The Kids are All Right

[Worgen]

That is just absolute horseshit. That conclusion doesn't follow from the premise in any logical way.

Genocide has various historical definitions, but they usually surround efforts to destroy a national or ethnic group. Indicators of this include mass displacement, ethnic cleansing, mass abduction of children, etc. The IDF is actively engaged in quite a lot of these according to all reputable international observers. And saying this is just a "fucked up war" ignores the undeniable fact that a lot of this-- mass displacement, a two-tier legal system, common extrajudicial killings-- were ongoing even in times of supposed peace.

Make a new topic, this one has already been brought off the rails enough by this. Also it sounds like you are just describing war against a force that loves guerilla tactics.

 

[Silvanus]

Make a new topic, this one has already been brought off the rails enough by this.

Post something egregious, and it will be challenged, wherever you post it.

Also it sounds like you are just describing war against a force that loves guerilla tactics.

No. An opponent using guerilla tactics doesn't somehow justify mass displacement and ethnic cleansing of noncombatants.

 

[Worgen]

Post something egregious, and it will be challenged, wherever you post it.



No. An opponent using guerilla tactics doesn't somehow justify mass displacement and ethnic cleansing of noncombatants.

Still not ethnic cleansing.

 

[Silvanus]

Still not ethnic cleansing.

In order to come to this conclusion, you're either ignorant of what's happening in Gaza and the West Bank, or ignorant of what constitutes ethnic cleansing.

Pretty much every credible independent observer and aid organisation, as well as the UN special committee and special rapporteur, have concluded as such. Even most national governments uninvolved in the conflict have concluded as such. At this stage, pretty much the only ones refusing to acknowledge it are state actors directly engaged in assisting Israel.

 

[Worgen]

In order to come to this conclusion, you're either ignorant of what's happening in Gaza and the West Bank, or ignorant of what constitutes ethnic cleansing.

Pretty much every credible independent observer and aid organisation, as well as the UN special committee and special rapporteur, have concluded as such. Even most national governments uninvolved in the conflict have concluded as such. At this stage, pretty much the only ones refusing to acknowledge it are state actors directly engaged in assisting Israel.

Make a new thread. The numbers don't point to an ethnic clensing or genocide. Still only like 46,000 dead, sounds like a lot but considering this has been going on for over a year now and the population density, those are pathetically small numbers.

 

[Thaluikhain]

In order to come to this conclusion, you're either ignorant of what's happening in Gaza and the West Bank, or ignorant of what constitutes ethnic cleansing.

Pretty much every credible independent observer and aid organisation, as well as the UN special committee and special rapporteur, have concluded as such. Even most national governments uninvolved in the conflict have concluded as such. At this stage, pretty much the only ones refusing to acknowledge it are state actors directly engaged in assisting Israel.

Also, going back a bit, pointing out this (rather obvious fact) doesn't constitute a call for a genocide against Jews.

 

[Silvanus]

Make a new thread. The numbers don't point to an ethnic clensing or genocide. Still only like 46,000 dead, sounds like a lot but considering this has been going on for over a year now and the population density, those are pathetically small numbers.

So it's "don't know what constitutes ethnic cleansing", then, combined with some rancid downplaying of the severity of what's going on.

 

[Worgen]

Also, going back a bit, pointing out this (rather obvious fact) doesn't constitute a call for a genocide against Jews.

From the river to the sea is a call to force out or kill all the jews in Israel. Sounds like you are on the side that supports that.

 

[Worgen]

So it's "don't know what constitutes ethnic cleansing", then, combined with some rancid downplaying of the severity of what's going on.

Sounds like some rancid overplaying of what's going on. You do realize they have been at this for a very long time right? Even the current conflict was directly started by Palestinians, did they not think that Israel was going to respond to oct 7th? Just because Israel has much more capacity for violence does not mean that Palestine is some down trodden innocent. Traditionally they have been much more supportive of civilian casualties then Israel was. Or do you forget the frequent suicide bombings and rocket attacks?

My point is that this is much more complicated then "Evil Jews vs Heroic Palestinians." And I know you know its not this black and white.

 

[Thaluikhain]

From the river to the sea is a call to force out or kill all the jews in Israel. Sounds like you are on the side that supports that.

Which is a jump. How about nobody does any genocide? Not doing any genocide is often not considered a terribly outlandish position to hold.

 

[Casual Shinji]

From the river to the sea is a call to force out or kill all the jews in Israel. Sounds like you are on the side that supports that.

Even if that were what it meant (which it doesn't), saying that would mean nothing seeing as it isn't happening in any way and likely never will. The fact that you take such offense to this phrase, but brush off the deaths of tens of thousands upon tens of thousands as not genocidal says enough.

Israel's foundation was ethnic cleansing - those 700.000 previous inhabitants didn't leave voluntarily.

And yes, I do side with 'from the river to the sea'. Israel as it is now needs to be removed, same as Nazi Germany and apartheid South-Africa needed to die.

 

[Worgen]

Even if that were what it meant (which it doesn't), saying that would mean nothing seeing as it isn't happening in any way and likely never will. The fact that you take such offense to this phrase, but brush off the deaths of tens of thousands upon tens of thousands as not genocidal says enough.

