The Most Dangerous Woman in Videogames - Anita Sarkeesian

[Something Amyss]

This does show that the people are foolish at best and outright stupid at worst but it also shows that the people who sell this "magicly blessed water" are also frauds.

Tis basicly the same thing Arnita did. She asked for money, posed herselfe cleverly as the damsel in distress she hates so much and got a boatload of money.

She didn't pose herself as anything. People were more than happy to attack her.

Besides, the people selling blessed water are actually lying. Anita's previous works can be seen in full. I honestly can't believe you're trying to equate the two. Are you that desperate to find something wrong with her?

 

[Imp_Emissary]

She makes low-quality content after raising an obscene amount of money. That's most people's problem with her.

To quote myself;

As much as i try and usually distance myself from this Anita Sarkeesian does not deserve the defense she is getting. She is a BAD advocate, a poor quality pundit, a talentless hack who took way too much money to do too little. Constant off-hand references to her as a 'victim of the anti-feminist agenda' damages the point. Sure she is very high profile and therefore easy to use as a reference point but her work is being framed in the wrong context.

She is a boring, repetitive, safe stay-at-home stereotypical 'femanist'. She has all the fun-hating cliche drawbacks without any insightful analysis or worthwhile original critique. She is simply unworthy of all the attention she gets, from both sides. The journalistic equivalent of grey, mildly unpleasant tasting paste.

x( Oh. My. God...

That is one of the kindest, most selfless things I've ever seen a person do for Anita Sarkeesian!

With the many negative comments on her work and the personal insults, you've made it clear that you don't care for her or her work.

Yet, you are willing to take time out of your day to see her videos, and go to articles talking about her on the internet.
Even looking up old comments you've made to make sure your post has beef!

You, are a saint, and a truly generous person.
Anita is lucky to have fans like you. Willing to do so much for almost nothing they like in return.

Spoiler: Don't open this.

Spoiler: Something scary, and dangerous is in here.

Spoiler: Seriously. Don't do it....

BOO!

She makes low-quality content after raising an obscene amount of money. That's most people's problem with her. Stop pretending it isn't.

Then they should stop giving other reasons. And that doesn't explain the wave of hate before she ever even made a video or finished her kickstarter.

Sorry, friend. It just doesn't pass the smell test.

x( You careless monster!

You just don't understand the extent of their fandom!

Who the fuck is Anita Sarkeesian and why the fuck should I give a damn?

For the record, I do know who she is and what she's about. I know of the controversy surrounding her Femi-Nazi (as I've often heard them called) views on the gaming industry. Personally I've never seen any of her videos because quite honestly I really don't care what her opinion on things are. Seems to me that she's just doing the exact same thing that Ann Coulter is doing: raising a lot of noise and ruckus just to cause controversy and therefor get people talking about her. The old saying "there's no such thing as bad press" holds true, as if you get people talking about you - for good or bad - your name is getting spread around and people are likely to be drawn to you. Be it because they're just bobbing heads going "Uh-huh! Uh-huh! I agree with everything you say!" or people that watch just so they have an excuse to get pissed off and rage about everything you say. Personally, I don't care about what she has to say because in the end it's just another random person with another random criticism about another random thing.

So again: "Who the fuck is Anita Sarkeesian and why the fuck should I give a damn?"

Look at that! This fan hasn't even seen the videos, or knows what it is she is saying.

Yet, is willing to also comment anyway, and pay attention to the issue! To spread the word!
Just like the first wave of fans at the announcement of the kickstarter!

That, Zachary Amaranth, is dedication!
That, Zachary Amaranth, is generosity!

If you can't believe in that, well. I don't know what you think it is then.
What? Did all these people complaining about Anita all the time chose to do so, because she is using video games to explain feminist theory, and doesn't always say only nice things about games?

Come now. That would just be silly!

 

[Rebel_Raven]

It DOES say something about women's representation in games because their representation is immensely underwhelming in terms of number, variety, and realism.

Wouldn't you agree that in terms of realism and variety this is something which pretty much all characters suffer from? It's not like male characters are more realistic or have much more variety (maybe a little simply due to them being more numerous)

Yeah, gender select games are kinda not counting here. Lets take gender select games off the table for the sake of finding games where female is the only gender you can play as.

Why wouldn't they count, if it is gender that matters they definitely count. What you're doing is purposely restricting your sample and thus creating a huge bias in order to be able to reinforce your point. That is actually a big no-no.

