The misinterpretation of evolution

[oktalist]

You seem to think religious concepts being taught in schools is something new.

It is if they are taught in science class.

Ah, I see. Well I suppose THAT argument isn't worth maintaining if you're going to dodge my point entirely.

What point do you claim I have dodged, please?

I've been a Christian all my life and so I've grown up detesting evolution.

Why should that be? Even Pope John Paul II said evolution is probably true.

What he said was evolution and Christianity are compatible, which I do agree with.

Pius XII said they were compatible. John Paul II said there is "significant argument in favour of" evolution. But it doesn't matter, my point was that they are compatible, in reply to Joe who seemed to be saying they are not.

Well, actually the basis of Darwin's evolution was to rebel against the idea that God created the world.

That's not true at all. When he set off on his voyage with the Beagle, Darwin was a devout Anglican looking forward to being ordained as a priest upon his return. He never set out to rebel against anything, to disprove anything. It was only after he had begun to formulate the theory of natural selection, and see more of the world and of human nature, that he started to come to the realisation that, in his view, it did not necessitate a divine creator. And he never denied that God existed.

That it all just randomly happened with nothing overseeing it.

Natural selection is not random.

So most Christians reject the idea because of it.

I don't agree. I think if you look at a broad sample of Christians from around the world, you'll find that most of them accept evolution. The Anglican, Methodist and Catholic Churches all officially support it. Even in the USA, famous for Christian fundamentalism, more than 40% of Christians agree that evolution is the best explanation for the origins of human life (source [http://pewforum.org/]).

 

[Hobohodo]

I GENUINELY want to see any SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE against the theory of evolution.

And I mean evidence against, not holes in the theory of evolution, of which there are a admittedly a few.

Wouldnt you need a hole in the theory, to disprove it?
Here [http://www.bibleplus.org/creation/evidence.htm]

There is also evidence on both sides, I just hate the fact that many people try to force their beliefs on others, that may not be the best choice of words, but you know exactly what I mean, I see allot of creationism believers in this thread being ridiculed, but thats not fair, we too are entitled to our own opinons. Yes, I believe in creationism, I am a Christian, but I do not ridicule evolution believers, for the simple fact I RESPECT the fact that others are entitled to opinions.

I gotta ask, where are you getting all your statistics from? There's nothing wrong with people not accepting evolutionism, because its their belief, looking around though, these days, allot of people dont believe in creationism anymore.

(Just to say, I know not everyones ridiculing creatioism believers, but a vast majority are.)

 

[Vindictus]

I GENUINELY want to see any SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE against the theory of evolution.

And I mean evidence against, not holes in the theory of evolution, of which there are a admittedly a few.

Wouldnt you need a hole in the theory, to disprove it?
Here [http://www.bibleplus.org/creation/evidence.htm]

There is also evidence on both sides, I just hate the fact that many people try to force their beliefs on others, that may not be the best choice of words, but you know exactly what I mean, I see allot of creationism believers in this thread being ridiculed, but thats not fair, we too are entitled to our own opinons. Yes, I believe in creationism, I am a Christian, but I do not ridicule evolution believers, for the simple fact I RESPECT the fact that others are entitled to opinions.

I gotta ask, where are you getting all your statistics from? There's nothing wrong with people not accepting evolutionism, because its their belief, looking around though, these days, allot of people dont believe in creationism anymore.

(Just to say, I know not everyones ridiculing creatioism believers, but a vast majority are.)

It's not a matter of belief. Creationism has no evidence, Evolution is a well evidenced and demonstrated theory. One is a belief, another is scientific fact.

 

[Hobohodo]

It's not a matter of belief. Creationism has no evidence, Evolution is a well evidenced and demonstrated theory. One is a belief, another is scientific fact.

There was some evidence just above, I'm not trying to start an argument with anybody, but just looking through the read, just because someone has a belief, people seem to think that makes them unintelligent, I really feel that's sad, evolution may have evidence, but it doesn't make it fact, it too, is still a theory, there are missing links in Evolution.

 

[CodiferL]

We should definitely teach the opposing viewpoint and its massive quantity of evidence against evolutionary theory in schools.

We should also, when teaching about Germany's answer to racial minorities and sexual deviants and such in the 1930s and 40s, leading to "The Final Solution," consider the perspective that maybe it will improve a society to send its minorities to death camps.

