The Needles: Lose the Dude

[MomoHime64]

Giant snip

Just thought I'd pop in to say I quite enjoyed the discussion going on here. I'd add more, but I don't feel like I've much more to contribute; I'd probably just repeat what you said in a shallower way. It's always nice to see a new user tackle things so thoroughly anyway, I'm sure you'll be a fine poster.

Thanks! I was sort of surprised to get so many responses from Andy Chalk - not used to that kind of feedback, especially when, well, I can be so verbose. But that's part of why I prefer the Escapist to the forums I visit - just glad that when I joined in on a topic, the original poster took the time to read through and respond to so many comments (not just mine, but many others' as well). Pretty darn awesome.

 

[Horben]

This article is more trolling than it is Jonathan Swift.

 

[Andy Chalk]

Honest truth, the day after this went up I started playing a new HOG in which the lead character is a big, burly, mean-looking dude. Interesting bit of timing there.

 

[Andy Chalk]

whoa dude

Wow, that's some serious bitterness there. Did you lose a job to a woman or something?

I don't see anything inherently wrong with the industry (or games themselves) being dominated by men, but suggesting that women simply cannot perform at the level of men strikes me as patently ludicrous. It's hardly surprising that there's been no "auteur games" from women, given their tiny presence in the industry, but it's crazy to see that as proof that it just can't happen.

(Feel free to reply when you can, if you like.)

 

[maxben]

Well if we're going to play this game there are a very specific set of reasons why militaries are predominately male and the higher up you go into the likes of commandoes and spec ops the more the percentile tips away from women.

Ah, but if we are to continue this I will point out that this is a military in the future.
There is very little reason to not have more women in tougher combat roles.
It is Sci Fi after all, if we can travel through space and colonize it why can there not be gender equality in the military?
In fact, it seems like the second will come before the first.

Since women can typically and consistently out perform men in physical professions? Women can withstand twice the pain a man can before it starts reducing performance? Women can do a lot of things but physical professions will be male dominant. It's a function of how we are made and have evolved. I'm not saying women can't achieve but it is usually with more time, training and resources expended for the same results. When the military looks at training cost will determine what happens.

Again, the problem is that you are equating the realistic with the Sci Fi.
And make no mistake, Mass Effect isn't traditional Sci Fi with the emphasis on the Science but the Star Wars Sci Fi with emphasis on the Fiction.
So in a genre that is meant to be limitless in its capabilities, much like fantasy and indeed the two are only separated with one being in space and one having dragons (though dragons in space would rock), the old generic societal expectations and pedestrian reality are supposed to matter?
Realistic limitations are supposed to matter?
Hell, if that was the case half the game wouldn't work.
Why does gender have to be realistic but not physics?

I'm not talking about gender parity in reality now, as you said that would make little sense in certain aspects such as evolutionary differences.
However, the limitation in games only exist because the developers decided they should.
I remember the Activision Rumor that they shied away from female main characters because they figured that their male demographic will be uncomfortable playing female characters.
It had nothing to do with the fact that a girl can't take as much pain because they create the rules not reality, but do to societal expectations they decided against having women lead.
And if you read that thread here on the Escapist, you will see that such unrealistic things like a woman being a mercenary will not break immersion because its "unrealistic" because no one really cares and many people think it would be kind of awesome.
Trinity was always cooler than Neo, Xena kicked Hercules' ass, and Buffy was more interesting than Angel.

If fiction, which represents our imagination, can't get over basic gender roles what's the point of having fiction at all?

 

[manythings]

Since women can typically and consistently out perform men in physical professions? Women can withstand twice the pain a man can before it starts reducing performance? Women can do a lot of things but physical professions will be male dominant. It's a function of how we are made and have evolved. I'm not saying women can't achieve but it is usually with more time, training and resources expended for the same results. When the military looks at training cost will determine what happens.

Again, the problem is that you are equating the realistic with the Sci Fi.
And make no mistake, Mass Effect isn't traditional Sci Fi with the emphasis on the Science but the Star Wars Sci Fi with emphasis on the Fiction.
So in a genre that is meant to be limitless in its capabilities, much like fantasy and indeed the two are only separated with one being in space and one having dragons (though dragons in space would rock), the old generic societal expectations and pedestrian reality are supposed to matter?
Realistic limitations are supposed to matter?
Hell, if that was the case half the game wouldn't work.
Why does gender have to be realistic but not physics?