Being more numerous does make male protagonists more varied. Which is what I'm hoping more female protagonists, not necessarily even equal, but more varied.

When I said realism, I meant the people that say it's unrealsitic for a woman to be on the front lines of a future war or unrealistic that a woman's physically powerful doing things like throwing a car. The setting doesn't have to be realistic for gamers all the time in that it limits women to certain roles in their world.

Because gender select games do little to tell a story from a woman's point of view, rather an extremely neutral point of view that both men and women can deal with, which extremely limits the story. It has to fit guys, and girls with no deviation unless it's specefically programmed in which is generally the relationship section. If you wanna pretend skyrim's relationship system is deep, go right ahead. Bioware's relationship system barely makes an impact in the story because it has to make sense when you play through as a guy.

It's not like gender select games are extremely common, and can expect them to come out reliably in the future on top of that. I have most of them now. I'd like to think I can hope to get more, but they're not all that common.

Moreover, you may as well include MMORPGs into that list of games with gender select whixh really dillutes the results.

What's wrong with a limited list? You shouldn't have to need wriggle room of bending the rules to argue a point, right? I.E. the extremely limited amount of games that let you play as a woman from start to finish with no gender select. Why fight so hard to include games that don't fit that criteria?

It's not like I'm even moving the goal posts here, as I really thought I made it clear that I primarily want games where you play as a woman from start to finish with no gender select. I keep saying that much, don't I?

 

[Rebel_Raven]

I understand they can be damned if they do, and damned if they don't. The thing, IMO, that makes it so easy to damn them, is, well, the lack of stuff to compare them to, and that there's often extremes as between giving masculine, or feminine traits.

It's impossible to please everyone, compounding matters. That's what a lot of personalities, appearances, and game styles can fix. If a customer doesn't like an masculine female, hopefully there's a feminine one to play as. If both are a bit too extreme one way or the other for the customer, then hopefully there'll be a third option. The more options, and the more variety the easier it is to have pleased someone, and a pleased person generally doesn't damn people.

I agree completely.

The problem is developers/publishers don't exist as a single hive mind working to one end. A developer cannot control anything outside of their own game but are often criticised as if it's their fault the character they created didn't cater for everyone and that there's no alternative.

I'm not saying it's right, just that I completely understand why so many developers don't want to even try to approach female characters.

And we haven't even gotten to the death of authorial intent.

While they don't have a hive mind, they can make a female character for an initial entry, then look at what the competition is doing, then wonder what hasn't been done yet, then try to do that. Within reason, of course.

I agree developers should't be the only ones criticized, and sometimes are criticized for things beyond their control. I blame the indurestry as a whole on that note. I know it's not all of the industry, but it's enough that it's probably easier to root out those that haven't rubbed me the wrong way.

Developers get flak for male creations don't they? What's the difference? Well, aside from grievous screwups like Other M, I suppose.
It doesn't even matter personalitywise as Dragon's Crown's Sorceress has shown us. She was supposed to be a parody. Thing is she's the norm. it kinda blew up around her because of that.

Until developers work on getting more female characters out there, what few that we do get are going to get immense amounts of attention because they're so rare.

 

[Sexual Harassment Panda]

In way of the samurai, you are called "he" "him" and generally referred to as a man no matter what. There's no ambiguous language like in Saints Row 2,3, and 4.

That's hilarious. I don't think you can take that to heart. I definitely wouldn't take it to mean anything since WOTS has some of the worst localization I've seen. The English is horrible, as are the graphics, the animations, the Japanese voice acting... I actually am a fan of the series, honest.

 

[RJ 17]

Look at that! This fan hasn't even seen the videos, or knows what it is she is saying.

Yet, is willing to also comment anyway, and pay attention to the issue! To spread the word!
Just like the first wave of fans at the announcement of the kickstarter!

That, Zachary Amaranth, is dedication!
That, Zachary Amaranth, is generosity!

By all means, don't let me get in the way of your jovial sarcasm parade - at least...I hope that's sarcasm you're attempting - but just for the record, the only --- you know what? Nevermind. I'm not gonna bite. For all intents and purposes, you're right, Imp. I shouldn't have even bothered commenting in this topic.

 

[VanQ]

Snip.

