The Great Final Fantasy Retrospective - Let's Mosey

[CriticalGaming]

Did you try to experiment different characters with different materias, or did you feel the characters were more appropriate towards certain ones? Because I always felt the latter. I.E. Aerith felt like the mage of the group, so I always gave her stuff like mp plus, cure, fire, ice, W-Magic, etc. Yuffie is a nimble ninja, so I give her steal, time, throw, gil plus. Barret was the tank, Tifa was a skillful monk with counters things a fighter would do, Red XIII was the analytical tactician/support with buff and deff, and Cloud probably was my jack-of-all-trades guy.

Of course, I had to switch the materials around to match the situations, but I personally thought some characters would prefer certain types of materias

I load everyone to the balls with uh....materia balls. Nobody is set to a specific magic type because I worry more about making sure that every magic i'm trying to level is present in the party at once. I only care about who has what materia for specific events or fights. Otherwise it's all about maximizing AP gain.

 

[Silvanus]

Because the issue i have with repeated fights in ER is bosses that are repeated. Final Fantasy games almost never reuse a boss, and even when you are fighting technically the same fucking dude, the fight is drastically different with a completely different power level.

The normal scrub mobs I don't care about them being reused.

Hmmm, alright then.

Though I maintain that main story bosses aren't repeated. Morgott and Godfrey are drastically different fights. Equivalent to fighting Gilgamesh in FF5, Ultros in FF6, Jenova variants in FF7, or Seifer in FF8 a second time.

 

[CriticalGaming]

Morgott and Godfrey are drastically different fights. Equivalent to fighting Gilgamesh in FF5, Ultros in FF6, Jenova variants in FF7, or Seifer in FF8 a second time.

Except Morgot also appears in an evergoal side dungeon, as well as other main story bosses that exist in extra places for no reason. The red wolf appears like three or four times, IIRC. And those fights are not different. That's the thing.

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

Except Morgot also appears in an evergoal side dungeon, as well as other main story bosses that exist in extra places for no reason. The red wolf appears like three or four times, IIRC. And those fights are not different. That's the thing.

Those extra fights are still optional though, for anyone who’d like a crack at fighting them again before NG+, or loot hunting. It doesn’t bother me any more than all the repeated bosses in the Chalice dungeons, although I understand how it would become annoying for some.

 

[Silvanus]

Except Morgot also appears in an evergoal side dungeon, as well as other main story bosses that exist in extra places for no reason. The red wolf appears like three or four times, IIRC. And those fights are not different. That's the thing.

Morgot doesn't appear in an Evergaol, but Godefroy (repeat of Godrick but does have minor differences) does.

But Godefroy and the Red Wolf fights are all purely optional, and even quite out-of-the-way. The Red Wolf reappears as a field boss, too-- which is equivalent to the elemental Fiends reappearing as regular enemies at the end of FF9.

 

[Kyrian007]

But drawing magic took so long, it was way longer than just fighting enemy as you progressed. I guess maybe if you play so slowly that a regular FF fight without drawing magic take you 5+ minutes I can see your point that drawing magic save time. But in my experience its way way longer to do all the drawing BS than just do the regular fight, which tend to take a minute or less, whereas drawing 300 of every magic would take upward of 10 minutes, and you had to do that for every magic, and as the game progressed the amount of magic you obtained would go down with every draw (low level magic are maybe 5 a draw on average, high level would be maybe 2). Also if you use no encounter, how are you going to know if you're not skipping monster that do have magic you don't have? One way or another you have to fight a couple of enemy every new area. And where not even touching on the fact that the system meant you couldn't actually use magic in fight, otherwise you'd just make your character weaker.

Not to mention, has I already said, you can just skip fight and be underlevel and still clear most of the FF games easy peasy. As a whole, the FF franchise is incredibly easy, aside from a few optional super boss, grinding or even keeping up in level is completely unnecessary. As a kid who didn't really understand english and didn't know how leveling worked, I managed to clear FF4-9 all incredibly underlevel and with piss poor use of the game unique mechanic (materia, skill, junction etc.), without much trouble. In most game item are insanely overpowered and incredibly cheap, you can clear entire boss really easily by just constantly using phoenix down since you can buy 99 of them for really cheap and a character does as much damage whether they have full health or are almost dead (in a few of them being low health is actually a good thing).