 

[Hobohodo]

If you reject logical thought that has been replicated and proven tre, time and time again, in favor of fairy tales created two thousand years ago when people didn't know s*** about anything, you're a moron. Rejecting Evolution is like denying the earth isn't round at this point.

Why the hostility? I really don't understand? So, I have a differ in opinion, so I'm an idiot? This is the kind of attitude that shows Evolutionists in a bad light, your not helping your case by using hostility, you always use the same point aswell... It's a completely different thing, evolution has missing links, yet you ignore this for the simple reason that, you think it is right. I can have my own beliefs, there is nothing wrong with that, your looking like a moron at the moment in my opinion. Yes it has more evidence, but its called BELIEF for a reason, it's something to BELIEVE in, no matter what you say, I am doing nothing wrong, it affects your life in NO way.

 

[JFrog84]

Belief has no place in matters of science. If something can be demonstrated to be true, then you either accept it as truth, or you are a fool.

Are you saying that Isaac Newton was a fool and that his ideas had no place in science? As he strongly belived in creationism and fought against alternative theories.

 

[Asita]

Wouldnt you need a hole in the theory, to disprove it?
Here [http://www.bibleplus.org/creation/evidence.htm]

Oh goody, the same old arguments all over again.

Male/Female problem: http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB610.html
It's also worth noting that the argument of sterility is patently false, as fertile hybrids have been seen between organisms which lack even the same genus ('Beefalo' being a prime example, being a fertile hybrid between American Bison (bison bison) and Domestic Cattle (bos taurus). Heck, we've seen fertile 'wholphins' (Cross between Tursiops truncatus and Pseudorca crassidens)).

Polonium Haloes: http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CF/CF201.html
Galaxy appearance: http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CE/CE380.html
Comets: http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CE/CE261.html
Erosion: http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CD/CD620.html
Sedimentation: http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CD/CD220.html
Salt in the Oceans: http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CD/CD221_1.html
Magnetic Field: http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CD/CD701.html
Trees in the strata: http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CC/CC331.html
Folded strata: http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CD/CD510.html
Helium: http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CE/CE001.html
Helium in rock: http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CD/CD015.html
Number of fossils: http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CC/CC200_1.html

I think I've proven my point by now. The arguments presented are not well researched and have long since been debunked.

 

[CityofTreez]

I've been a Christian all my life and so I've grown up detesting evolution.

But I just ask one thing. Someone send me a site or a video or something that has nice and solid evidence that proves it's true. Now I'm still going to believe in Creationism/Intelligent Design (there is actually a surprising amount of historical evidence that lines up God's creation timeline with the natural history timeline) but I just want to see where the scientists who are studying evolution are getting there beliefs from.

Who knows? I may even change my mind. (Even though that is highly unlikely.)

http://youtu.be/vss1VKN2rf8

and

http://youtu.be/7w57_P9DZJ4

 

[CityofTreez]

I've been a Christian all my life and so I've grown up detesting evolution.

Why should that be? Even Pope John Paul II said evolution is probably true.

Well, actually the basis of Darwin's evolution was to rebel against the idea that God created the world. That it all just randomly happened with nothing overseeing it. So most Christians reject the idea because of it. But obviously we can't prove anything. All we believe is that there definitely is a God. So we figure that God created the universe. So I suppose we aren't necessarily detesting the theory of evolution itself, but the reason for which it was thought of in the first place.

Uhm, Evolution doesn't go against a God.

You can have faith in a higher being and still believe in Evolution.

 

[Asita]

Belief has no place in matters of science. If something can be demonstrated to be true, then you either accept it as truth, or you are a fool.

Are you saying that Isaac Newton was a fool and that his ideas had no place in science? As he strongly belived in creationism and fought against alternative theories.

And here we go again: http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CA/CA114.html

It's also worth noting that your statement there does not address the gist of the statement you were responding to, and I'd be very surprised indeed if you didn't already know that. If you want a better rundown on it though: Personal belief does not determine scientific validity or the curriculum studied in science class. Chemistry classes will not teach alchemy because some people might believe in it, Medical courses won't teach homeopathy for the sake of its defenders. The only thing that matters in a science class is where the evidence points. And Newton's works do not even relate to the belief you attributed to him, making your appeal to authority fallacy a non-sequitor at best.

 

[Dasmaster]

I GENUINELY want to see any SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE against the theory of evolution.

