The Needles: Lose the Dude
- Thread starter Andy Chalk
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Satire, sure, but it got me thinking. I guess my confusion comes from why it matters. I could care less about what bits Our Hero has got as long as he or she is interesting and likable. How much do you think I, as a certified lady-type person, actually relate to Lara Croft? We both wear bras, sure, but that's about the beginning and the end of the similarities between Ms Croft and yours truly. If you relate to and admire a character it should be because they have qualities you admire and want to aspire to, not because their chromosomes match your own. Sharing the same netherbits with a character does not automatically mean you understand everything they're going through, nor should having an X to someone's Y mean you'll never grasp what they're feeling.
Yes, the leads in "casual" games are predominantly female, and I suppose that's because that's the most vocal market that's playing them. If you cruise through the Big Fish Games forums for any given game, it's probably about a 70% Panty Party. I'm not saying these games aren't "for" male gamers, I'm saying the biggest, LOUDEST, and, most importantly, visibly active part of that audience is made up of the wimmins. I'm not exactly sure why. I always figured it was because guys were off doing guy stuff, like lifting ham and talking about bosoms in gravelly voices.
Look at it this way; for years, before "casual" gaming really hit its stride, we womenfolk had VERY few female leads. And that was fine, you know; I played my Harvest Moon or my Mario or whatever and it never bothered me that there were THINGS in that character's trousers I would never understand. It wasn't until recently ("recently" here being the last, eh, ten years or so?) that we saw a massive upsurge in female heroines in mainstream gaming, or at least the added capability to play as one. I liked it because running around as Jill Valentine was cool. I suspect some guys liked it because they liked watching Jill Valentin's metronome butt ticking back and forth in those tight pants of hers.
I guess my question is; what qualities do people imagine a male lead could have that you're being deprived of, and a female lead cannot have? I'm not saying this to be prickly, I'm just curious. If you look at "boy" movies, the ones aimed at younger kids, they teach toughness and camaraderie and resilience. Conversely, young chicks get heroines who teach them about kindness and gentleness and respect. Shouldn't all those traits be good things to have regardless of gender? Maybe it's time we stopped obsessing over whether our characters are male or female, and started thinking about what a real "hero" should be.
Yes, the leads in "casual" games are predominantly female, and I suppose that's because that's the most vocal market that's playing them. If you cruise through the Big Fish Games forums for any given game, it's probably about a 70% Panty Party. I'm not saying these games aren't "for" male gamers, I'm saying the biggest, LOUDEST, and, most importantly, visibly active part of that audience is made up of the wimmins. I'm not exactly sure why. I always figured it was because guys were off doing guy stuff, like lifting ham and talking about bosoms in gravelly voices.
Look at it this way; for years, before "casual" gaming really hit its stride, we womenfolk had VERY few female leads. And that was fine, you know; I played my Harvest Moon or my Mario or whatever and it never bothered me that there were THINGS in that character's trousers I would never understand. It wasn't until recently ("recently" here being the last, eh, ten years or so?) that we saw a massive upsurge in female heroines in mainstream gaming, or at least the added capability to play as one. I liked it because running around as Jill Valentine was cool. I suspect some guys liked it because they liked watching Jill Valentin's metronome butt ticking back and forth in those tight pants of hers.
I guess my question is; what qualities do people imagine a male lead could have that you're being deprived of, and a female lead cannot have? I'm not saying this to be prickly, I'm just curious. If you look at "boy" movies, the ones aimed at younger kids, they teach toughness and camaraderie and resilience. Conversely, young chicks get heroines who teach them about kindness and gentleness and respect. Shouldn't all those traits be good things to have regardless of gender? Maybe it's time we stopped obsessing over whether our characters are male or female, and started thinking about what a real "hero" should be.
