The Last Thing We Need is Developers Policing Mods

[weirdee]

Three for three on that strawman. It's almost as if you were trying to make points directed at me.

Oh, it's good to know that I'm getting better.
And no. There's too many people thinking that everyone with a somewhat pale skin is a direct descendant of the American slave owners. Making points at them individually just does not worth it. So I'll just scold you for dropping the w-word like it means something.
It really does not. Avoid using it in the future.

The type of logic you are attempting to employ is devoid of any actual context that would justify you ever saying any of those words you just combined as a legitimate grievance even if we were to ignore the past couple of thousands of years that have happened. You are trying to play at a game that isn't a game much less something that would ever benefit any party, especially yourself or the vague definition of the group of people you consider yourself to be defending or speak for, and I would recommend you not repeat such an ill-considered attempt at pretending to participate in "the discourse" in the company of more opportunistic and less sympathetic individuals than me.

There are few things that I have more distaste for than people who consider themselves the target of criticism that has nothing to do with them, but they choose to believe that throwing themselves in the path of the conversation gives them the right to participate in it.

 

[weirdee]

The type of logic you are attempting to employ is devoid of any actual context that would justify you ever saying any of those words you just combined as a legitimate grievance even if we were to ignore the past couple of thousands of years that have happened. You are trying to play at a game that isn't a game much less something that would ever benefit any party, especially yourself or the vague definition of the group of people you consider yourself to be defending or speak for, and I would recommend you not repeat such an ill-considered attempt at pretending to participate in "the discourse" in the company of more opportunistic and less sympathetic individuals than me.

This does not really say anything to me, or prove your point in some way.
So I stand my ground. Stop saying "white" like it means something. It does not.

The claims you have made do not have anything to do with this thread's conversation topic, and the more you attempt to force the matter, the more credibility slips from your fingers that you can't afford to lose.

If we were to indulge in your fantasy, by your logic, if the group that is commonly referred to as "white" does not actually exist, you are defending nobody, including yourself, and the hill you have chosen to die on is in the middle of a desert where nobody can hear you. If you want to be the fool, you are free to do so, but I am done with this matter.

 

[Elfgore]

From what I understand, the Workshop has set rules that you have to agree to before placing a mod on there. I could see hateful and discriminatory things be included in that. Hell, Creative Assembly straight said they will be policing their mods on the Total War: Warhammer workshop like crazy due to their license agreement. A Lord of the Rings mod could put them in deep shit and prevent mod support for future titles in the series.

I do agree with the premise though. The community should be the one's to "police mods" with votes and downloads.

 

[Dollabillyall]

I want my pornographic/politically incorrect/grossly offensive mods... and I'm getting them even if it means cracking the game etc.

 

[Fdzzaigl]

Agreed, even when a mod is doing something really "wrong" it isn't up to publishers to play the moral compas. Even if their intentions are good it opens up the potential for major problems for modders.

Cus people's feelings are quite easily hurt nowadays.

 

[Kahani]

The Steam Workshop also lets you rate the quality of mods, and even report mods that you find objectionable.

The mod was removed for being objectionable, and you just gave the ability to report objectionable mods as one of the reasons that shouldn't have been done. It seems a bit odd to use the fact that mods are policed as an argument for why mods shouldn't be policed.

However, this does nicely highlight the silliness of the "mods shouldn't be policed" claims. Not only are mods already policed, and have always been, but they absolutely should be. This is precisely why it is possible to report mods and why no-one has ever complained about the ability to do so. If someone makes a mod with illegal content, it should be removed. If someone steals assets from elsewhere and posts it as their own work, it should be removed. There are plenty of scenarios where the vast majority of people would agree that mods need policing, and that policing has been carried entirely uncontroversially for a long time. The actual issue here is nothing to do with the general question of policing mods, but simply whether this specific mod actually deserved or needed it.

 

[Zerotwo]

The claims you have made do not have anything to do with this thread's conversation topic, and the more you attempt to force the matter, the more credibility slips from your fingers that you can't afford to lose.

If we were to indulge in your fantasy, by your logic, if the group that is commonly referred to as "white" does not actually exist, you are defending nobody, including yourself, and the hill you have chosen to die on is in the middle of a desert where nobody can hear you. If you want to be the fool, you are free to do so, but I am done with this matter.