Allow me to just thank you for being easily the most rational, logical and non-aggressive person on this forum to ever disagree with me on this matter. It's unbelievably refreshing to read a response that isn't a direct attack on my character and actually addresses the point I was trying to make. I wish more people would take a leaf from your book.

I'm also right there beside you with my rose tinted goggles from the 90's. I was a 90's kid after all. I grew up with games from Crash Bandicoot and Abe's Oddyssey to games like Parasite Eve and Threads of Fate. There were male and female protagonists in those times, and I was probably just too young to care at the time but I felt like I cared more about if the game was worth my time rather than whether the characters specifically were good or bad.

I do admit that the well of female protagonists has dried up in the last decade, but I feel like the quantity has declined but there has certainly been an increase in quality recently. For every X-Blades there's a Tomb Raider 2013 and for every Dead or Alive there's a Street Fighter.

If you don't mind me doing so, I feel like there are at least a few games from recent years that never get mentioned and they display everything I'd like to see when representing women in games. Very few people mention the Atelier series of games. The Atelier games on PS3/Vita easily have 3 of the most down to earth and fantastic female protagonists ever written, in my opinion. There are no damsels in distress, no fighting fuck toys and as far as I know its target audience is actually girls, yet I honestly find it one of the most enjoyable experiences in gaming.

I can think of more than this, and have actually considered making a thread about it, where people can specifically recommend good examples of female protagonists/heroines. I feel like complaining about the bad can only do so much to bring awareness to the issue, while openly praising the games that do it right and showing support both in spirit and in cash can only show that there is a market for such games.

 

[Insideout Ink Demon]

ANITA SARKEESIAN IS DOING THINGS IN A WAY THAT I POTENTIALLY DON'T AGREE WITH! WAAAAHH! - Entire thread.

Off topic, I wonder if this thread will get to 1000 replies?

It's well on it's way there anyway. I don't really have anything to add on this topic. Funnily enough, until today, I had never watched any video featuring Anita or even knew what she looked like - show's how interested I was in what all the fuss was about. I just never really bothered to look into this in any great detail. Surely it's just someone elses opinion, even if she is being more vocal about it than your "average" person? Hardly worth bursting a blood vessel over....

I dont have much to add to that, although i do find the repsonse videos ive watched about her, more than a little disturbing, OTT, creepy, aggressive

 

[wulf3n]

While they don't have a hive mind, they can make a female character for an initial entry, then look at what the competition is doing, then wonder what hasn't been done yet, then try to do that. Within reason, of course.

I agree developers should't be the only ones criticized, and sometimes are criticized for things beyond their control. I blame the indurestry as a whole on that note. I know it's not all of the industry, but it's enough that it's probably easier to root out those that haven't rubbed me the wrong way.

Developers get flak for male creations don't they? What's the difference? Well, aside from grievous screwups like Other M, I suppose.

I would imagine they do, just not to the levels seen by a poorly implemented female character. And as far as I'm aware we've never seen an equivalent uproar to a male character as Other M or Dragons Crown. This is arguably because no male character has been handled in the same way, but still lends to the fear that stuffing up a female character carries a higher consequence than stuffing up a male character.

It doesn't even matter personalitywise as Dragon's Crown's Sorceress has shown us. She was supposed to be a parody. Thing is she's the norm. it kinda blew up around her because of that.

Until developers work on getting more female characters out there, what few that we do get are going to get immense amounts of attention because they're so rare.

I don't really think the Sorceress is as much a parody as she is a amalgamation of cliched elements used in a non-cliched way, but that's off topic, and if I start I'll never stop

Dragons Crown is a good example of the how I believe the whole issue is turning into a self fulfilling prophecy or catch 22.

 

[VanQ]

I do admit that the well of female protagonists has dried up in the last decade, but I feel like the quantity has declined but there has certainly been an increase in quality recently. For every X-Blades there's a Tomb Raider 2013 and for every Dead or Alive there's a Street Fighter.

Woah hold up there. First off there really isn't any other game that exists that gets such a bad rap when people mention Dead or Alive and if Dead or Alive didn't exist there really wouldn't be any other game like it. As for X-Blades, that game was a commercial flop and can't be equated to other games that have had female protagonists but in a more...let's say politically correct modern fashion.

I mean the games that honestly get beaten over and over again is just the same list yet the list of actual good games that have female characters easily outweigh them. Yet when it comes to the conversation people honestly argue that the weight is reversed. Kinda getting tired of that false 1:1 ratio.