Neither gender Shepard takes the lead? If you mean Shepard on the cover it's Stereotypical Soldier Shepard, he exists to be the simplest and blandest action hero.maxben said:
You wacky women and your sensible approaches to things...Dora said:
Seriously, I agree. Fem-Shepard isn't any less heroic on interesting because the is a Man-Shepard. I think it is the same thing that someone on here (can't think of who) put in an article about stupid things they keep doing with Protagonists and making the hero "relatable" was on there and I agree. I'm not an heroic figure, I'm a nerdy guy who lives on planet earth on this layer of reality so the master chief and myslef don't have a huge array of commonalities (just like you and Lara). I'm never going to make the mistake that I am that guy or that I could resonably become that guy. I'm not him and I don't want to be him in regular life. I have no desire to be a party to violence since it involves terrible violence.
And the really pretty women have three X's.Matt_LRR said:
Okay, bad joke aside, I don't get it. I read the comments, and I keep seeing the word "satire" come up, but for a change it's gone way over my head.
Can someone simplify?
Sorry, but all I see here is a mockery of a legitimate argument.
The gender of protagonists is an irrelevant strawman and the casual game argument doesn't fly either (C J Davies made the point in this week's issue of the Escapist that casual games are a completely distinct medium, as different from "core" games as pulp fiction is from proper literature). I don't want a two-tier system like we have in Hollywood, where you have gung-ho action movies for the guys and "chick flics" for the girls. We ought to be able to meet in the middle and create something like, to pick a relatively inclusive franchise at random, Firefly. That includes aspects that appeal to the archetypes of both sexes, and is better for it.
FWIW, I think it's a problem with the institutional culture of the industry, not gamers themselves. Male and female gamers would be equally happy to see more inclusivity in the games they play, but the industry is so male-dominated that there just isn't the drive to bring that about. We need more girls to go into game design.
The gender of protagonists is an irrelevant strawman and the casual game argument doesn't fly either (C J Davies made the point in this week's issue of the Escapist that casual games are a completely distinct medium, as different from "core" games as pulp fiction is from proper literature). I don't want a two-tier system like we have in Hollywood, where you have gung-ho action movies for the guys and "chick flics" for the girls. We ought to be able to meet in the middle and create something like, to pick a relatively inclusive franchise at random, Firefly. That includes aspects that appeal to the archetypes of both sexes, and is better for it.
FWIW, I think it's a problem with the institutional culture of the industry, not gamers themselves. Male and female gamers would be equally happy to see more inclusivity in the games they play, but the industry is so male-dominated that there just isn't the drive to bring that about. We need more girls to go into game design.
I don't play metroid so yeah, no lead females in any game I play except dark alliance games. Don't see why everyone's making a huff over no female leads since the main companies aren't changing the way they churn out games because The Escapist pointed something out.
Offhand I would say this is a sort of follow-up to another article pointing out allegations made against certain video game developers that accused them of using a male lead cast because "female leads can't sell games". Any and all (and there's a lot of it) debate to the contrary of that statement or the thread it's posted in aside, a follow-up wrapped, deep-fried, dressed and beaten beyond recognition with satire would therefore be my take on things here. The multitude of threads centering around Activision would seem to support this. In other words,Ruzinus said:
Ride the wave.
Maybe I'm being a humorless bastard for seeing your article this way Mr. Chalk, but your column comes across as a mean-spirited expression of male privilege. This bit right here in particular stings a particularly hard read satirically:
Believe it or not, there are a lot of male gamers out there and they want to play. Even more importantly, they want to be included. They want to say yes, I am trying to solve my mentor's murder and save the world from a diabolical plot by uncovering the ancient and magical treasure of Ra, and I'm doing it with testicles!
To me, the article seems to be mocking the suggestion that women wishing to be taken seriously as leads in other genres as either unnecessary or quaint; people who wish companies to move towards some sort of progressive gender representation want some sort of paternalistic nanny-state. Or maybe, unlike the rest of the article, the final paragraph is to be taken in earnest?
This is not good satire. The column lacks a thesis, and leaves the reader confused as to what the author's intent is. Have we read a piece mocking women asking for representation in action games? Are we seeing a misguided attempt to show what inequality feels like from a male perspective? Is this merely a demonstration that companies will stick to their target demographics with the media they design?
Frankly, I've read this piece three times now and I'm still not sure.
Also
My hint meter is full, my chromosome is X and by God, I will not rest until my Big Fish Game Club card is full!