What I can and cannot afford is for me to judge.
So how many of these games you claim to be filled with "whites" feature Czech people? Russians? Germans? Tartar? Romanians? Croatian? Polish?

You're mistaken. They don't have their own culture, history, and heritage. They are just white. All people with white skin share American culture (oh wait white people don't have culture of their own- they always steal it) and Eastern Europeans who move to America in the 90's are equally culpable for slavery as the unwitting descendants of slave-owners. The word slave did not derive from "Slav" that is just a myth because only non-white people can be slaves. The entire world must focus on "what white America did" and no other white culture should be depicted without racial inclusivity since all white people are American and thus should depict American values.

edit: Oh yeah, Poe's law. Guess I should say the above paragraph is hyperbolic sarcasm.

Yeah, so about that strawman... I'm sure you both can deduce that weirdee's representation in games analogy was more to point out the game industry is not exempt from larger existing socio-political schisms and that it has bearing on the effects/reaction towards the mods in question. The jump in logic to this accusing "white" people as a group of being direct descendants of American slave owners (for whatever bearing you think this specific biological connection holds) as well as somehow stereotyping all "whites" as americans, excluding the diversity of the broader "caucasian" (diffuse term, I know, you seem more focused on European) group is your own fabrication (or deliberate simplification of argument, if you are going the strawman route).

slo:
Oh, it's good to know that I'm getting better.
And no. There's too many people thinking that everyone with a somewhat pale skin is a direct descendant of the American slave owners. Making points at them individually just does not worth it. So I'll just scold you for dropping the w-word like it means something.
It really does not. Avoid using it in the future.

If you dislike being associated with "American slave owners" there are plenty of other displays of totalitarian abuse of power perpetrated by "whites" disproportionately against minorities. Concentration camps, the Russian Gulag, English/French/German/Dutch/Portuguese imperial expansionism (to name a few), Scandinavian thrall slave system, the Roman Empire, slave trade in Greece etc. etc. Some of these definitely have representation in games too!

Or better yet, let me tell you a secret. As a "white" person, you don't have to feel guilty at all . If you are not feeling personal guilt, it helps you realize that people are not trying to target you whenever they bring up systemic social issues in society . Being in a position of power based on class/race/gender is not something anyone chose or has responsibility for, but lashing out at people for pointing out inequalities and having a discussion is.

 

[Lightspeaker]

Removing something when identical similar mods are available is hypocrisy.

Removing something because there was hate speech in the description for it is appropriate. The fact it was restored after the removal of that is equally appropriate.

However, this does nicely highlight the silliness of the "mods shouldn't be policed" claims. Not only are mods already policed, and have always been, but they absolutely should be. This is precisely why it is possible to report mods and why no-one has ever complained about the ability to do so. If someone makes a mod with illegal content, it should be removed. If someone steals assets from elsewhere and posts it as their own work, it should be removed.

You're seriously trying to put removing something that can actually result in someone being prosecuted (being illegal) or someone actively stealing someone else's work alongside removing something because it made someone feel uncomfortable? You're trying to say that those first two scenarios are in any way comparable to the latter?

Really?

...okay I'm out. This thread has gone to all levels of silliness at this point.

 

[maninahat]

I investigated somewhat. According to Paradox employees at Reddit the issue was the mod description, which apparently promoted an agenda they didn't want to be associated with:

We saw the mod, thought it wasn't in very good taste, but let it remain. Then the creator of the mod decided to update the description of the mod to promote an "agenda" not related to computer games at all, and this was being clearly displayed on our product page. We decided it was a step too far and removed it. Eurogamer did not do a good job describing what exactly it was we removed.

Source:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Stellaris/comments/4ktt2l/paradox_pulls_discriminatory_stellaris_mod_that/

That seems reasonable enough to me of Paradox. It's one thing to post a nude mod on a website that potential customers aren't going to immediately see. It is another when that mod is on steam and happens to appear on your product page for the World to see.

On the question of policing mods, I think it is impossible to stop modders creating inappropriate mods, however it is perfectly appropriate for a mod outlet to get rid of the really bad mods as they discover them. Similarly, The Escapist can't stop people writing awful things on the internet, but I would still fully expect Moderators to police the website forums.