I mean this isn't even including the subjective factor as to what some people would find acceptable and some people don't. Everyone has different levels of tolerance. I mean there are actual game reviewers out there that actively have called video games pornography yet the game has no sexual intercourse or any sort of nudity. Yet the claim is made because of an awkward mechanic that is meant to establish relationships in the game. Yet ironically by slandering the game with a lie you stagnate the one of the few games out there that is actually trying to make it so that you as the player are an active participant in establishing a relationship with another character of the game. I mean you would think that they would just call the mechanic awkward, offer some feedback and yet commend them for at least trying something new. But instead, it just gets called pornography. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

I was just trying to make an example, I wasn't implying an exact equivalence exists. I'm right there with you. And I like Dead or Alive. I've played all of them, even tried beach volleyball when it came out. I was super pleased when I could play as Ayane in that recent Ninja Gaiden game, that part kicked ass. I'm the guy that can see that those games have their place in the industry just as much as any other game and I despise the flak they get for giving their audience what it wants.

Spoiler

X-Blades was still a steaming pile of shit though.

 

[Smeatza]

snip

So let's just get this straight.
You want a game that:
1. Features a female protagonist
2. That only features a female protagonist
3. Where the protagonist's gender (being female) is integral to the story
4. Where the story is told from what you perceive to be a woman's point of view
5. That is on consoles and preferably not indie.
Feel free to correct any of those as you deem fit.

The first two criteria seem like convenient ways of artificially cutting down the list to me. Not only because of how it assumes great generalisations of the writing of hundreds of games, but also because of the following.

The third point relies on the assumption that most games featuring exclusively male protagonists have their gender integral to the story. And that's simply not the case. Gears of War would be no different if it featured Michelle Fenix looking for her husband, Far Cry 3 would be no different if it featured Janice Brody rescuing her friends. The latest Lara Croft would be no different (besides the title) if it featured Lars Croft instead of Lara.
The complaint summarised in the third point applies equally to both male and female characters. It is an issue of personal preference rather than a gender related ethical issue.

For the fourth point, what exactly is the difference between stories told from a neutral point of view and stories told from a woman's point of view? After all, if the protagonist in these "gender neutral" games is technically female doesn't that make it a female point of view?
I'm hesitant to say so, but it's almost as if you're saying "I want it written from a stereotypical woman's point of view." If not, what other criteria you would define this "woman's point of view" with?

The fifth point explains a lot. You're looking in the wrong place. Video games have traditionally been seen as juvenile and for children, yet even within the field of video games consoles have traditionally been considered juvenile and for children. The games with the most progressive and mature writing have always been on PC and will continue to be so for the foreseeable future.
Plus the only difference between and indie game and a non-indie game is that the indie games haven't made much money yet. If this specific type of story you desire can only be found in indie games it probably mean that a game with that type of story hasn't been able to make a significant amount of money, and does not warrant the risk of investment in a mainstream game.

Frankly I think you're setting your standards too high and you would be disappointed in the story of video games even if you were male.

 

[Imp_Emissary]

Look at that! This fan hasn't even seen the videos, or knows what it is she is saying.

Yet, is willing to also comment anyway, and pay attention to the issue! To spread the word!
Just like the first wave of fans at the announcement of the kickstarter!

That, Zachary Amaranth, is dedication!
That, Zachary Amaranth, is generosity!

By all means, don't let me get in the way of your jovial sarcasm parade - at least...I hope that's sarcasm you're attempting - but just for the record, the only --- you know what? Nevermind. I'm not gonna bite. For all intents and purposes, you're right, Imp. I shouldn't have even bothered commenting in this topic.

I love you too, RJ.
But that can wait for later.

First, I would like to tell ya about one thing Anita commented on in the videos that didn't have to do with gender, that could arguably be a bigger problem with bad[sub](or at least not always as varied)[/sub] representation of men and women in video games.

That was about the large number of games that use combat/violence as the primary way for the players to interact with the world around them.

There are games that give a few more options. Like the Bioware&Bethesda games that let you talk your way out of situations. Or Metal Gear games that normally let you sneak past most enemies/knock them out instead of killing them.
That said, even if a game lets you not kill the enemies, it doesn't mean they don't have the player be "non-violent".

Not that violent video games can't have neat stories, but the kinds of stories they can tell is a shorter list because of this limitation.