Wow, you are only averaging 2-5 on a draw? Yeah, at that rate it would take 10 minutes to draw to full. That might get tedious enough to complain about. Junction something better to a magic stat. When you draw 7 or 8 on average that time comes crashing down. And the high level stuff, by the time you need it you have the ability to refine it to full instead of drawing it. Another huge time saver. I'm not saying that drawing a new spell to full in a fight wasn't tedious. It was 5 or 6 minutes of boredom. But again, to never have to fight that type of monster again... I just don't see that as somehow taking more time than having to fight 100 or more random encounters just to level up a materia a step. You keep talking about clearing a game underleveled. Great, if that's what you want to do, then do it that way. Maybe that's where our disconnect is, because I'm talking about clearing the game effectively OVERleveled. The path to that in 8 is much shorter than it is in 7. Or 6 or 9 for that matter. It is funny you bring up how powerful using items is compared to how cheap they are. Money is basically unlimited in 8, you don't have to random encounter to get it either. So very early on you basically have unlimited means to get items... that you can refine into spells that you don't have to draw. Meaning there are a bunch of monster types you never have to fight. And as for really rare items, the add in chocobo tamagotchi game can be exploited to get large quantities of really rare items that can be refined into endgame level full magic and the fairly rare Aura spell its actually beneficial to cast in the game.

 

[sXeth]

There actually is some evidence in the OG game and then of course future media, that because Sephiroth was in the life stream living in essence through the blood of the planet. He was able to take control of Jenova and all those infused with her cells. That is why the clones continue to appear as sephiroth because he is controlling everything including Jenova herself. Then once finally defeated by the party, Cloud's memory kept his essence in-tact and allowed him to manipulate things in the world, infecting people (geostigma in Advent children). In fact Aerith has this same power, Cloud's memory of her kept her spirit together in the life stream and she moves through the life stream keeping an eye on sephiroth's essence even though she can't defeat him. This is through novels written by the original story writer of FF7 called Lifestream White and Lifestream Black.



I mean this is the same as every FF game up to this point and also a few more future games so....that's just par for the FF course.

Sephiroth has no motivations of his own though. His gameplan is pulling down a meteor to do Jenova's alien life cycle thing (cribbed entirely from Lavos identical behaviour in Crono Trigger as that goes). His main claim to even holding the villain status besides sexy shirtless goth boi status is that Cloud is so personally focused on him, but he has no agency of his own. The clones all look like him cause they are all clones of Jenova/Lucretia/Hojo DNA, he's not the original, hes one of the many.


Even the other "Dragon" archetype/trope villains in the series (Golbez, Kefka, Seifer, Kuja, Setmour) all tend to have their own motivations and arcs (3/5 of that set actually do face turns, while Kefka just upends the Emperor to become the primary villain, and Seymour basically has no inherent alignment wiht Sin/YY at all). Seifer running the closest, still has arcs an interactions with Rinoa, not just Squall and an actual presence on the field.



Open world maps (and lets not get bogged down in debating whether pre-7th gen games were open world) do have that flaw. But even drawn out for instance, on a episodic timeline. Junon? Does nothing for the story, its there to (Eventually) have a setpiece where the cannon fires. They don't even bother with a logical backstory for the cannon becuse its to defend against Wutai despite an entire other continent being in between. You prettymuch jump through like 4 or 5 towns between leaving Midgar before anything of significance to the story or even a character arc happens (Barret finally gets a side bit in Corel). Its always jumped out to me that the bookending Midgar segments in the game are well paced, dense, and keep things moving. But much of the rest of the game is just sort of filler in between a bare handful of actual beats. Which could be down to the development. Starting literally on one console, then jumping to a whole new previously non-existent one and being pushed out as a launch title.

