Thanks for your patience, my internet crapped itself & the one iv been using is slow. Infact I didnt even think my last reply actually came through. Anyway lets give this a try.
[/quote]Hate to be the one to have to tell you this, but "Darwin's Black Box" has no standing in the scientific community which considers the claims made to be disingenuous pseudoscience, making use of quote mines, cherry picking data, and championing a false dichotomy which would have us believe that if evolution was rejected one day Creationism/Intelligent Design would be the only alternative. Additionally, of the 5 people Behe cites as having peer reviewed the book, 3 claimed that Behe's conclusions lacked support and a fourth claimed that he'd never even gotten to read the book.[/quote]
My copy is the 10th aniversary edition where he added & edited some chapters. Dont know about the peer reviews but the information about the examples he uses & his revealing of their irreducible complexity are whats really important.
Also, for those who seem to lack understanding of what irreducible complexity is, its in the name. Irreducible complexity=a complex system where any reduction either negatively affects or shuts down the system completely. Car engines run off the same principle & its also why we have certain diseases & conditions. Behe highlights how such systems, especially those necessary for life, cannot arise in a step by step fasion even with by proxy mechanisms (& naturally. If by proxy mechanisms did the job satisfactorally then they wouldnt need to be replaced)
[/quote]Additionally, while it is true that DNA has a 'proofreading' mechanism, it is not a perfect mechanism and does not work to fix inherited mutations. In fact, that specific claim is rather curious considering that if a mutation is inherited then the checking mechanism will actually work to ensure it stays there, as the only genetic code it's ever known is the one with that mutation. In order for the concept to work in the first place it would have to try to recreate the DNA of the parents rather than the individual's genetic code, which excludes the concept by being identical to neither parent. Of course, the entire point has a weird base in the first place as a mutation is quite literally a transcription error that the checking mechanism missed in the first place.[/quote]
I had a book which explained an experiment where fruit flies were bread with the genes for their eyes removed & interbred to produce eyeles offspring. The 7th or 8th generation started producing flies with eyes & genetic examination revealled that each generation was gradually repairing the missing gene & then passing it onto their offspring. I cant remember what the book was but I originally thought was darwins black box until I went to look for it again. But anyway, true it can miss a few bases which may occur on the non-coding regions, atleast thats my theory anyway. But a few are hardly the necessary amount to produce a protein with an entirely different function or chain length let alone the complex that it functions with or its reguatory systems. You should seriously check out protein structures in greater depth to understand what im getting at.
[/quote] Well first of all, I'd like to point out that you look like you've just contradicted yourself, basically saying that a beneficial mutation doesn't necessarily benefit the organism. By definition, if something is beneficial then it works in favor of the organism. Best I can figure, what you're trying to argue is a beneficial trait that comes with some kind of drawback in another area that affects the organism to a lesser extent (I qualify it thus because if the drawback affected the organism to a greater extent than the trait they improved on, the mutation would by definition not be beneficial). If so, I'd point out that the idea is not at odds with evolutionary theory, which actually expects such a thing. It's known as specialisation. Do note, we have a variety of species which can survive in any number of enviroments, and those which are so specialized that any change in their environment threatens their very existence (the latter of which are often used as early indicators of environmental change and/or the impact of humans on a given environment).[/quote]
Not really contradicting just speculating an idea but it wouldnt work anyway. Active sites need those R-groups for molecule orientation & because glucose monomers are bonded by both their hydroxyl groups it would require multiple steps withing that reaction which wont successfully happen with random colisions.
Because nearly every metabolic & biochemical pathway interweave & either work with or around each other a change can indeed affect one or more other systems which is a draw back (& why doctors ask about one area of our bodies when a condition affects an entirely different part). Evolution doesnt account for why ALL components co-operate with each other within all organisms. All species have a degree of adaptability due to inbuilt mechanisms that accompany the change. Specialisation is either due to a loss of some mechanisms (which must have slipped under the polymerases enzymes) or they die when taken from their environment suddenly rather than gradually. The former would be a dead end for evolution.
[/quote]So then you agree that natural selection tends to cull the traits that put the organism at a disadvantage in its environment and favor the ones that conver an advantage while neutral mutations are neither selected for or against?[/quote]
Yep. Sorry I thought I mentioned that earlier. I try to because somehow a rumour spread around suggesting that creationists dont believe in natural selection for some reason.
[/quote]darkstarangel:
It also cannot direct benign mutations, which includes beneficial mutations as an organ or gland needs to be complete for it to fulfill its function.
Mmm, not true. This is based on a common misconception that any given organ has to appear fully formed and that the eventual trait has to be directly related to its prececessors. Honestly though I think the video I priorly linked (Qualiasoup's Irreducible Complexity Cut Down to Size) addresses both concepts quite well. (To save you some time, the former is exemplified starting at around 1:10 into the video, the latter starting at around 7:47). I know, it's not the exact argument you were making, but the base concept behind it was distinctly similar.[/quote]
Ill check the video when I have time to kill. I dont know where you were going here but organs perform multiple functions & kind of need to actually work to do its job. Mutations arent directed as they dont affect the phenotype in anyway so nothing is going to gide its direction. Each transitional mutation needs something to decide which mutations to keep & which to discard which can only happen in the genotype, otherwise all organisms should be full of tissues, glands & organs that havent quite made it yet if at all.