Now for the love.

Spoiler: *Turns RJ into a cat, then Sloths RJ*

 

[mic1402]

Guys, What ever happened to the thing where we found out anita wasn't a fan of games and was just lying for profit?

 

[Rebel_Raven]

I think part of my point was that you are more likely to find female characters in places where you find more complex characters in general. As you move away from generic people shaped sacks of flour to actual characters, the likelihood of a female character increases (probably in relation to the developers caring more about the story and less about general appeal to the largest demographic. This may also fit well with understanding of buying habits of gamers based on gender.

I really hadn't noticed the trend of complex characters = more likely to find female characters. I still don't really see it.

But because of that, yeah, by going after their main audience (wouldn't say dude-bro demographic, the 15-30 male demographic is the same one targeted by not just fighting and fps after all, and certainly gets attempts to appeal by every demographic because of how profitable it can be and how reliably so) whenever the option is available, they would probably choose to represent the current most profitable demographic base rather then a lesser one out of simple practicality.

I would say the dudebro demographic. Nah, I'm just kidding. they're a part of it, though.
How reliable is the demographic when only a few companies really make successful games off them, though?

Add to that over-scrutiny about any female character, the chance of backlash for not having a "positive" female character (which in games where there is almost no character, wouldn't be too surprised to see some controversy pop up in relation to that), the notion that many people just don't care the gender of the character if gameplay is fun and the greater chance that an artist or graphic designer will be male that would have a chance of self-insertion, and we start to really get a grasp why things end up with fewer female protagonists. And that is to say nothing of the cycle effect of female protagonist games historically doing worse financially meaning they are less likely to be bet on or supported to the same effect, further decreasing the chance they will be a break-out hit.

I understand the fear of overscrutiny, but it's like dancing when you don't think you can. You gotta get out there, and do it anyhow.

Overscrutiny happens when there's little to scrutinize.
If you're looking for a piece of straw 3 inches long, looking an entire bail of hay vs a handful will likely net more positive results. Moreover, it's harder to notice all the individual pieces of straw you aren't looking for unless you're going through every piece for that one perfect piece instead of settling for something close enough.

Like I said, guys scrutinize people like Kratos coz I have seen mention of people not like being distilled into crude angry rage-a-holics, but not so much that it's anywhere to the degree most female protagonists are met. Likely because there's lots of alternatives to Kratos, though at one time you might not have guessed with the God of War inspired games like Dante's Inferno, and Darksiders.

Developers risk similar scrutiny every time they put out a guy protagonist. I mean Assassin's Creed put out several non white guys with short brown hair. Who's hating on them for what they look like?
Nintendo risked it with nearly every link re-design. As much hate as some designs got, I doubt they got so much scrutiny they'll never use some of those designs again.

All of which does suck, both for variety sake, as well as representation, though is still understandable in a rational sense which makes it both hard to attack without seeming unrealistically idealistic at times, and hard to find ways to change it as it is not a result of ideology so much as conservative business behavior and risk assessment practicality.

I dunno about this. They haven't done anything to adjust it because they feel their current model works, yet it seems like reality isn't supporting it.

It sucks to say it, but it makes more sense as a company to go with a male protagonist, so most will choose that path. Male characters don't have the pressure of having to represent the entire gender they are assigned, are more likely to appeal to the largest paying demographic, don't prevent women from playing the game and even if it may turn some away it is still likely less then if it was female character turning away males, and is more likely to not get bad press for not having female characters then if they had some and it didn't fit the ideals of a journalist or researcher who wanted to make a storm in a teacup that week.

Or we could damn them even harder!!

But seriously, if they refuse to address the criticisms, then are we expected to stop criticising them for it? the problem's still there.
If the criticism is to go away, the problem must be addressed. The solution is kinda simple. If a developer wants to make a female protagonist, let them. That gets more out there, when the rough early period passes, they'll probably closer into the clear than than they are now.
People criticize because people want more female protagonits, so with more out there, hopefully in some decent variety, the criticisms will lessen.

Companies are already being blasted either way.