Believe it or not, there are a lot of male gamers out there and they want to play. Even more importantly, they want to be included. They want to say yes, I am trying to solve my mentor's murder and save the world from a diabolical plot by uncovering the ancient and magical treasure of Ra, and I'm doing it with testicles!
To me, the article seems to be mocking the suggestion that women wishing to be taken seriously as leads in other genres as either unnecessary or quaint; people who wish companies to move towards some sort of progressive gender representation want some sort of paternalistic nanny-state. Or maybe, unlike the rest of the article, the final paragraph is to be taken in earnest?
This is not good satire. The column lacks a thesis, and leaves the reader confused as to what the author's intent is. Have we read a piece mocking women asking for representation in action games? Are we seeing a misguided attempt to show what inequality feels like from a male perspective? Is this merely a demonstration that companies will stick to their target demographics with the media they design?
Frankly, I've read this piece three times now and I'm still not sure.
Also
My hint meter is full, my chromosome is X and by God, I will not rest until my Big Fish Game Club card is full!
Indeed.Matt_LRR said:
I'm getting the feeling that I read a different article than everyone else. To me, Andy's point was simply that the "target audience" for a game and the gender of it's protagonist do not have to be linked at all. It's also about how in some cases that sort of gender assignment is part of what may breed certain assumptions about target demographics in the first place. Games with a main character shouldn't have the sex of the lead character chosen because it's a hardcore action game OR if it's a mystery driven puzzle game. A character of any race, gender and/or sexual orientation (to take the next logical step) can and should be the hero of any genre of game, and we all like playing as interesting, strong and developed characters regardless of what type of game we're playing.
It felt like he was taking a slight jab at all the guys that don't believe that diversity is important when it comes to video games by trying to put them in the perspective of the girl gamers that do have problems with the way things currently are. And I thought he did a pretty good job with it.
it seemed like all the arguments that guys were saying "yeah, doesnt matter." or "im a guy; so dont care/doesnt matter" to almost word to word but with inverted genders, could have been funnier.
and for those of you who were confused: im pretty sure his tounge was so far into his cheek it would have induced serious squick and sympathetic pain reactions if he had posted a picture.
and for those of you who were confused: im pretty sure his tounge was so far into his cheek it would have induced serious squick and sympathetic pain reactions if he had posted a picture.
I admit it, I did a double take on reading this. Very amusing. In a lot of discussions about "why are all video game characters men" people rarely bother to look at the adventure and puzzle game catagories. Ditto when people talk about games not being made for girls.
I made a few similar points in various debates, my favorite example to point out is how many games there are in the "Nancy Drew" mystery game series.
Now that I read an article like this one it has gotten me wondering... usually I argue to point out that there is general parity between the number of male and female characters out there in video games.... in keeping with the audience. However I never really thought about how many distinct "hidden objects" games there are out there and how they all seem to almost invariably have female lead characters. It would be interesting if someone was able to compile a list of all titles over the last 3 years or so (irregardless of success) and see
if more male or female characters were the lead in games where a specific character was assigned. Alas I don't have the patience.
Still for an important job like this, perhaps The Escapist staff should pull out the big guns... make Yahtzee's next paycheck dependant on it. >
I made a few similar points in various debates, my favorite example to point out is how many games there are in the "Nancy Drew" mystery game series.
Now that I read an article like this one it has gotten me wondering... usually I argue to point out that there is general parity between the number of male and female characters out there in video games.... in keeping with the audience. However I never really thought about how many distinct "hidden objects" games there are out there and how they all seem to almost invariably have female lead characters. It would be interesting if someone was able to compile a list of all titles over the last 3 years or so (irregardless of success) and see
if more male or female characters were the lead in games where a specific character was assigned. Alas I don't have the patience.
Still for an important job like this, perhaps The Escapist staff should pull out the big guns... make Yahtzee's next paycheck dependant on it. >
So women complain that games made for girls are shallow and based on stereotypical activities like shopping, but men don't complain that games made for [18-24] males are about stereotypical activites like shooting each other.
I do complain and this has made me, and my alternate universe female counterpart, feel superior to everyone else. Thanks!
I do complain and this has made me, and my alternate universe female counterpart, feel superior to everyone else. Thanks!