The Last Jedi, The Rise of Skywalker, and What It Means to Be a Good Sequel

[Dalisclock]

Mind, Mandalorian was great and new Star Wars movies being divorced from the Skywalkers is the best choice they can make. So I’m pretty keen to see The High Republic in all its glory.

It sounds like they're putting more effort into TV over movies for the time being. Clone Wars got another(presumably final) season to finally close out the series and bridge Attack of the clones to Revenge of the Sith. The Mandalorian so far is a bounty hunters/space western with Nary a Jedi to be seen(aside from Baby Yoda) and apparently they're doing a Rogue One prequel series to more deeply look into the early days of the rebellion, which is something I'd be fine with(then again, I felt Rogue One was the best of the new movies by far).

 

[Breakdown]

Yeah, I would NOT call TFA a creative success. It was a financial success based on nostalgia rather than any plot or characterisation. They retroactive demoted Han back to what he was before he met Leia and Luke based on nostalgic feels. Luke turned into Obi-wan, hiding away from his mistakes and turning his back on his friends and the galaxy. Leia was still a rebel. But now a general. Such character growth! She didn’t show much to PROVE she should be a general but hey... Star Wars has always been about archetypes and not about nuanced characters.

Yes the Last Jedi doesn’t match the rest of the trilogy. That’s because JJ gave Johnson a turdburger with no substance or soul. Last Jedi maybe the best of the trilogy but does not score high marks for me. I can’t even call it good. But the other two are way worse.

As for ‘saving’ the franchise... Abrams is not the person for that critical role. He’s too worried about mystery boxes to worry about plot or people. And his answers to his mysteries are usually woeful

PS Force Awakens is the worst Star Wars movie, outside the Ewok movies. I’d prefer to watch the Phantom Menace or Attack of the Clones again. At least they were trying to make a good movie then

I generally agree with you, although I'd say that Rise of Skywalker was the worst film in the trilogy.

 

[Trunkage]

I generally agree with you, although I'd say that Rise of Skywalker was the worst film in the trilogy.

Alright, maybe. I really dislike the pandering to angered fans as I felt that made it worse. And, quite possibly, Force Awakens was such a disappointment that you cant disappointment again.... Although I said that about Phantom Menace and didn't see the other two prequel movie at the cinemas. I clearly didn't learn my lesson

 

[Gordon_4]

It sounds like they're putting more effort into TV over movies for the time being. Clone Wars got another(presumably final) season to finally close out the series and bridge Attack of the clones to Revenge of the Sith. The Mandalorian so far is a bounty hunters/space western with Nary a Jedi to be seen(aside from Baby Yoda) and apparently they're doing a Rogue One prequel series to more deeply look into the early days of the rebellion, which is something I'd be fine with(then again, I felt Rogue One was the best of the new movies by far).

Well, given current trends that might not be such a dumb idea.

 

[Asita]

Alright, maybe. I really dislike the pandering to angered fans as I felt that made it worse. And, quite possibly, Force Awakens was such a disappointment that you cant disappointment again.... Although I said that about Phantom Menace and didn't see the other two prequel movie at the cinemas. I clearly didn't learn my lesson

Eh, I'd debate that characterization. The problem isn't the attempts at appealing to fans per se. The problem largely boils down to Abrams not knowing how to do so effectively. We can contrast Abrams' bringing in Palpatine for a last minute villain in Rise of Skywalker with Filoni bringing in Thrawn to serve as a central antagonist for seasons 3 and 4 of Rebels. Both decisions can adequately be described as "pandering" to the fans, but the executions were night and day. Palpatine came out of nowhere (and reeking of retcon and failure to respect the legacy of prior arcs in the franchise, artificially extending his tenure to compensate for the sequels' lack of a strong villain for its final act). By contrast, Thrawn was brought in as a natural escalation of the Empire acknowledging that the Rebel problem was more of an issue than they had believed and that they needed a more creative thinker to utterly crush it. And the way they used him managed to be a love letter to the source material without simply repeating the story beats (cough cough TFA). But that requires a delicate touch that I think Abrams has repeatedly shown that he lacks.