 

[meiam]

You prettymuch jump through like 4 or 5 towns between leaving Midgar before anything of significance to the story or even a character arc happens

The literal next town after leaving midgard is where the Cloud flashback happen, one of the most significant setpiece in the game... You could make a case for Junon and costa del sol not being really relevant, but their purpose is to link the two continent (and Junon is used later). After you have the gold saucer section, which is both plot relevant and important for Barret character development. You then go to cosmos memory which expand on the lore/red XIII, followed by Cloud hometown which is also really important to both Cloud/Tifa/Vincent and the main plot, then rocket town, which setup the meteor later and Cid backstory, then finally Wutai, which iirc, is optional and focus on Yuffie plot line.

Also not sure why Sephiroth having a goal translate to him not having agency.

 

[CriticalGaming]

Sephiroth has no motivations of his own though. His gameplan is pulling down a meteor to do Jenova's alien life cycle thing (cribbed entirely from Lavos identical behaviour in Crono Trigger as that goes). His main claim to even holding the villain status besides sexy shirtless goth boi status is that Cloud is so personally focused on him, but he has no agency of his own.

I'm not sure that this tracks because his motivations are to continue on with Jenova's legacy, he knows the power he and she have and through her power he gets corrupted and becomes driven to continue her legacy. That is his motivation and it's as good of a motivation as any other villain in the series. Kefka does everything for the lulz so I'm not sure how that's any better, or worse honestly.

Junon? Does nothing for the story, its there to (Eventually) have a setpiece where the cannon fires.

You're joking right? Junon is where the party inflitrates a shrina ship in disguise to cross the ocean because there are any ways for the player to do that themselves, and is a sort of comic relief part of the story to add a bit of air to things. Yes it's where the big canon kills Saphire weapon, but it's also where the party breaks into the docks to steal a submarine, and is one of the few places on the map where you can dock the fucking thing. Junon is also where Barret and Tifa are sent to be excuted when meteor is summon. Bro so much shit happens in Junon that now I know you're just taking the piss out of the game for no reason, come on.

You prettymuch jump through like 4 or 5 towns between leaving Midgar before anything of significance to the story or even a character arc happens (Barret finally gets a side bit in Corel).

After Midgar you hit Kalm where the big Cloud Flashback happens and he tells a tale of lies. Then you get the chocobo ranch which isn't really a town but introduces the mechanic of getting chocobos and serves as the base for breeding much later. Then you go through a cave and it's off to Junon. So that's...two places? Three if you count the cave.

I think you might wanna go replay the game or something because your info is all fucked up.

 

[sXeth]

I'm not sure that this tracks because his motivations are to continue on with Jenova's legacy, he knows the power he and she have and through her power he gets corrupted and becomes driven to continue her legacy. That is his motivation and it's as good of a motivation as any other villain in the series. Kefka does everything for the lulz so I'm not sure how that's any better, or worse honestly.

Sephiroth's story in 7 is essentially "he was the best of the capital S Soldiers in the war". Then he finds out he's a byproduct of monster cells and flips out and burns down a town, and gets fluke murdered by a kid. In itself, not terribly different from Kefka, although Kefka becomes a willing participant in the whole Esper-experimenting thing (while other MAgitek knights were unaware (Celes) or ignored it (Leo)).


Kefka's motivations being an insane power hungry monster (who then becames a psychopathic insane god) are of themselves, nothing special, true enough. (He's also not the first villain to "win", so did X-death, except the merged world wasn't as bleak and we mostly ignore XDeath because his name is XDEATH)


Kefka interacts with the world around him and builds antagonistic relationships with cast though. Sephiroth does not. He has a backstory which is a flashback in which the parts where he interacts with Cloud didn't actually happen. He goes crazy and burns down a town, then gets plunged into the ooze. Its been awhile but IIRC he never even sees Clouds face under the soldier helmet, so he should probably actually remember Tifa better. Cloud sees Sephiroth in all the black hooded white haired clones because of his own PTSD and hallucinations. But his own personal enmity with Sephiroth is just as fake. Zack might've had a relationship with Sephiroth to merit a rivalry, but Cloud does not.