I'm not talking about gender parity in reality now, as you said that would make little sense in certain aspects such as evolutionary differences.
However, the limitation in games only exist because the developers decided they should.
I remember the Activision Rumor that they shied away from female main characters because they figured that their male demographic will be uncomfortable playing female characters.
It had nothing to do with the fact that a girl can't take as much pain because they create the rules not reality, but do to societal expectations they decided against having women lead.
And if you read that thread here on the Escapist, you will see that such unrealistic things like a woman being a mercenary will not break immersion because its "unrealistic" because no one really cares and many people think it would be kind of awesome.
Trinity was always cooler than Neo, Xena kicked Hercules' ass, and Buffy was more interesting than Angel.

If fiction, which represents our imagination, can't get over basic gender roles what's the point of having fiction at all?

Oh. See I thought we were talking about the gender divide of reality and it's affect on fiction and the perception of "What can happen" not how we shouldn't allow fiction to be influenced by the gender divide. In that case I'm on your side of the fence, we do need to ditch the blandity of the grizzled action guy (not entirely retire it since that guy does exist) in favour of characters that can fit just as well. That being said no super hot, 18 year old, big-titted blondes should be in there since... well just no.

Trinity was cooler than Neo after the first one since they made him the Lord Jesus Christ and once you've done that how does a character grow? Also I'll have to argue since I think Angel went to a lot more interesting places than buffy did.

Space dragons would also be kick ass.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

Why are lead characters in videogames almost always women?

I see what you did there, and I approve.

 

[Chipperz]

Wow, that's some serious bitterness there. Did you lose a job to a woman or something?

Wow, that's a pretty standard SHAME ON YOU EVIL MALE FOR TELLING THE TRUTH YOU MUST HAVE SOME ULTERIOR MOTIVATION line, there. Are you so utterly subservient to women because they haven't given you any lately that you'll tell any lie and ignore any truth for them?

I don't have to lie, creatively stretch the truth, or try to imply nonexistent motivations because women already want to have sex with me. It's their job to justify themselves to me, not the other way around.

Protip - excessive capslock and formatting gives you away as a liar. Noone in their right mind wants to have sex with a twelve year old.

OT - I find that, with the increase in character creation and the ability for the player to make a more personalised avatar, this argument is becoming less and less valid in general. BioWare and Bethesda continuously prove that it's possible to have excellent stories (or, in BioWare's case, an excellent story, repackaged with aliens/dragons as appropriate) that is utterly gender neutral, and I can't see it being too long before the vast majority of games have some kind of 'character select', even if they all have the same/similar name/designation to cut down on voice acting...

 

[ZetaAnime]

I don't know why more and more women are the main character of popular games my guess would be that the companies think by having a sexy lady it will attract more of a guy population to play just because your playing as a hot main character. But i rather play as a bad ass dude then a sexy chick for one women are limited in games to a certain amount of ideas to do while a dude character can pretty much tear off a dude's head eat his brain while he kills the mafia. There are no games or ideas like that for women. By having women main characters it limits the badassness to a game.
TIMBAP_AJR

 

[Andy Chalk]

It's their job to justify themselves to me, not the other way around.

This is the kind of nonsense that ends conversations. I'm not sure if you're playing up some kind of "Angry Forum Man" persona or if you really are that thick but either way, it's clear we're done here.

 

[XMark]

Hahaha, I was baffled for the first couple of paragraphs, then realized it's a parody of articles about the female perspective on games and gamers. Does make you think, though. If women had a larger representation in the gaming community, how would that effect game design, storylines, and character designs?

 

[Eponet]

Where shooters are almost always guys, puzzles tend to be female characters (think Portal).

I'm probably just sheltered, but most of the puzzle games I've played have had a male lead, but most of the puzzle games I've played were made by Yahtzee.

 

[Eponet]

Buffy was more interesting than Angel.

While I agree with almost everything else you said, in this case, it's heavily subjective. Personally, I thought Angel was easily the more interesting of the two, or maybe it's just that the directing was superior. Being the better looking of the two helped as well, maybe.

 

[JaketheLate]

the reason there are so many female main characters in games is a simple one: Men are motivated and driven by sex. The industry assumes that we men want to see dome tits on screen, and being in charge of them means we can find the best angle to see them.

 

[JaketheLate]

Buffy was more interesting than Angel.

While I agree with almost everything else you said, in this case, it's heavily subjective. Personally, I thought Angel was easily the more interesting of the two, or maybe it's just that the directing was superior. Being the better looking of the two helped as well, maybe.

I completely agree with you in principal.
Angel was more interesting because he had actual conflict.
Buffy's biggest worry was that her awesome superpowers were inexplicably putting her loved ones at risk, but she never really solved it, unless you count bringing her sister up to the front lines as 'fixing it."
Angel struggled with being something he hated, and being in love with someone who's divine purpose was to kill him apparently. He started out as the bad guy looking to be redeemed, and he grew as a character.