 

[Worgen]

The Last Jedi was the most fun I've had with a Star Wars movie in a very very long time. I used to be a fan of the series but Episode 3 ended that, I despised that movie and how it tied the new movies in aesthetically with the original ones and that just killed the franchise for me.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

Obligatory

Anyway, I've said it before and I'll say it again, no matter how bad TLJ was, just undoing everything was the wrong answer to continuing the story. That it looks so rushed only adds to the poorness of ROS. Though as full disclosure, I didn't watch ROS. I wasn't interested after TLJ, and nothing I saw on it made me think of coming back.

 

[Breakdown]

It would be really difficult to continue the story of the Last Jedi as Rian Johnson basically ended the story arc prematurely.

The Last Jedi ends with the villain firmly in control, having destroyed all organised resistance to his rule, and is firmly committed to the Dark Side. There is hope for the future though, as some of our heroes have survived and will work towards building a new resistance movement, and there's a new generation of children who can use the force and will go on to lead the fight.

That's a pretty conclusive ending, and we know that because it's essentially the same ending as Revenge of the Sith. The logical progression of the story would be a new trilogy set 10-20 years in the future with Kylo Ren as the new Emperor, Finn and Poe leading a newly assembled rebel alliance, and Rey training the next generation of Jedi.

 

[deleted20220709]

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[Hawki]

I disagree really. All of TLJ is showing us that Kylo Ren is not as committed to the dark side as he wants to think and his actions, what with killing Snoke and trying to usurp the First Order, has not gone down well with the likes of Hux. On the other side the Resistance leaders are alive, they have access to the Jedi teachings and it is established that they have allies in the Galaxy but it remains a mystery why noone showed up to help them. In many ways, this is an ending that mirrors ESB more than RotS in that the evil guys has the upper hand but have failed to fulfill their main goal (turn Luke, snuff out the resistance) while the good guys are reeling from the blow but are also committed to continuing the fight.

It would be pretty trivial to write a script in which Kylo sees the First Order try to buck under his rule, with Hux leading some kind of revolt, while Finn, Poe and Rey go around gathering allies for a final showdown. Of course, one could also re-introduce Emperor Palpatine, drag another First Order fleet into it and make everything exactly like RotJ instead of doing something novel...

I think both you and Breakdown can be correct. TLJ could work as both a trilogy ending (provided there was a continuation to it), but it can also work under the premise that the plot threads it does set up could be resolved in the following film.

One thing I don't see people discussing much is that Rise undercuts the ending of TLJ, in regards to how people, ahem, "rise" against the First Order/Final Order. In TLJ, there's the reveal that Luke's actions on Crait have inspired people across the galaxy, so what I took from that is that it would lead to an upswell of resistance against the First Order. Instead, the people get on the good guys' side because Lando goes to the core systems and rallies the people. It negates Luke's sacrifice, and undercuts a theme from TLJ - that there's strength in the hero myth, that people need heroes, even if the hero themself isn't perfect. Rise's view is that all you need is a pretty speech.

Which is arguably a shame, because one of the best lines in the film IMO is when the First Order says "they're [the attackers against Exogol] just people." It simultaniously ties in with TLJ's themes, while also casting them aside.

 

[deleted20220709]

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[Breakdown]

One thing I don't see people discussing much is that Rise undercuts the ending of TLJ, in regards to how people, ahem, "rise" against the First Order/Final Order. In TLJ, there's the reveal that Luke's actions on Crait have inspired people across the galaxy, so what I took from that is that it would lead to an upswell of resistance against the First Order.

I think it was a wise decision not to draw attention to that as Luke's death was pretty underwhelming. His hologram pretended to fight Ren for about a minute and then disappeared. As the rebels were busy running away, the only people around to witness the whole thing were members of the First Order. And then Luke actually died on another planet where again there was nobody around to witness his noble sacrifice. How would people know he was dead?

 

[Breakdown]

I disagree really. All of TLJ is showing us that Kylo Ren is not as committed to the dark side as he wants to think and his actions, what with killing Snoke and trying to usurp the First Order, has not gone down well with the likes of Hux. On the other side the Resistance leaders are alive, they have access to the Jedi teachings and it is established that they have allies in the Galaxy but it remains a mystery why noone showed up to help them. In many ways, this is an ending that mirrors ESB more than RotS in that the evil guys has the upper hand but have failed to fulfill their main goal (turn Luke, snuff out the resistance) while the good guys are reeling from the blow but are also committed to continuing the fight.