If we want to change things, we have to figure out how to change what causes companies to do what they do in the first place. I think part of it would have to be not supporting the likes of Anita though. It is easy to blame the industry for being so conservative, but when the community itself is ready to lynch them for any failure, or even not meet the personal ideal of some ideological critic should they even try to make female characters, I don't blame them for not. And while part of the reason female characters are scrutinized the way they are is because of lack of them, every game is an individual production and the developers are not going to risk their game and money in order to make the field less hostile towards their competitors in the future. Why risk their neck and reputation, especially when a large game flopping can be closure, when they already have a stable option with greater possible reward for less risk?

Anita's an unusual case. I can't say I like the way she presents things. Putting aside personal attacks against her, too.
Thing is she has a point. Several. If all of her points are getitng dismissed odds are you probably see no problems with the industry. I could be wrong, though.

Games with female protagonists doing worse is often a matter of quality of the game (Generally lacking when it comes to women. Wonder why?), lack of advertisement, and generally just not giving it the push most male only games get that succeede, so of course they're going to under perform. And so they think all games with female leads are going to underperform. And we enter the past 13 years of little representation with games with female characters nearly set up to fail.

More reward, less risk, I get that. Thing is, it's not all that safe. I mean a lot of companies are failing. A lot of companies have failed recently. Some of them even played it safe.
Sure some companies are bulletproof, but most just aren't and I think those smaller companies are trying to be too much like the larger companies. It's a business model that might be worth following, but it involves following a niche that's already full so it's only good for the companies that are successful. The rest of the smaller companies have to compete against them, though which leads to failing.

 

[RJ 17]

Look at that! This fan hasn't even seen the videos, or knows what it is she is saying.

Yet, is willing to also comment anyway, and pay attention to the issue! To spread the word!
Just like the first wave of fans at the announcement of the kickstarter!

That, Zachary Amaranth, is dedication!
That, Zachary Amaranth, is generosity!

By all means, don't let me get in the way of your jovial sarcasm parade - at least...I hope that's sarcasm you're attempting - but just for the record, the only --- you know what? Nevermind. I'm not gonna bite. For all intents and purposes, you're right, Imp. I shouldn't have even bothered commenting in this topic.

I love you too, RJ.
But that can wait for later.

First, I would like to tell ya about one thing Anita commented on in the videos that didn't have to do with gender, that could arguably be a bigger problem with bad[sub](or at least not always as varied)[/sub] representation of men and women in video games.

That was about the large number of games that use combat/violence as the primary way for the players to interact with the world around them.

There are games that give a few more options. Like the Bioware&Bethesda games that let you talk your way out of situations. Or Metal Gear games that normally let you sneak past most enemies/knock them out instead of killing them.
That said, even if a game lets you not kill the enemies, it doesn't mean they don't have the player be "non-violent".

Not that violent video games can't have neat stories, but the kinds of stories they can tell is a shorter list because of this limitation.

Now for the love.

Spoiler: *Turns RJ into a cat, then Sloths RJ*

Look, all I was trying to say was that I don't see what all the hub-bub - for or against - Anita is all about. She seems to me like a female Rush Limbaugh of the gaming industry. Now with that said...

Spoiler: *Breaks Free Of The Dreaded Sloth-Hold By Using One Of His Ultimate Techniques*

 

[Something Amyss]

Thunderf00t attacked her implying she claimed the Dansel in Distress trope was invented by video games, even though she pointed out it existed in classic literature.

In fairness, Thunderf00t is full of crap and it didn't start with Anita. Feminists threaten his special snowflake status.

Well, no. She's not a con artist. It's just that America loves the underdog. (and that love sometimes defies logic and reason).

But again, you have shifted away from the point in question.

Sort of. It's not okay to violate copyright laws just because you don't have money (of course), but it's a grey area.

It's really not a grey area.

You really didn't contradict yourself in that previous post, I'm sorry for that. But in one of your next posts - see below.

Especially since I didn't make one of the two statements you presented as contradictory. Which was the point here.

That is a sarcastic statement, so you're implying that complainers shouldn't watch her videos.

No, I'm outright mocking a specific branch of people who say they cannot stand to watch her, yet still do. There's a large difference, and I'd like to think we can be adult enough here to not pretend they're the same thing. You know, because they're not.

If you inferred otherwise, this likely goes to your comprehension skills. It's not what I said by any margin.

And here you're implying that people should watch her videos before complaining. Which is true - they really should if they haven't yet.

Well, they should, but I wasn't implying that they should. In fact, the point here was more to point out the flaws in generalising. It turned his mentality around on him by making a blanket accusation.