And I mean evidence against, not holes in the theory of evolution, of which there are a admittedly a few.

Wouldnt you need a hole in the theory, to disprove it?
Here [http://www.bibleplus.org/creation/evidence.htm]

There is also evidence on both sides, I just hate the fact that many people try to force their beliefs on others, that may not be the best choice of words, but you know exactly what I mean, I see allot of creationism believers in this thread being ridiculed, but thats not fair, we too are entitled to our own opinons. Yes, I believe in creationism, I am a Christian, but I do not ridicule evolution believers, for the simple fact I RESPECT the fact that others are entitled to opinions.

I gotta ask, where are you getting all your statistics from? There's nothing wrong with people not accepting evolutionism, because its their belief, looking around though, these days, allot of people dont believe in creationism anymore.

(Just to say, I know not everyones ridiculing creatioism believers, but a vast majority are.)

I can tell you why allot of people feel justified to look down on creationists. It is because you and him (me in this case) do not see the same thing.

For example looking at your link you might see some compelling arguments against Evolution.

However here is what i see. *quote from text* "a horse mating with a donkey produces a sterile mule". This is actually exactly what Evolution predicts because Horses and Donkeys are on the border of becoming different species so they can reproduce with DIFFICULTIES. These difficulties usually differ from

low fertility -> only 1 sex fertile -> Sterile -> No reproduction. (this is a simplified version and there are probably exceptions)

Whats more is that the author has made a grave error in his logic. Its not individuals that evolve it is groups. So you will always be able to find a suitable mate within your group.

He also makes similar errors with the rest of his claims.

 

[SillyBear]

I've been a Christian all my life and so I've grown up detesting evolution.

Why should that be? Even Pope John Paul II said evolution is probably true.

Well, actually the basis of Darwin's evolution was to rebel against the idea that God created the world. That it all just randomly happened with nothing overseeing it. So most Christians reject the idea because of it. But obviously we can't prove anything. All we believe is that there definitely is a God. So we figure that God created the universe. So I suppose we aren't necessarily detesting the theory of evolution itself, but the reason for which it was thought of in the first place.

You are so incredibly incorrect.

The basis of Darwin's studies was to discover truth in the universe. Darwin wasn't sitting around one day thinking "I want to piss off Christians..hmm.. how should I do that". He actually discovered something that was incredibly revolutionary.

Just like Galileo. Oh actually, excuse me - the basis of Galileo's findings that the world was round and it revolved around the sun was truly to piss off Christianity?

You would have been one of those Christians who was calling for Galileo's head if you lived in the past. You would have been one of them who believed he did it to rebel against God. When in reality he was a fucking scientist and he did what scientists do - discover truths.

And yes, evolution is a truth. It's is proven.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_biology

Read. Do some research.

 

[The Unworthy Gentleman]

Why the hostility? I really don't understand? So, I have a differ in opinion, so I'm an idiot? This is the kind of attitude that shows Evolutionists in a bad light, your not helping your case by using hostility, you always use the same point aswell.

Actually, yes, that is exactly what makes people idiots. I'm not saying this particular difference in opinion makes you an idiot, but having an opinion that is wrong makes you an idiot.

It's a completely different thing, evolution has missing links, yet you ignore this for the simple reason that, you think it is right.

A missing link is one thing, having a massive gaping hole is another. Evidence has the former, creationism has the latter. I hope I don't have to explain the holes in creationism.

I can have my own beliefs, there is nothing wrong with that, your looking like a moron at the moment in my opinion. Yes it has more evidence, but its called BELIEF for a reason, it's something to BELIEVE in, no matter what you say, I am doing nothing wrong, it affects your life in NO way.

Science isn't a belief and neither is evolution. Evolution, despite being called a theory, is a fact, by default if nothing else. Creationism is a belief because it requires you to believe in it for it to be true, evolution doesn't. Evolution is true whether you believe it or not, a mass of our scientific beliefs stem from evolution.

 

[Berethond]

I GENUINELY want to see any SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE against the theory of evolution.

And I mean evidence against, not holes in the theory of evolution, of which there are a admittedly a few.

Wouldnt you need a hole in the theory, to disprove it?
Here [http://www.bibleplus.org/creation/evidence.htm]

There is also evidence on both sides, I just hate the fact that many people try to force their beliefs on others, that may not be the best choice of words, but you know exactly what I mean, I see allot of creationism believers in this thread being ridiculed, but thats not fair, we too are entitled to our own opinons. Yes, I believe in creationism, I am a Christian, but I do not ridicule evolution believers, for the simple fact I RESPECT the fact that others are entitled to opinions.