Israel's foundation was ethnic cleansing - those 700.000 previous inhabitants didn't leave voluntarily.

And yes, I do side with 'from the river to the sea'. Israel as it is now needs to be removed, same as Nazi Germany and apartheid South-Africa needed to die.

Sounds like you want each race to have its own little space to live in. I'm sorry integrated societies offend you so.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Sounds like you want each race to have its own little space to live in. I'm sorry integrated societies offend you so.

 

[Casual Shinji]

Sounds like you want each race to have its own little space to live in. I'm sorry integrated societies offend you so.

Of course I do, that's what being against apartheid is after all.

...

I'm going to have to seriously question certain capacities on your end.

 

[Worgen]

Of course I do, that's what being against apartheid is after all.

...

I'm going to have to seriously question certain capacities on your end.

See, I don't think you are. About 20% of the population of Israel are Arab and thats citizens of Israel. You want another Arab ethnostate, its not like Jews really live anywhere else around there.

 

[Silvanus]

Sounds like some rancid overplaying of what's going on. You do realize they have been at this for a very long time right? Even the current conflict was directly started by Palestinians, did they not think that Israel was going to respond to oct 7th?

You'll have to walk me through the logic here. You believe that if an organisation kills several hundred people, then others are justified in killing 48,000 people in return-- mostly civilians, women and children uninvolved in said organisation-- and it somehow no longer counts as ethnic cleansing?

Just because Israel has much more capacity for violence does not mean that Palestine is some down trodden innocent. Traditionally they have been much more supportive of civilian casualties then Israel was. Or do you forget the frequent suicide bombings and rocket attacks?

This is all just waffling irrelevance. The question isn't whether "Palestine is some down trodden innocent". It's whether Israel is committing ethnic cleansing, a question on which all of what you're waffling about is irrelevant: regardless of whether Hamas is bad or not, the Palestinian people can still be the subject of ethnic cleansing (a point which should be blindingly obvious). If your government is shit, it doesn't make you immune to ethnic cleansing.

My point is that this is much more complicated then "Evil Jews vs Heroic Palestinians." And I know you know its not this black and white.

You're the one here reducing this to black-and-white. You're the one simplistically insisting that ethnic cleansing somehow cannot occur if the government of the target people is bad. You're the one seemingly believing that this conflict started on October 7th without prior context. You're the one shredding context, history and nuance to demonise one people and excuse the other, even as they slaughter tens of thousands.

 

[Casual Shinji]

See, I don't think you are. About 20% of the population of Israel are Arab and thats citizens of Israel. You want another Arab ethnostate, its not like Jews really live anywhere else around there.

Yeah no, keep those excuses for the mass slaughter of an entire ethnic group going, you're doing great.

Here, I'll share some myself; Israel has a right to defend itself. Palestinians hate gay people. Jews have nowhere else to live. Oh wait, you already have that one.

 

[Worgen]

You'll have to walk me through the logic here. You believe that if an organisation kills several hundred people, then others are justified in killing 48,000 people in return-- mostly civilians, women and children uninvolved in said organisation-- and it somehow no longer counts as ethnic cleansing?

Yeah no, keep those excuses for the mass slaughter of an entire ethnic group going, you're doing great.

You could argue warcrimes, but not ethnic cleansing just by that. If it was ethnic cleansing then you would see a lot more dead then a measly 48k. The huthies managed to kill about half a million in like 6 months with mainly machetes. If Israel wanted to ethnically cleanse the Palestinians then how have they managed only 48k with the population density?

You're the one here reducing this to black-and-white. You're the one simplistically insisting that ethnic cleansing somehow cannot occur if the government of the target people is bad. You're the one seemingly believing that this conflict started on October 7th without prior context. You're the one shredding context, history and nuance to demonise one people and excuse the other, even as they slaughter tens of thousands.

You could argue that the current conflict started with trump moving the embassy to Jerusalem since that really started the current build up. But this has been going on far far longer.

 

[Silvanus]

You could argue warcrimes, but not ethnic cleansing just by that. If it was ethnic cleansing then you would see a lot more dead then a measly 48k.

Ethnic cleansing is not simply about absolute numbers dead. It is about attempting to eliminate or remove an ethnic group, including geographically. This has been done through mass displacement, the encouragement of illegal settlements, and the systematic demolishing of Palestinian medical infrastructure. Shrinking and shrinking the size of the area in which they can safely (or even quasi-safely) live, so that the land the settlers want to take can be taken-- and then fortified against return. That is ethnic cleansing.

The huthies managed to kill about half a million in like 6 months with mainly machetes.

No, no they didn't.

 

[Casual Shinji]

You could argue warcrimes, but not ethnic cleansing just by that. If it was ethnic cleansing then you would see a lot more dead then a measly 48k. The huthies managed to kill about half a million in like 6 months with mainly machetes. If Israel wanted to ethnically cleanse the Palestinians then how have they managed only 48k with the population density?

The ethnic cleansing already occured in 1948.

Now it's a genocide.

And it hasn't been "only" 48.000.