Granted, a lot of people who are criticising her attribute to her things she doesn't say. I suspect they haven't watched her stuff, and if they're going to criticise her, they certainly should be informed first. That's still not contradictory.

That wasn't a false dichotomy. Because it really is binary choice here - you either watch those videos, or you don't.
If there's a third option, do tell.

Well, you falsely attributed a contradictory set of choices to me. If the issue is "watch or don't watch," fine. But then, since you say those are the only two choices, and that's what's at issue, why bring it up?

You brought it up because of the extra issue you tried to tack on to me, in part by quoting someone else. Don't be dishonest, especially on a web forum where your previous statements are still visible.

 

[Imp_Emissary]

Look at that! This fan hasn't even seen the videos, or knows what it is she is saying.

Yet, is willing to also comment anyway, and pay attention to the issue! To spread the word!
Just like the first wave of fans at the announcement of the kickstarter!

That, Zachary Amaranth, is dedication!
That, Zachary Amaranth, is generosity!

By all means, don't let me get in the way of your jovial sarcasm parade - at least...I hope that's sarcasm you're attempting - but just for the record, the only --- you know what? Nevermind. I'm not gonna bite. For all intents and purposes, you're right, Imp. I shouldn't have even bothered commenting in this topic.

I love you too, RJ.
But that can wait for later.

First, I would like to tell ya about one thing Anita commented on in the videos that didn't have to do with gender, that could arguably be a bigger problem with bad[sub](or at least not always as varied)[/sub] representation of men and women in video games.

That was about the large number of games that use combat/violence as the primary way for the players to interact with the world around them.

There are games that give a few more options. Like the Bioware&Bethesda games that let you talk your way out of situations. Or Metal Gear games that normally let you sneak past most enemies/knock them out instead of killing them.
That said, even if a game lets you not kill the enemies, it doesn't mean they don't have the player be "non-violent".

Not that violent video games can't have neat stories, but the kinds of stories they can tell is a shorter list because of this limitation.

Now for the love.

Spoiler: *Turns RJ into a cat, then Sloths RJ*

Look, all I was trying to say was that I don't see what all the hub-bub - for or against - Anita is all about. She seems to me like a female Rush Limbaugh of the gaming industry. Now with that said...

Spoiler: *Breaks Free Of The Dreaded Sloth-Hold By Using One Of His Ultimate Techniques*

Very well. If you love something, you have to let it go. ;p

As for Anita, I don't see the similarities. For one she's not quite as...Bombastic as Rush.
Though, that is my perspective, not yours.

Green grass is in the eye of a beholder, and what not. ;D

 

[Warachia]

1: The first giant bomb list is hillariously short. I think you meant the long unsorted list that goes back to the dawn of gaming and counts games where you have to play the game first as a guy to unlock a woman to play as, or play as a woman for even the briefrst part of the game. Pretty sure foreign language games are in there, too. That's not really helpful, nor does it offer a lot of hope for the future.
http://www.giantbomb.com/female-protagonists/3015-2287/characters/

2: The second list counts women who aren't the main boss, and also counts women that join your party, and stop being antagonists and become NPCs in your group. That wasn't quite what the guy was getting at, I think, when he said women as the main villain, plus you play as a woman.

The third list is pretty short, and repeditive, too. Most of the games are on steam, though there are some that have gotten to consoles. Not sure if I mentioned it, but my laptop isn't exactly a gaming machine, and I utilize it more for social matters, and work than gaming.

Visual novel games. Thank you. Shouldn't be too demanding on my system.

What's sexist about princess maker? I'm more irritated that it's basically PC exclusive. But do you play as the princess, or the guy raising her? I forget. pretty sure it's the latter.

I'm not really looking at AAA so much as wanting to focus on console games, to be blunt. I recently got a 2ds to try and get away from my problems with console games.
Not everyone wants to game purely on the indie circuit either. Believe me, i don't. Do note I said purely. Doesn't mean I won't play an indie game.

I do know of games women like to play, being one.
Gender neutral genres are murky, and generally not what I'm talking about in games with female protagonists.

Yes, my list is very selective. It's about female protagonists in games where you only play as female. That's the whole point of what I'm talking about. It certainly helps to have sights set on console games that came out in the past 5 years, and games coming out.

And why not play as an ugly woman every once in a while?