It would be pretty trivial to write a script in which Kylo sees the First Order try to buck under his rule, with Hux leading some kind of revolt, while Finn, Poe and Rey go around gathering allies for a final showdown. Of course, one could also re-introduce Emperor Palpatine, drag another First Order fleet into it and make everything exactly like RotJ instead of doing something novel...

That pitch kind of shows the weakness of TLJ though, in that the only narrative hooks for the last film to work with are that some of our heroes are still alive and that Hux really doesn't like Kylo Ren. Compare that with the ESB which set up Luke dealing with the revelation that Darth Vader is his father while Han Solo was the prisoner of Jabba the Hutt. The ultimate confrontation between an intact Rebel fleet and the Empire had also been reserved for the final film, while the TLJ had reduced the rebel alliance to about twenty people on the Millenium Falcon.

In regard to Kylo Ren, he was pretty committed to the dark side, he'd already killed his father, blew up his mother with a missile, personally killed a bunch of other people while being involved in the destruction of entire planets. He'd also had his last temptation moment, the opportunity to run off with Rey and leave everything behind, and he chose power instead. Short of force strangling puppies to death, I'm not sure what else Ren could do to show his commitment to being a total dick. His story arc was pretty much over by the end of TLJ. I guess you could have turned him into a Macbeth like character in the third film, but that might be a difficult sell for the Disney executives.

 

[Asita]

I think both you and Breakdown can be correct. TLJ could work as both a trilogy ending (provided there was a continuation to it), but it can also work under the premise that the plot threads it does set up could be resolved in the following film.

One thing I don't see people discussing much is that Rise undercuts the ending of TLJ, in regards to how people, ahem, "rise" against the First Order/Final Order. In TLJ, there's the reveal that Luke's actions on Crait have inspired people across the galaxy, so what I took from that is that it would lead to an upswell of resistance against the First Order. Instead, the people get on the good guys' side because Lando goes to the core systems and rallies the people. It negates Luke's sacrifice, and undercuts a theme from TLJ - that there's strength in the hero myth, that people need heroes, even if the hero themself isn't perfect. Rise's view is that all you need is a pretty speech.

Which is arguably a shame, because one of the best lines in the film IMO is when the First Order says "they're [the attackers against Exogol] just people." It simultaniously ties in with TLJ's themes, while also casting them aside.

I think that's part of what makes it feel more like a trilogy ending than a "part 2 of 3". The final moments about inspiring people reads very much like a final bow. The fire fades, but the embers will light a new one, so to speak. Or, to borrow from Doctor Who (as the tenth Doctor was about to regenerate into the eleventh), "This song is ending, but the story never ends." See also everyone being inspired by William Wallace's resistance in the final moments of Braveheart, and the story of 300 being used to inspire the next generation of Spartans to rise up against the Persians. When the story starts waxing lyrical about what an inspiration the character(s) have been, it is so often an assurance that while they didn't accomplish their goal, they have accomplished great things that made the journey worthwhile, even paving the way for the next generation to accomplish what they could not.

And mind you, contextually, this is happening against the backdrop of the Resistance being effectively wiped out, their expansive fleet and resources reduced to maybe a few dozen people crammed into one light freighter. That does not read "they bloodied our nose, but we'll turn this around and give them what-for in the next battle" (as in Empire Strikes Back). That reads "They've won for now. We need to go to ground, rethink our strategy, and help shepherd the next generation so they'll be able to do what we failed to" (as in Revenge of the Sith).

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

The new trilogy is just by-the-numbers committee crap. Everything that happens in them is just there to help sell them.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

In regard to Kylo Ren, he was pretty committed to the dark side, he'd already killed his father, blew up his mother with a missile, personally killed a bunch of other people while being involved in the destruction of entire planets. He'd also had his last temptation moment, the opportunity to run off with Rey and leave everything behind, and he chose power instead.

Nah, his wingman shot a missile at Leia when Ren hesitated.
I look at the end of TLJ as one of those "won the battle, lost the war" sort of deals. Yes, the current forces of the Resistance were crippled, but their ending morale was actually pretty high. Meanwhile, the First Order "won" after taking hugely disproportionate losses and their badass new boss Kylo Ren got punked on live GalaxyTV by living legend and Jedi master Luke Skywalker. Add in the deleted scene of Phasma getting outted as the one that lowered the shields on Starkiller base, and you've got a galaxy that just got shown that the First Order was powerful but fallible. Add in a few Finn-empowered mutinies and defections and we're looking at a prime comeback story.