I gotta ask, where are you getting all your statistics from? There's nothing wrong with people not accepting evolutionism, because its their belief, looking around though, these days, allot of people dont believe in creationism anymore.

(Just to say, I know not everyones ridiculing creatioism believers, but a vast majority are.)

You are entitled to your own opinions.
Unfortunately, you are wrong. Speciation and evolution are scientific fact. You can go down to a lab for a couple weeks and watch fruit flies speciate.

Also the evolution of antibiotic-resistant bacteria.

 

[evilneko]

It's not a matter of belief. Creationism has no evidence, Evolution is a well evidenced and demonstrated theory. One is a belief, another is scientific fact.

There was some evidence just above, I'm not trying to start an argument with anybody, but just looking through the read, just because someone has a belief, people seem to think that makes them unintelligent, I really feel that's sad, evolution may have evidence, but it doesn't make it fact, it too, is still a theory, there are missing links in Evolution.

Anyone who says there is evidence for creationism is either lying, ignorant, or stupid (ie, willfully ignorant). Granted, most of them fall into the second category there (which is where I categorize you, for the moment, and your last line only proves it). When presented with the facts many move from the second camp into the third camp. There is no actual evidence for creation and all of the arguments for it are based on misinterpretations of science, logical fallacies, and outright lies. Given this you can see how exasperating it is to deal with creationists.

If you want an easy way to reconcile Christianity and evolution have a look into Theistic Evolution. You can easily expand the concept into full-blown Deism. (in a nutshell: a deity did not directly create anything but the rules the universe runs by.)

 

[Asita]

Why the hostility? I really don't understand? So, I have a differ in opinion, so I'm an idiot? This is the kind of attitude that shows Evolutionists in a bad light, your not helping your case by using hostility, you always use the same point aswell... It's a completely different thing, evolution has missing links, yet you ignore this for the simple reason that, you think it is right. I can have my own beliefs, there is nothing wrong with that, your looking like a moron at the moment in my opinion. Yes it has more evidence, but its called BELIEF for a reason, it's something to BELIEVE in, no matter what you say, I am doing nothing wrong, it affects your life in NO way.

Missed this, thought I'd give the level-headed explanation. What caused the aggression in this case was your little bit about how "evolution may have evidence, but it doesn't make it fact, it too, is still a theory, there are missing links in Evolution." Now the reason this causes such ire is because the statement relies on an incredibly common misconception: that the word theory in science means the same thing as it does in common speech (which is closer to how the word "hypothesis" is used in science), which in turn is tied into the mistaken idea that 'proven' theories become laws, which is never the case (Famous example: Gravitational Theory is distinct from and explains the Law of Gravity). Laws are short concise observations about a given topic. Theories are models that hold up to all relevant data, and explain a variety of facts and often several scientific laws relating to the subject. A Scientific Theory is at its core a well validated explanation which makes accurate predictions about the subject it describes, and there is no higher form of explanation within the sciences. The uncertainty implied by your statement does not factor into the equation, just as it doesn't with regards to Atomic Theory or Germ Theory.

 

[Pyode]

Belief has no place in matters of science. If something can be demonstrated to be true, then you either accept it as truth, or you are a fool.

Are you saying that Isaac Newton was a fool and that his ideas had no place in science? As he strongly belived in creationism and fought against alternative theories.

He was also an alchemist who believed it was possible to turn other metals into gold.

The reason why his other work is still accepted as science is that none of his theories on gravity or refraction had anything to do with his other beliefs. When it came down to it, he used careful examination and experimentation to formulate his theories.

 

[Vindictus]

It's not a matter of belief. Creationism has no evidence, Evolution is a well evidenced and demonstrated theory. One is a belief, another is scientific fact.

There was some evidence just above, I'm not trying to start an argument with anybody, but just looking through the read, just because someone has a belief, people seem to think that makes them unintelligent, I really feel that's sad, evolution may have evidence, but it doesn't make it fact, it too, is still a theory, there are missing links in Evolution.

That may be so, and believing in Creationism doesn't make you unintelligent, just under educated.

It being a theory makes no difference. A theory is merely a collection of facts; an articulate hypothesis.