Sephiroth can't independently carry out Jenovas legacy... because Jenova is still around and driving all the events. All the actions of the clones from kiling Shinra, to taking the black materia, to killing Aerith are Jenova's direct handiwork (often including a direct battle with Jenova immediately after). Because of their insistence on writing a convoluted twist in, Sephiroth is present for about 15 mintues for a final boss battle, endcapping a rivalry that makes no sense because he shouldn't even know who Cloud is, and Cloud getting past his PTSD and delusions was already resolved before the final chapter.


Kefka's motivations might be generally weak, Golbez and Kuya spend most of their games as Vader to the unrevealed Palpatine characters. But they weren't sitting on the toilet in the final dungeon the entire game while other people pretended to be them and characters hallucinated their existence. Ultimecia is probably the closest matching villain, but FF8 never even makes a pretense that she's personally relevant to the characters (and she's also at least the driver, not the slave)

 

[sXeth]

You're joking right? Junon is where the party inflitrates a shrina ship in disguise to cross the ocean because there are any ways for the player to do that themselves, and is a sort of comic relief part of the story to add a bit of air to things. Yes it's where the big canon kills Saphire weapon, but it's also where the party breaks into the docks to steal a submarine, and is one of the few places on the map where you can dock the fucking thing. Junon is also where Barret and Tifa are sent to be excuted when meteor is summon. Bro so much shit happens in Junon that now I know you're just taking the piss out of the game for no reason, come on.



After Midgar you hit Kalm where the big Cloud Flashback happens and he tells a tale of lies. Then you get the chocobo ranch which isn't really a town but introduces the mechanic of getting chocobos and serves as the base for breeding much later. Then you go through a cave and it's off to Junon. So that's...two places? Three if you count the cave.

I think you might wanna go replay the game or something because your info is all fucked up.

Things happening does not equal of consequence.


Kalm is meaningless because the flashback can occur anywhere. They even do so in Remake when they put it in Midgar.

Chocobo Breeding and the Submarine is all so much filler. So is the entire sidequest that revolves around getting a car (minus the brief foray into giving Barrett a backstory. I should also clarify boring tedious filler, since you can also have reasonably well done filler (as my aforementioned praise for Cosmo Canyon goes, Red XIII himself just being being a rather overall irrelevant fill out the party character in the overall story)

The execution is just another whacky logical gap. Flying past the main Shinra base that was several magnitudes closer and a more appropriate location, all to setup the cutscene of the cannon that exists for no logical reason firing (which they even redo again at Midgar anyways).

 

[CriticalGaming]

This struck a cord with me.

 

[Silvanus]

Sephiroth's story in 7 is essentially "he was the best of the capital S Soldiers in the war". Then he finds out he's a byproduct of monster cells and flips out and burns down a town, and gets fluke murdered by a kid. In itself, not terribly different from Kefka, although Kefka becomes a willing participant in the whole Esper-experimenting thing (while other MAgitek knights were unaware (Celes) or ignored it (Leo)).


Kefka's motivations being an insane power hungry monster (who then becames a psychopathic insane god) are of themselves, nothing special, true enough. (He's also not the first villain to "win", so did X-death, except the merged world wasn't as bleak and we mostly ignore XDeath because his name is XDEATH)


Kefka interacts with the world around him and builds antagonistic relationships with cast though. Sephiroth does not. He has a backstory which is a flashback in which the parts where he interacts with Cloud didn't actually happen. He goes crazy and burns down a town, then gets plunged into the ooze. Its been awhile but IIRC he never even sees Clouds face under the soldier helmet, so he should probably actually remember Tifa better. Cloud sees Sephiroth in all the black hooded white haired clones because of his own PTSD and hallucinations. But his own personal enmity with Sephiroth is just as fake. Zack might've had a relationship with Sephiroth to merit a rivalry, but Cloud does not.


Sephiroth can't independently carry out Jenovas legacy... because Jenova is still around and driving all the events. All the actions of the clones from kiling Shinra, to taking the black materia, to killing Aerith are Jenova's direct handiwork (often including a direct battle with Jenova immediately after). Because of their insistence on writing a convoluted twist in, Sephiroth is present for about 15 mintues for a final boss battle, endcapping a rivalry that makes no sense because he shouldn't even know who Cloud is, and Cloud getting past his PTSD and delusions was already resolved before the final chapter.