I'm sorry, but your argument is ridiculous, so because you think the lists are short you are just going to almost entirely ignore their whole argument? Vicsor's list has hundreds of games on it, divided into different categories (ones where you only play as a female too), although I'm sure you read it because if you didn't you wouldn't have changed arguments, you were asking for indie games then say you don't wan't indie games, but then you have a vague statement after that to try (and fail) to not sound like a hypocrite, either that or you are really unclear in your wording, "I'm not really looking at AAA so much as wanting to focus on console games," which ARE AAA games, "I recently got a 2ds to try and get away from my problems with console games" so you don't want to focus on consoles then, make up your mind please.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

Crowd funding isn't a magical cure. People can't treat it like a pre-order because, well, lets look at Doublefine's attempt at it. They asked for money. They got the money, then they found out they needed a lot more money. It's not so simple as to just do it.
http://www.engadget.com/2013/07/03/double-fine-kickstarter-debacle/

Kickstarter's still new, too. And not everyone likes digital transactions, me being one of them.

You are right, Crowd Funding isnt the cure, but it is one step on the road to the cure.

People can say "I want X, I want X, I want X!" and the publishers MIGHT take notice and try to release something similar to X, it wont be big budget, and it wont be a primetime game as they are unsure of it. This would likely lead to it being fairly low quality and ignored or get low reviews.

Where as if people say "I want X, I want X, I want X!" and Crowd funding game goes "Ok, I am making X, here is what will be in it!" and if it is quality, and it raises 3 million or so in funding from people, or 5 million, or 10, or 25, ect Publishers will take notice. They will be able to reasonably assume if they put a million or two into X game they will be able to get that out and then some based on the demand.

I don't doubt Crowdfunding can help the industry, and I don't doubt that the prospect of making money will raise the attention of the industry (sorta. I question the business sense of an industry that's shrunk violently), however crowdfunding will have to get hammered out more. It seems simple enough, but we're pretty much only seeing the surface. Like I said, so much can go wrong.

I really don't know if crowdfunding will reach the millions. It seems improbable to me, really. Like I said, it's new, and untested.
Some people, like me, don't like digitally moving their money around. If I want to buy something on XBL, PSN, or Nintendo shop, I buy a card, input the code, then puchase. I prefer getting stuff from brick and mortars.

What crowdfunding -can- do, though, is perhaps use a pledge system to guage interest, and use the crowdfunding for assistance in development costs. I don't know how well it'll work, but it seems mroe reasonable than asking people to pay for the game's development entirely before hand.

I'm hoping that my vague want in wanting more female protagonists is going to be noticed, but sometihng similar to it is kinda weird to think about. Or just a buncha guy games.
Because not all of them are likely to make the same female character exactly, we'll have variety as a side bonus, the way I figure it.
I'm not terribly picky about the female protagonsits they present, more what systems they're on. Unless they all look like the woman from X-Blades as that'd be a bit much.
I'm just hoping for some law of probability to kick in that with many female protagonists, they all will be unique.

The smaller games to better fit demands idea is a nice idea, though. As much as I loathe Ubisoft for saying they think Beyond Good and Evil is a mistake, and giving flak for Child of Light, making Assassin's Creed Liberation HD for ps3 and sellling it for 19.99 and Blood Dragon on the cheap (I forget the exact cost) seems like a move for making smaller scale games that can better fit more niche demands.
Hopefully the middle range cost games will help create a new business model revolving around them.
Which could lead to some crowd funding utilizing games.

Crowdfunding, thinking about it sounds like a good suppliment to cover costs instead of covering the whole thing.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

In way of the samurai, you are called "he" "him" and generally referred to as a man no matter what. There's no ambiguous language like in Saints Row 2,3, and 4.

That's hilarious. I don't think you can take that to heart. I definitely wouldn't take it to mean anything since WOTS has some of the worst localization I've seen. The English is horrible, as are the graphics, the animations, the Japanese voice acting... I actually am a fan of the series, honest.

Oh, no I don't take it to heart. I love the series, myself! The sword play, the character customization, the wackiness. The series is a welcome balance of things.
I didn't buy WotS 1, 3, and 4 (I missed 2.) coz I hate the series. It's largely coz they lewt you customize the main character into looking like a woman, and the pseudo-lesbianism is kinda nice.

Most of the stuff in the series doesn't bother me.

I'm just saying that gender select games don't exactly create a deep story taking into account gender.