Well, until Palpatine announces his return in Fortnight, shows up with an egg crate of Snoke clones and several starfleets worth of Star Destroyers with underslung Death Star lasers, etc...

 

[immortalfrieza]

One of the most nonsensical things that I hear about The Last Jedi and typically in defense of Rise of Skywalker is that TLJ left nowhere to go, so RoS just HAD to end up the way it did. That is... I don't even know a word for how absurd that is. Especially in comparison of how RoS actually did go it could've gone anywhere except where it actually did and still work well enough.

There's so much that happened in TLJ that they could've followed up on. For just one example, the Resistance is reduced down to a handful in an old smuggler's ship. The Resistance building themselves back up from that should've taken years of work and could've been the basis for an entire TV series on it's own not to mention a movie. Instead Rise of Skywalker just puts them right back to pre-TLJ levels if not stronger like nothing had happened without even a handwave. Rose and Finn's romance, Kylo Ren both leading the First Order and having lost all respect from it, Rey being the "Last Jedi"... if anything there's far too much to conclude in a single movie.

So much potential, all tossed away to act like TLJ never existed because of trying to appease people who never would have been satisfied anyway.

 

[Dalisclock]

One of the most nonsensical things that I hear about The Last Jedi and typically in defense of Rise of Skywalker is that TLJ left nowhere to go, so RoS just HAD to end up the way it did. That is... I don't even know a word for how absurd that is. Especially in comparison of how RoS actually did go it could've gone anywhere except where it actually did and still work well enough.

There's so much that happened in TLJ that they could've followed up on. For just one example, the Resistance is reduced down to a handful in an old smuggler's ship. The Resistance building themselves back up from that should've taken years of work and could've been the basis for an entire TV series on it's own not to mention a movie. Instead Rise of Skywalker just puts them right back to pre-TLJ levels if not stronger like nothing had happened without even a handwave. Rose and Finn's romance, Kylo Ren both leading the First Order and having lost all respect from it, Rey being the "Last Jedi"... if anything there's far too much to conclude in a single movie.

So much potential, all tossed away to act like TLJ never existed because of trying to appease people who never would have been satisfied anyway.

Yeah, that's what gets me too. Especially since TLJ is basically taking TFA to its logical conclusion of "The Empire/First Order reigns supreme" and the "Rebellion/Resistance is hurting and in hiding" and rather then continue with that ROS decided to discard the premise, despite being what TFA(also an Abrams movie) set up to begin with.

Seriously, JJ, if you didn't want the Resisty to be reduced down to almost nothing against an almighty First Order, why did you throw out the victory of ROTJ and not bother to explain how the First Order somehow built a massive fleet/mega death star/new empire under everyone's noses so they could be the dominant power again? Oh wait, because Copying ANH was pretty much your entire MO......

I haven't seen ROS yet but since it's going on be streaming soon I'm going to give it a watch. Lots of alcohol will be involved.

 

[zoey]

Rise of Skywalker was definitely not the best, but it kept moving at a good pace. What I really liked was Rey's character through the three movies. Leia's line - 'Rey, never be afraid of who you are.' was my absolute favorite.

 

[Breakdown]

One of the most nonsensical things that I hear about The Last Jedi and typically in defense of Rise of Skywalker is that TLJ left nowhere to go, so RoS just HAD to end up the way it did. That is... I don't even know a word for how absurd that is. Especially in comparison of how RoS actually did go it could've gone anywhere except where it actually did and still work well enough.

There's so much that happened in TLJ that they could've followed up on. For just one example, the Resistance is reduced down to a handful in an old smuggler's ship. The Resistance building themselves back up from that should've taken years of work and could've been the basis for an entire TV series on it's own not to mention a movie. Instead Rise of Skywalker just puts them right back to pre-TLJ levels if not stronger like nothing had happened without even a handwave. Rose and Finn's romance, Kylo Ren both leading the First Order and having lost all respect from it, Rey being the "Last Jedi"... if anything there's far too much to conclude in a single movie.

So much potential, all tossed away to act like TLJ never existed because of trying to appease people who never would have been satisfied anyway.

The Last Jedi really didn't leave anywhere for ROS to go. Yes, there were some big world changing consequences that could be explored, but they should have been saved for the final movie, to set up the next trilogy or a new TV series. They couldn't be wrapped up in a single movie in a satisfying way.

Rian Johnson prematurely ended the story arc.