gender roles and how they relate to people who don't follow them. I myself would probably be classified as a "sissy boy" to some.(And have been told so, in no uncertain terms.) It's an unfortunate fact of life, and it's not going to go away anytime soon. Not that I think that's a good thing, it's just something that sucks and we have to just deal with. Again, I don't really think that this is something that I would link directly to dress style, as to me it simply a matter of taste.

As much as one would generally assume nitpicking to be a bad thing, it remains to be one of the three major functions of the internet. The other two being swapping porn and stealing music. /rimshot

1. This is what I mean by normalising. It's something that has been so repeated, so ingraned that it becomes automatic and the connotations and meanings are forgotten. I don't consider it a particularly sterling excuse.

2. Oh, I know. And as I said preferences aren't an issue. I'm bringing other issues into the thread because I think they're related due to the language used and the question of 'femininity'.

3. We're also talking about personality characteristics remember which is why I weighed in to the discussion. If this was a "talk about what you like" thread I likely would have stayed out of it.