The Most Dangerous Woman in Videogames - Anita Sarkeesian

[BreakfastMan]

I will stop saying the shitty counter-arguments are coming from MRAs when they stop, you know, coming from MRAs. Or did you not notice the fact that Thunderf00t is plastered all over this thread? Again?

Or would you rather I just say that all of the counter-arguments I have seen are ass? Because they are.

Well it's obvious you've made up your mind. Enjoy being self righteous and dismissing everyone else's opinion, either because you think they come from people whom you've deemed to be "men's rights activists" despite themselves never claiming such or because you just decide that any criticism is groundless and thus not worth your time to even respond to.

If you're not interested in any sort of dialog that is fine but don't expect not to be criticized for such.

I would be interested in dialog if what people said actually had merit. As I said, I have not yet encountered any counter arguments that are not yet full of shit. If you have any of value, I would take a look at them, but I doubt it.

I am open-minded and rational. That is why I came to the conclusion that the MRA are horrible bigots. I despise them as much as I despise neo-nazis, the klan, the westboro baptist church, or any other horrible bigot group. They don't need to have killed family members for me to recognize them as being absolutely toxic and despicable.

Fair enough.
Mind to share those conclusions that lead you to believe in MRHM bigotry?

The fact that all of the leaders are huge misogynists and (usually) rape apologists. The fact that they are anti-science, choosing to hold to disproved theories of evolutionary psychology. The fact that even the most "respectable" of their number, Warren Farrell, has endorsed date-rape.

 

[Ragsnstitches]

There is no subversion in that trailer. It's "look at this hot girl. Oh my god she's nekkid, isn't she hot. Oooh, did you catch that bit of underboob?" then "Oh look at our cleverness, she isn't just some piece of eye candy, she's actually a super powerful warrior with skills".

And completely dropped any appeal to sexuality after the reveal. It went from sexiness with bra, panties, and a shower to "Psyche, actually we're going to fuck some shit up" with combat boots, jacket, and a shit load of weapons. It's the very definition of the subversion type of ad. Though, I guess if a gun nut who literally gets their rocks off to machine guns was watching this, then it was a consistent theme throughout.

And on that point, over half the fucking video is spend watching a girl getting dressed and being awfully sultry for someone who just got out of bed.

It's called a setup.

But don't talk bullshit.

You should take your own advice.

Oh, so Fighting Fuckdoll means they need to be both fighting and fuckable at the same time? It's not at all sensitive to the character and context in which they are portrayed?

You don't get the use of that term do you? I thought it was pretty self-explanatory. How about SiLF (Soldier I'd Like to Fuck)? I made it up just there, but it's something like that the term Fighting Fuckdoll was coined for, if only to be disparaging towards the trope.

When you deliberately create an image of a sexual nature, whatever subsequently follows on from that does not automatically change the context of what preceded, unless it subverts the SEXUAL aspect (the sexy woman turns out to be a a post-op/pre-op male, or has a hideous scar or disfigurement somewhere the ad concealed up to the reveal).

Getting dressed is not subversive.

Throwing on a combat uniform does not subvert the sexual theme and, if uniform fetishes were anything to go by, more likely enhances it (She's Hot AND she kicks ass!). Different Strokes and all that shit, doesn't matter, the goal was clear, make her sexy for the hormonally charged audience.

The ad DID subvert expectations though. Typically an add like that would be for perfume or some cosmetic crap (without the "epic voice" narrator). I didn't say otherwise. Pretty girl is not synonymous with Hardened super spy and that transition is subversive.

BUT:

Whether you got randy or not is irrelevant.

Whether the ad is good or bad at what it does is irrelevant.

Whether Joanna Dark is a fleshed out character or 2D cut-out in the game is irrelevant.

Whether the ad subverts other negative stereotypes or not is irrelevant.

The ad, taking as is and without extraneous details (like what the game is actually about), it is the very definition of Fighting fuckdoll. A character who is made to sexually titillate, then being empowered to fight. The empowerment does not counteract the intent to titillate.