 

[Magmarock]

To me this is just another reason why I think Steam is rubbish. First they tried to monetize mods now they try to censer and control them. moddb FTW. Use real modding sites not this Steam workshop nonsense.

 

[Veylon]

I don't really use steam workshop mods but people if you are ever so desperate to make sure that there are only lily white people in space then couldn't the modders just put it somewhere else?

Yes, you absolutely can. Mods are zip files that you drop in your documents folder. All the Workshop does is drop them in there for you. Nobody who wants to make or use an Aryan mod is going to have any real trouble doing so. No legal action is being taken against anyone. Nobody is being locked out of anything.

Paradox may well have made the wrong decision, but the actual impact is negligible.

 

[Piorn]

If you don't get the choice to be racist or not, then not being racist has no moral value.
How am I supposed to feel smug about all the degenerates on the internet when I can't ignore their content, because it's removed before I can ignore it?

 

[Zerotwo]

Even with a Poe's law note I still must explain I was being sarcastic and hyperbolic. Then witness a nonexistent straw man being attacked as such.

weirdee's representation seemed to me to be nothing but antagonistic blather not worthy of direct acknowledgement or reply from me. If there was a point in it, I missed it through the inflammatory wording.

However, not every white person had anything to do with slavery. Not everyone of African descent in America has ancestors enslaved by Americans. Trevor Noah and Barack Obama neither have ancestors that were enslaved by Americans. Slavery is not just a white black issue- its a humankind throughout history issue. How about them Aztec sacrificial slaves? How about many nations and powers throughout history. People can be absolutely horrible if you give them a chance.

If we wish to portray groups for their atrocities, every race and practically every nation is guilty of something horrible. The common narrative of "white people bad" ignores the slavery rape murder and other atrocities performed by africans, asians, and practically every group of humans that obtained power. The fact that you only display atrocities performed by white people while ignoring allt he atrocities performed against white people or by non-white people against each other (study history EVERY race has done horrific acts. Stop being racist and trying to put the onus on one group) What about the fact that slavery was legal in parts of Africa until 2007?

If you wish to associate white people with the worst of their atrocities, then we should associate all groups with their worst acts. No one comes out clean. History is practically a very long horrible snuff film if you wish to be grim and fatalistic about it.

Why associate them with the thrall herders and not the thralls themselves? The accusations of unfair demonizing seem to have some merit because of the imbalance of portrayal. Those who had ancestors who were yeomen or indentured servants were not the group that benefited from slavery. In fact, their quality of life was reduced because they had to compete with slaves. Poor white people suffered from the actions of the rich then got painted with the same brush as they were.
If you want people to stop getting so defensive when certain issues are addressed then perhaps you need to work on how offensively those issues are brought up. People act like they've been blamed if you word things like they're at fault. The issue of blame and retribution comes up so often when discussions of systematic inequity appear that to be defensive is logical.

To try and give people crap for not representing minorities in a European game is ignorant and almost racist. Not every game with depictions of white people is about American white people. Holding games depicting Europe (or fictional Europe-like areas) to the same standard of diversity as a game featuring Americans (or fictional portrayals of organizations with american values) shows the issues and ignorance at hand.


Love to see a game where you have to fight off the North African Barbary pirates who liked to go to small European villages and murder or enslave the entire populace. Ever wonder why there were white sex slaves in North African harems? Oh wait, I forgot, only white people are evil and took slaves.
Trying to point out that other disenfranchised people have systemic power because of the color of their skin but ignoring the fact that they are disenfranchised is ignorance. Not everyone enjoys those privileges equally. Saying that being a male is automatically a position of power ignores the fact that we are statistically more likely to be the victims of non-reciprocated domestic violence, die earlier, twice as likely to go to prison for the same crime as a woman, and get significantly longer sentences. All the other imbalances such as pay gap and professional employment (which is rapidly changing due to the fact that more women a re in college) are real issues but I think they aren't more of a concern than the prison and death issues men face. To say women are more oppressed is to ignore what men suffer and vice versa. Let both groups deal with their various hurdles without assigning systemic blame. This shouldn't be oppression olympics or a contest. You can bring up your systemic issues but to portray them solely as the fault of one group is to ignore the back and forth of history.