Kefka's motivations might be generally weak, Golbez and Kuya spend most of their games as Vader to the unrevealed Palpatine characters. But they weren't sitting on the toilet in the final dungeon the entire game while other people pretended to be them and characters hallucinated their existence. Ultimecia is probably the closest matching villain, but FF8 never even makes a pretense that she's personally relevant to the characters (and she's also at least the driver, not the slave)

I agree that Jenova is the driving force, and that Sephiroth's plan is ultimately a fulfilment of her planet-consuming designs. But I don't think there's much (if any) reason to consider him a "slave" without agency of his own. He speaks and expresses himself directly to the players several times near the end, and we see him consider Jenova his "mother".

Their goals align, Sephiroth and Jenova.

 

[FakeSympathy]

One minor thing that I always wondered about FF7 is at Wall Market Restaurant, the menu consists of Korean BBQ plate, Sushi plate, and Today's Special.



I always thought they meant bulgogi w/ rice, but the fact that something "Korean" is in the Japanese game was really surprising. I always wondered if that was some sort of localization choice, or if the Japanese version of the game also has the same name.

Because I know for a fact that the Korean-Japan relationship is still rocky, as it was back in 1997. Why would Square release anything of their "unkind" neighbor?

Actually, why does "Korea" even exist in the FF7 world to begin with?

 

[CriticalGaming]

I agree that Jenova is the driving force, and that Sephiroth's plan is ultimately a fulfilment of her planet-consuming designs. But I don't think there's much (if any) reason to consider him a "slave" without agency of his own. He speaks and expresses himself directly to the players several times near the end, and we see him consider Jenova his "mother".

Their goals align, Sephiroth and Jenova.

There is also some debate that because he is basically made from Jenova cells damn near entirely, it is possible that he and Jenova are the same thing. And Jenova IS Sephiroth in a reborn body and their goals becomes the same because of that. It's a reversion of what she had always done before getting beaten back by the ancients.

 

[CriticalGaming]

I always thought they meant bulgogi w/ rice, but the fact that something "Korean" is in the Japanese game was really surprising. I always wondered if that was some sort of localization choice, or if the Japanese version of the game also has the same name.

The OG game had a lot of translation issues, I think because localization was rushed as fuck iirc. So that's likely a translation choice, and probably a bad one.

 

[Specter Von Baren]

The OG game had a lot of translation issues, I think because localization was rushed as fuck iirc. So that's likely a translation choice, and probably a bad one.

Might I point everyone to the translation of a bunch of enemy names in SMRP which didn't come out that long before FF7. Or how Earthbound was localized in record breaking time, which is nuts given how good it is. Lots of questionable translations.

 

[CriticalGaming]

SNIP

I mean that's how you view it. I'm not going to change your mind, but I cannot stress how much I disagree. I wish more Jrpg's built up their villains like sephiroth tbh. Whether or not it's too much build up is personal preference, but I've played so many rpg's where I don't give a shit about who the bad guy is by the even. Tales games are super bad about this except Berseria, and Dragon Quest games are even worse. Which is why I couldn't tell you the story of ANY DQ game despite having played like 5 of them.

 

[Hawki]

Tales games are super bad about this except Berseria, and Dragon Quest games are even worse. Which is why I couldn't tell you the story of ANY DQ game despite having played like 5 of them.

The DQ games don't build up their villains?

Maybe they're afraid of dragon things out?

 

[Specter Von Baren]

I mean that's how you view it. I'm not going to change your mind, but I cannot stress how much I disagree. I wish more Jrpg's built up their villains like sephiroth tbh. Whether or not it's too much build up is personal preference, but I've played so many rpg's where I don't give a shit about who the bad guy is by the even. Tales games are super bad about this except Berseria, and Dragon Quest games are even worse. Which is why I couldn't tell you the story of ANY DQ game despite having played like 5 of them.

Symphonia did pretty good with building up it's villain.