You can argue until the sun goes nova whether that is good or bad, just don't say it isn't what it is. The term was made for that usage.

Lastly, I don't care about the feminist angle on this subject, but I have serious gripe with people who seem to think language bends to their whim. Whether you like it's usage or not does not mean you can decide what it can be used for.

 

[weirdee]

I'm just going to say that I disagree that she's doing more good than harm. The lack of diversity in female characters was something talked about. It just wasn't some huge polarizing issue. I feel like she's poisoned the well, and that what could be discussion of the issue and those surrounding it has mostly become two circlejerks attacking each other.

I would be more inclined to blame the people who specifically took the time to actually poison the well and turn it into a huge issue, than the person who did nothing except exist, and ask for money for a small project. Anybody who felt antagonized either were insecure enough that they felt the need to blow everything out of proportion, or got their information secondhand from those people.

 

[blackrave]

It really isn't fair though. He has decided he hates a group of people say Men's rights acitvists, and then decides that anyone who doesn't agree must be one and there for is not worth listening to, having a discussion with, and must also be a terrible person.

It's like republicans deciding they hate communists and then saying "obama is a communist" despite there being no evidence for that conclusion simply because he doesn't tow their party line to their satisfaction.

Or the American government calling occupy wall street members terrorists, or the British government deciding certain journalists and their assistants are terrorists.

So no not fair enough and accepting that kinda crap keeps any sort of actual discussion from happening.

Opinion is always fair.
It doesn't make it true fact, but as opinion I can agree that someone believes in something.
Also I really would like to ask and find out what is his reasoning behind hatred towards MRHM.
[And yes, I know it's actually MHRM, but my spine has decided that it's MRHM, so when not cautious enough I'm writing MRHM]

 

[OtherSideofSky]

Also, who designed the picture for this article? Forcing the stereotypical pink onto some of those characters seems fairly counterproductive to me, and on top of that it goes horribly with Sarkeesian's skin. Shame on you, graphic designer; you ought to know better.

Edit: And two pictures of Nilin? I liked Remember Me at least as much as the next person (probably more if reviews are anything to go by) but I really think you could have found more characters than her, Peach and Zelda.

 

[SummerOtaku]

As long as games don't end up like TV I don't mind, if they do then books are the last bastion.

Last bastion of what, exactly?

Entertainment aimed at specific groups, rather than mass appeal sanitised bullshit that nobody likes.

Well, too late for that bub.

Anita gets her way, then things like demographics or intended audience go out the window, and we get sanitized slop desperate not to offend anyone because a game dared make a feminist annoyed.

Wouldn't the problem then be the fact that the makers of games and such can't even write a good game without being sexist? Pretty sure she wants less sexism not less 'good' games.

 

[BreakfastMan]

You know guys, if we want to get anywhere with anything, the first step is going to require us to stop trying to tear each others throats out the second someone actually has a different opinion.

When you actually READ comments in this thread instead of making baseless assumptions and purposely trying to stir up flame wars ala BreakfastMan, Oskuro, and borderline you, then you'll come to find out that this has been a pretty tame, civil little thread going on here.

Not trying to stir up flame wars, I am just saying what I think. Or would you rather I censor myself so I don't offend your precious little sensibilities?

I'd rather you add something productive to the conversation as opposed to broadly and harshly lashing out to no one in particular.

Okay, fine. I will specify my (dissenting) opinion: I think that Anita Sarkeesian is right in nearly everything she says. Most of the retorts are either strawmen/misunderstandings of what she said (she never says video games are inherently sexist), character attacks, or absurd non-sequesters (a storytelling trope isn't poorly used and harmful because people want to protect others IRL? wut?).

 

[blackrave]

The fact that all of the leaders are huge misogynists and (usually) rape apologists. The fact that they are anti-science, choosing to hold to disproved theories of evolutionary psychology. The fact that even the most "respectable" of their number, Warren Farrell, has endorsed date-rape.

Any links for reference?
Also I'm not sure you can consider anyone in MHRM a "leader"
There are few noticeable personas, but no one who demands/deserves/carries title of "leader"
Are you talking about any particular person?