If you give one of those mass dissection point by point replies, don't wait for a reply.

Companies have the right to alter/censor/regulate/police their workshop. I don't think they should have the obligation (besides basic copyright infringement, illegality etc) and certainly shouldn't be held accountable for what a third party did as a mod. Its like holding Matt Groening accountable for every viewpoint on a Bart Simpsons t-shirt, especially the bootleg ones. I feel bad for Paradox. It looks like they're trying to please everyone, which usually assuages no one. They seemed hypocritical for a bit, but then allowed the guy to put his mod back up after he pitched a fit about the seeming hypocrisy and removed the links. Trying to make everyone happy ends up having the opposite effect.

Okey, let me try to give you a slightly shorter answer then, so that you might have the time to reply if you so wish. Let me reiterate that the Strawman in question is the very association of the term "white" with slavery, historic oppression and more specifically as an attempt to demonize white males as some kind of "american racist stereotype" that Slo made and you follow up on. This association was not made by wierdee in the previous posts and is an erroneous (and aggressive) simplification of what was actually being said. For an illustration, see your own reaction:

Terminalchaos
weirdee's representation seemed to me to be nothing but antagonistic blather not worthy of direct acknowledgement or reply from me. If there was a point in it, I missed it through the inflammatory wording.

I am truly sorry for omitting disclaimers about sarcasm in my post and to clarify; the examples of non-american slavery was purely a play on the aforementioned associations. I want to reinforce that I have no wish to associate white people with the worst of their atrocities, that is once again an erroneous assumption on your part (nice try at plurium interrogationum though, maybe next time?). I think that most of your argumentation about unfair portrayal of racial atrocities only serves to reinforce my original point, so I'll post it again:

Zerotwo
Or better yet, let me tell you a secret. As a "white" person, you don't have to feel guilty at all . If you are not feeling personal guilt, it helps you realize that people are not trying to target you whenever they bring up systemic social issues in society . Being in a position of power based on class/race/gender is not something anyone chose or has responsibility for, but lashing out at people for pointing out inequalities and having a discussion is.

You will also find that the sentences above nowhere mentions that I think being a male is automatically a position of power. Again, you are wrongly simplifying my argument so that you can attack it (fool me twice...). I did make an assumption about you/slo as being white (though none about gender), which does not matter much for the sake of my argument and for that I apologize.

Terminalchaos
To try and give people crap for not representing minorities in a European game is ignorant and almost racist. Not every game with depictions of white people is about American white people. Holding games depicting Europe (or fictional Europe-like areas) to the same standard of diversity as a game featuring Americans (or fictional portrayals of organizations with american values) shows the issues and ignorance at hand.

I am honestly not sure if you are referring to me or to Slo's earlier post here. As explained above I was making a jape at his argument about European representation in games simply because it had nothing whatsoever to do with the arguments he was trying to respond to from wierdee. If you think this makes him ignorant and almost racist I think that is a very rash conclusion, I merely thought it showed off poor rhetoric. If you think it makes me look ignorant and almost racist I think you have entirely misread my post, I was certainly not trying to give people crap for not representing minorities.

In conclusion, I am not going to respond point for point to any of your arguments about racial politics or equality, as the entire point of my original post was questioning why you brought it up in the first place. I hope that I have made myself more clear and that there is no more need of misrepresenting what I have said.

 

[CaitSeith]

Why does that developer have control of the people's mods anyway?. I thought that mods were not policed, hence all the variety. Is this an exception with the mentioned developer?

If a mod brings them any legal problems (like another company threatening with legal action), then they should be able to police them in the store. If you can get sued for it, sooner or later you will be.

 

[CaitSeith]

I don't think developers should police mods, but I can understand why they would, expecially on Steam workshop. Somewhere like Nexus, you have to actually seeks it out, so people going to it can be expected to know what to expect. Steam though... that's the storefront, there's not much separation between "official" and "fan" content. Alot of negative press could seep from one to the other.

Plus, I'm sure many developers still remember GTA's "Hot Coffee" incident.

The Hot Coffee content was created by the developers; the mod just gave access to it. That fell down in the grayest area of who was responsible for what (and grey areas are a popular ground for legal battles).