[/quote]Call me crazy, but it sounds to me like you're making heavy use of a form of hindsight bias here, likely combined with the aforementioned issue of assuming a lack of preceding traits.
[If it was a homozygous trait as you are suggesting then it would be exhibited in the source population. Assuming that a trait needs to be homozygous to be expressed and both parents are carriers by virtue of being heterozygous for it, then 50% of their offspring could be expected to be heterozygous like their parents, 25% would be homozygous for the trait and thus express it, and 25% would lack it entirely. This does not mesh with your proposed explanation of the source population being heterozygous for it. The discovery's nature was so novel specifically because it was never exhibited in the ancestral population, which incidentally still exists on the island Pod Kopiste. In proper context, '1 percent of all known species' doesn't mean 'within every species 1% of the population has this trait'. It means '1% of the species have this trait'.][/quote]
Hindsight bias? Please elaborate. And I can only assume a lack of preceeding traits if the traits arent present, but only assume.
Oh, and your crazy.
[/quote]Again, I addressed that. The meaning was that 1% of reptilian species had the trait, not that 1% of every species of scaled reptiles had it[/quote]
Acknowledged & thanks for the detail. It still doesnt affect my original point but I always appreciate detail.
[/quote]Now you're just being unreasonable and making use of a fallacy known as argument from ignorance ("This statement is true because it cannot be 100% proven false"...though to your credit you aren't taking it to the "I'm right" extreme). Were I to draw a comparison to the argument, I think I'd have to go with the dismissal of a doctor saying that his patient's tests indicated he didn't have cancer, on the grounds that the doctor obviously didn't test every single cell in the patient's body for it.[/quote]
Actually Im perfectly reasonable & it was perfectly valid reasoning. This is why we make such discoveries because we investigate. I wonder if those lizards on that island would have been checked for caecal valves if their physical appearence hadnt changed & merely resembled the ancestral species. But its true that in science have to apply assumptions simply because its cheap, easy & cost effective & why alot alot of discoveries are made by accident.
[/quote]darkstarangel:
[If you want to go that route, then the classification system itself is superficial as it is primarily based on physical traits.]
That was my original point.
You do realize that by doing so you put life under one category, which effectively emphasizes common ancestry, do you not?[/quote]
Only if you interpret it that way. I never outrightly stated that just that alot of organisms share similar physical & biochemical traits. As a creationist I can just as easily interpet it as common design as much as darwinists interpret it to common descent.
[/quote]My point WAS model shifts. I was going to use it earlier but you originally used the example.
Oh, I thought you were dismissing my example on the grounds that the Rutherford model I showed supplanting the pudding model ended up itself being replaced by the bohr model (which incidentally does bear a noticeable resemblance to the Rutherford Model, refining the details of it instead of starting from the ground up). I apologize for misunderstanding your gist then.[/quote]
Your cool. It was a top example too.
[/quote]...reproducing/existing at the cellular level what occurs at the atomic level to make it happen.
You mean in the same sense that making synthetic fibers does?[/quote]
Well, I meant that the chemical properties are what makes everything happen at the cellular level but I cant remember what the original comment was about. I suppose you could consider synthetic fibres as a biochemical function since humans make them but thats delving into the external & tinkering around philosophical borders if anyone cares to go there.
[/quote] I do believe Dinwar addressed that part in post 749.[/quote]
He did but he didnt. I wasnt just talking about HOX genes & his example was a man made one. Im talking about the theory that genes jumping from one chromosome to another & why would they. They're also sex chromosomes too so they dont pair either.
[/quote]Well thank you for correcting my use of an outdated term. And while it is true that a good portion has been shown to have function of some sort, there is evidence that suggests that portions of the DNA have no current function (They may or may not have had function in ancestral populatons). One of the more famous examples leading to this conclusion would be this.[/quote]
Not just outdated term but outdated paper. That was written in 2004 a year after 'Junk' DNA was discovered to be purposeful & also when everyone was seriously hesitant to let that concept go. One of my lecturers works at the garven institute where he works on non-protein coding DNA to find cancers, he says its all regulatory & from his diagrams bloody complicated too.
However this example was a demonstration of critical analysis which every scientist must do & I as a scientist in training am practising. We are allowed to question evolution so long as we use evidence, knowledge & predictions to do so. Thats even how evolutionary theories are devised & rejected in the first place. What I have been doing is no crime nor is it ignorant as some on this forum have accused me of.
Criminal, no. With regards to this particular topic though ignorance being the source of objections is prevalent enough to almost be considered a constant.
Hardly ignorant, iv ignored nothing. Just because you disagree with a person who objects to your opinion doesnt make them ignorant.
[/quote]Well you're getting there. You just forgot the
before the post. Personally though, I'd just click the 'quote' button until the post's text shows up in the reply box, then copy/past the opening bit (which, for this particular post, would look like this:
Asita said:
) at the start of any section you want in the quote and [ /quote] (minus the space, of course) at the end of the segment you want in the quote. Repeat as many times as needed for a given post to divide it up.
Thanks again. Lets see how it goes this time.