 

[chronobreak]

How dare anyone bash the Men's rights movement. As somebody affiliated with it, maybe it is an issue of education, but we do a lot of good, providing charitable services, and such things as attorneys and legal advice, child care, moral support, financial contributions for utilities/rent/mortgage payments, the list goes on.

If you want to keep your head in the sand, denying that there are societal prejudices against men and a wanton disregard for men in institutions such as family court and penitentiaries, even with the information widely available showing these things to be true to an epidemic degree, than I'd warrant a guess nothing we have to say would help you. But for a world where our boys and young men are growing up, you are damn right we will raise our voices to make the world better; if not for us, then for them.

And to think we are of one opinion, of one mind, you would be very ignorant indeed. There are plenty of reason to dismiss Anita Sarkeesian, without resorting to some blanket groupthink about her cause or her as a person.

Breakfast, you clearly do not know enough about the subject to form a valid opinion, and you seem to have no desire to clarify your patently false assertions. I would recommend any other advocates of our platform to disregard this man, and continue with more meaningful discourse with those who are of open minds and hearts

 

[OtherSideofSky]

Also, who designed the picture for this article? Forcing the stereotypical pink onto some of those characters seems fairly counterproductive to me, and on top of that it goes horribly with Sarkeesian's skin. Shame on you, graphic designer; you ought to know better.

OMFG MOVIEBOB IS A SEXIST FOR USING STEREOTYPICAL PINK FOR A WOMAN! ATTACCCCCCCCCK!!!! [/outrageangersexist]

I sincerely doubt Moviebob actually sees the banners for his articles before they go up, unless he moonlights in web design. Graphic design just happens to be an interest of mine, and I enjoy being catty about it. The issue of the background color not being right for Sarkeesian's skin tone in that picture and the overuse of Nilin are at least as much of a problem as the pink. (Also, I don't see anything else here that merits discussion on these forums.)

 

[Karadalis]

The fact that all of the leaders are huge misogynists and (usually) rape apologists. The fact that they are anti-science, choosing to hold to disproved theories of evolutionary psychology. The fact that even the most "respectable" of their number, Warren Farrell, has endorsed date-rape.

Any links for reference?
Also I'm not sure you can consider anyone in MHRM a "leader"
There are few noticeable personas, but no one who demands/deserves/carries title of "leader"
Are you talking about any particular person?

Oh no, haven't you heard? There is a weekly summit now where the feminist and MRA leaders meet for a friendly tennis competition.

Tennis? bah...

Mortal combat style tournament fighting would be more awesome.

As to Breakfast man...

Storming into a thread, insulting everyone who doesnt agrees with you and then stating "just my opinion not trying to start trouble"

Yeaaaah... i think thats telling about your real agenda. Not providing any counterarguments besides "you are all poopoo heads and thus your arguments are invalid!" doesnt make you automatically right.. but whom im explaining that to.. everyone else has allready realized that you actually do not have any arguments whatsoever...

 

[weirdee]

question: does our status quo also count as "sanitized slop" if it is created with an equally unrealistic viewpoint as the hypothetical future that has been conquered by radical feminist empresses?

 

[blackrave]

The fact that all of the leaders are huge misogynists and (usually) rape apologists. The fact that they are anti-science, choosing to hold to disproved theories of evolutionary psychology. The fact that even the most "respectable" of their number, Warren Farrell, has endorsed date-rape.

Any links for reference?
Also I'm not sure you can consider anyone in MHRM a "leader"
There are few noticeable personas, but no one who demands/deserves/carries title of "leader"
Are you talking about any particular person?

Oh no, haven't you heard? There is a weekly summit now where the feminist and MRA leaders meet for a friendly tennis competition.

Friendly?
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight, and WW2 was "friendly" cockfight between Allies and Axis.
But to be honest I would totally watch stream of such event

 

[Darth_Payn]

I hope it has dawned on Anita by now that most of the games she accuses of having the most sexist depictions of women and the most stereotypical of ethnicities are made in Japan.